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Thread: Phase One and LR

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Phase One and LR

    I just wanted to show you folks how bad LR really is with the Phase files. Adobe is not even reasonable close with there files. We all seen this image in C1 but LR is a complete disaster. First the image is coming in at 2650 Kelvin temp with a MINUS 71 tint and underexposed by a stop. Now I know different programs have different color temps but this is so far off it is completely unusable. This is how it came in. Now frankly my friends if I had to process like this everyday this far off i would rather deliver newspapers instead. Obviously there is absolutely no support for Phase with Adobe. At least from my seat this is not supporting there files . This sucks to put it bluntly. Now this clearly is not a Phase issue let me say that right up front because C1 is almost right on the money with these files. Small tweaks and your home this is like the caveman days.
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Just for the record C1 is about 5200 Kelvin and plus 2 color temp , give or take a little. That would be normal for this time in the morning around 8:30 am
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Okay just to get even reasonable close . i WB off the webbing underneath the gurney . Came up with 3000 kelvin and minus 68 color tint and ONE full stop of exposure to get reasonable close. Plus i used -5 saturation. Now i won't even try to fine tune this to get it perfect waste of time because this program will never see my Phase files again until Adobe does something here. Now am i being hard on Adobe , well yes i am . If they want to be a player in raw processing than they need to support everything they can in all the camera and backs. Now i do love Adobe so don't get me wrong but this is unusable program for me and my Phase back.

    Let me add something as a photographer for many years we are taught kelvin temp. With film and with digital and these numbers mean something to us and WB or being at a neutral state . We all know tungsten is 3200 and daylight is 5500 kelvin. So if you are shooting daylight that 3000 kelvin just throws all that you learned into the trash. Sorry this is just not right for us shooters. Okay bitch moment off but hopefully you see my point. Yes i had 2 espresso's already. LOL
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    What is really bad is the 1 stop off or more coming in. So when folks are running tests using ACR and Phase files than those tests are off right out of the gate.
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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Guy,

    What color were the belts holding the patient? The color here reminds me of the colors we were seeing when the M8 first came out.

    Steve

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Guy, your observations and thoughts are consistent with mine.

    I don't have time right now, but I think that it would be good to profile the backs and load the profile when using ACR. I don't use LR, so I'm not sure how the app. handles them, but I think there's a mechanism to use a custom profile like in ACR 4.x.

    I think it was Stuart (sorry if I'm not remembering and crediting the wrong person) who said that he used this script for profiling his back: http://21stcenturyshoebox.com/tools/ACRcalibrator.html

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    At least use the Lightroom file to layer mask back some detail in the blown out white sleeve and arm.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Guy,

    What color were the belts holding the patient? The color here reminds me of the colors we were seeing when the M8 first came out.

    Steve
    I think they are burgundy if I remember correctly.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    At least use the Lightroom file to layer mask back some detail in the blown out white sleeve and arm.
    Well I could just use some recovery to save it also . This was just straight conversion just to show how far off it really is. This program is just not tuned to the Phase files and Adobe needs to support it better . I'm not going to try and make it better just to far off for me to work with this program when C1 does a much better job at it. The only real major difference is the library for me which I did not use much anyway.
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    OR
    a simple curve to the Lightroom file yields arm and sleeve not so blown out:

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Exactly Billy but still needs a lot of color adjustment which who wants to work that hard at it. LOL

    I'm lazy . LOL

    But I do hope we will see more support from Adobe on this. For a lot of folks LR is there standard processor and with other camera's. Lot's of folks with Canons, Nikons and leica's etc like to use one program to do it all. For Phase owners this needs some help
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I could just use some recovery to save it also . This was just straight conversion just to show how far off it really is. This program is just not tuned to the Phase files and Adobe needs to support it better . I'm not going to try and make it better just to far off for me to work with this program when C1 does a much better job at it.
    Yes, of course you have to fiddle with all the controls.
    I don't expect the default settings of any raw converter to give the ideal results.
    When I use C1, practically every slider and each channel of the curves is tweaked.
    Last edited by BJNY; 26th June 2008 at 07:59.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Ah, but there is a bit of difference between slightly tweaking the sliders for adjustment, and having to do significantly more work just to get to a more "normal" looking image, or one that was actually captured by the camera/back. With a RAW file, one can pretty much do almost anything to get things where they want. In the case of ACR/LR, as I have commented on many times, and as Guy is pointing out, the default conversion for some (many?) files is not all that good. The yellows and reds are usually oversaturated, and off tone. That may be adjusted back, but not without a fair amount of work. In other words, ACR/LR tend to introduce things in the conversion that require more work just to get things closer to what one thinks they have captured. I find this to be true for Leica and Canon 1DsMkII files. The Canon 1DMkII files are not as bad, but there are always some odd artifacts, and the yellows and reds are still not right. Not as objectionable as some other files, but still not quite correct without a lot of tweaking. While RAW Developer, Aperture, C1, DPP and other apps get things a lot closer right from the start, and usually only require very minor adjustments.

    Perhaps creating specific camera profiles for ACR/LR will help, but the default is not pretty. Makes everything tend to look like overdone postcards or something. Some may like that, but it does make other things look ugly, especially where contrast and saturation may be high to start, as in Guy's shots.

    Not bashing here. As a RAW converter that is so widely used, it really should have better conversions than it offers. If others can get there, not sure why Adobe has such a hard time with so many files.

    LJ

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Thanks LJ and yes that was sort of my point . Sure you can get the file to look great but the big shifts in adjustments is not easy to do and for folks that may not have great raw processing know how, this could be a very tough task. No convertor will be spot on and there will always adjustments to be made. What you want is to make as little as needed. Otherwise you are just fighting a tough battle. I think for Phase folks that want to use LR than start thinking or making some presets so when you import it makes some of the big adjustments for you . One right off the bat is plus 1 stop. Hopefully when threads like his come up than it get's noticed and folks at Adobe can get some better defaults going. This is not to bash Adobe far from it but more intended to say hey folks can you get us something to start with out of the gate that is more user friendly. Push Push and Push harder to get support is always a good thing in the whole industry for us end users, this is just one example.
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    After using both LR and C1 on my Phase files, I can concur there is no contest -- by comparison to C1, LR/ACR sucks on Phase files for color, gamma and exposure. Yes you can "get there" with LR/ACR, but it requires significantly more effort and even the best result is clearly inferior to a quickly-processed C1 conversion. FTR, I have been a huge LR/ACR user with all my previous cameras including the M8 which I knew also generated slightly better files from C1. So to be really clear, my comments here are not a bash on LR/ACR, just a note that for Phase files, C1 is the clear leader.

    My .02,
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Yes you can "get there" with LR/ACR, but it requires significantly more effort and even the best result is clearly inferior to a quickly-processed C1 conversion.
    Can't say I'm with you on this one 100%, Jack. Significantly more effort? Yes. Even the best result clearly inferior to... a C1 conversion? Not in my experience.

    I do not deny that the ACR/LR default rendering is very poor, and requires extra work and time to get it right. I can understand anyone not wishing to spend the time to do this, when C1 can get you there just about right away.

    But with just a few exceptions, if I spend the time in ACR/LR, I can develop the same image in ACR/LR and C1 and cannot tell which did which afterward.

    So why do I even bother with ACR/LR if the C1 capture gives a great result out of the box?

    ACR/LR integrates into Adobe's non-destructive workflow. This means that I can process my images from start to finish without ever touching the pixels. Improvements in demosaicing technology will show in images I've already processed in the past. A non-destructive workflow allows me to take a look and feel, or even aspects of a look and feel from one image and apply it to others, to create a thematically consistent project, for example.

    Those advantages (as well as others) are worth something to me, and it's why I put up with the hassle of having to dial in the color (and details) with ACR/LR. I thought it was worth pointing out to folks that you almost always "can get there from here" (in terms of rivalling C1 quality) when using ACR/LR for assuming you can afford/want to put in the extra time and effort.

    -Brad
    Last edited by BradleyGibson; 26th June 2008 at 09:13.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    So why do I even bother with ACR/LR if the C1 capture gives a great result out of the box?

    ACR/LR integrates into Adobe's non-destructive workflow. This means that I can process my images from start to finish without ever touching the pixels.
    Neither does C1, the raw remains the raw with a sidecar file for the adjustments, just like LR/ACR. What it puts out is a full new image file though, if that's what you mean, but the raw remains untouched.

    What many folks don't like is C1 puts the sidecar files in a C1 folder inside the same directory where the raw image was processed from, regardless of where it is. This is why LR demands you import files to your library (even if you leave them in another location) before you process them, so it can keep the sidecar files all in one place. Personally, I *hated* having to import in LR (and dedicating a special drive to that frigging library ), but have no issues with C1 folders inside my image directories. But that's me and I respect other folks preferences vary

    Cheers,
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    You can delete those folders also , so if you bring them back in the adjustments are not there and back to pure raw. I think there are other ways to do this also and need to ask Doug
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    This is what my esteemed colleague James Russell says about Lightroom:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...5&#entry198555

    The P30 and all the phase process fine in lightroom, though you will have to make your own presets for color as adobe reads the files differently than the manufactuers software and that holds true for all camera makes, including the dslrs, not just a phase file.

    We shot last week tethered to 3.78 and ran a hot folder to lightroom with specific presets for each session and though the previews come up slower, it gave the AD a much closer look as to where the final photograpph will go in post, as lightroom has the most control of any raw conversion program I've used.




    James also uses Iridient's Raw Developer for the 50% of his hero files:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...8&#entry202318

    I process at least half my single files to finish in Brian's Raw Developer because it just has the best look for every camera I use.
    It's a little clunky, not that great for batching but for a single file, man it's the digital answer to make your own beautiful film.

  20. #20
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I just wanted to show you folks how bad LR really is with the Phase files. Adobe is not even reasonable close with there files. We all seen this image in C1 but LR is a complete disaster
    ACR sucks with cameras, which are sold in the tens and hundreds of thousands. I guess the MFDBs are supported only so that they can claim to support all modern cameras.

    Particularly the color is an issue. The person calibrating ACR for the cameras must have a strange taste.

    First the image is coming in at 2650 Kelvin temp with a MINUS 71 tint
    Totally irrelevant.

    and underexposed by a stop
    This shot is at ISO 200; ACR somehow regards this one as the "base" (for the P25+), i.e. it does not get adjusted automatically. Were it ISO 100, ACR woud adjust the intensity by *minus one EV*.

    This is a particularly strange issue with ACR: Adobe decided to "unify" the ISOs among all cameras. Thus, many raw images get plus or minus adjustments (which are not shown on the exposure slider!), in order to "rectify" their ISO characteristics. Olus, methink one Phase One camera has been looked at for years ago by Adobe and all further models are treated based on that result.

    Now, to the image in question: here is the exposure.



    This is 2/3 EV lower than the right edge. "Logically" it is overexposed, because ISO 200 is meant to be increased by 1 EV in raw processing, but ACR does that with ISO 400.

    Btw, the sleeve is not blown, as is nothing else. Here is a capture showing the sleeve, only to demonstrate, that every detail has been captured:



    When understanding some of ACR's tricks, the image can be processed quite well, except for the colors:

    Screen capture from ACR

    I picked WB on the white sleeve of the lady.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Neither does C1, the raw remains the raw with a sidecar file for the adjustments, just like LR/ACR. What it puts out is a full new image file though, if that's what you mean, but the raw remains untouched.
    Yes, this is true assuming you don't need any tools beyond what C1 offers. But if you have need for further local retouches, more sophisticated noise reduction, composite blending, etc., you'll likely need to go to Photoshop, which is where the C1 workflow breaks down for me--it forces a destructive develop (.tiff) or you'll have to re-develop in ACR (discarding all your hard work in C1).

    Like in everything else, I agree with you that every tool has its use. I only spoke up to weigh in on the notion that an ACR/LR conversion is always inferior to a C1 conversion.

    Best regards,
    Brad

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    Yes, this is true assuming you don't need any tools beyond what C1 offers. But if you have need for further local retouches, more sophisticated noise reduction, composite blending, etc., you'll likely need to go to Photoshop, which is where the C1 workflow breaks down for me--it forces a destructive develop (.tiff) or you'll have to re-develop in ACR (discarding all your hard work in C1).
    Bradley, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I process a raw in C1 and output it to say a 16-bit .tiff for work in CS, how is anything I do to that .tiff destructive to the original raw? Moreover, I use a layered workflow in CS to avoid destructive edits there. In fact, this is a large part of what we teach on the workshops...

    Granted, there are still a few things in CS that we might need to do that will require direct alteration of the .tiff pixels, so this would be considered destructive to the .tiff. But all that occurs inside CS and the raw remains un-touched -- it's still a raw with just a sidecar file showing a set of adjustments. Also, if we take the same file and output it from LR or ACR, it would likely require a similar destructive edit in CS to get to the same point, so we're back to it being caused by a limitation of CS, not something caused by either (or any) raw converter.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    This would also be the case for Aperture. All of the Raw processors that i know of are non destructive to the original raw. After the raw processor it becomes a PS issue for further adjustments or manipulation. I am pretty sure leaf Capture and the Sinar programs work in the same fashion. Maybe I am misunderstanding this also.
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Ah, I think I see the misunderstanding...

    Demosaicing to a tiff is the destructive operation. (By destructive, I don't mean that you're damaging the original file, I mean that the data you are now working with has been permanently altered, and often even clipped.)

    Specifically, once you've developed to a .tiff, you have forever locked the image to today's demosaicing algorithm as well as clipped any highlights beyond whatever is 'white' in your developed tiff. Further tonal adjustments in PS may require discarding the current file, returning to C1 and re-developing for optimal quality.

    If you haven't tried it already, try holding down the alt key in Adobe Camera Raw. One of the options at the bottom of the screen should read "Open Object". This will develop as a Photoshop Smart Object, and you can double-click this layer to go back and forth into the raw domain, even after you've applied edits on other layers.

    For many folks, granted, this wouldn't be enough of a benefit to switch raw converters, but for some, it's compelling enough to wade through the hassle of optimizing a develop in ACR/LR.

    Best regards,
    -Brad

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Bradley, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I process a raw in C1 and output it to say a 16-bit .tiff for work in CS, how is anything I do to that .tiff destructive to the original raw? Moreover, I use a layered workflow in CS to avoid destructive edits there. In fact, this is a large part of what we teach on the workshops...

    Granted, there are still a few things in CS that we might need to do that will require direct alteration of the .tiff pixels, so this would be considered destructive to the .tiff. But all that occurs inside CS and the raw remains un-touched -- it's still a raw with just a sidecar file showing a set of adjustments. Also, if we take the same file and output it from LR or ACR, it would likely require a similar destructive edit in CS to get to the same point, so we're back to it being caused by a limitation of CS, not something caused by either (or any) raw converter.

  25. #25
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Exactly, Billy.

    No RAW processor will have the right settings (default) when throwing files in. Create your own settings, with the type of files you have, save them and use them as default thereafter. In other words, LR/ACR can produce identical images without having more work or correction to do.

    Simply create the correct starting point (pre-set) and use it as a default.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    This is what my esteemed colleague James Russell says about Lightroom:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...5&#entry198555

    The P30 and all the phase process fine in lightroom, though you will have to make your own presets for color as adobe reads the files differently than the manufactuers software and that holds true for all camera makes, including the dslrs, not just a phase file.

    We shot last week tethered to 3.78 and ran a hot folder to lightroom with specific presets for each session and though the previews come up slower, it gave the AD a much closer look as to where the final photograpph will go in post, as lightroom has the most control of any raw conversion program I've used.




    James also uses Iridient's Raw Developer for the 50% of his hero files:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...8&#entry202318

    I process at least half my single files to finish in Brian's Raw Developer because it just has the best look for every camera I use.
    It's a little clunky, not that great for batching but for a single file, man it's the digital answer to make your own beautiful film.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Guy's my point being is it is so far off as a default to start with that it needs attention from Adobe. I said the same thing in post 14 about creating presets for it. But the issue here is it is not even in the same ball park and it should not be like that. This is NOT a couple points either way this is major major adjustments to get something even close.

    Theirry if a Sinar back was this far off in any program you would be screaming about it. This needs Adobes support and attention. Now I love James but he has a whole team to solve some of these kinds of issues. Please i am not the village idiot here and know my way around the block remember i actually teach this stuff, this is a Adobe issue not a user issue. Nothing should be this far off the mark with software.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Guy, there is an easy fix to your problem. Save the file as DNG in C1 4.1, open in LR and voilą, no difference in exposure. And if you calibrate your back in both programs the color will be close to identical. Enjoy

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Actually rather not even bother with LR besides everything else it has way to much red in the images and this has been a ongoing issue with the M8, D300, ZD and Phase images. Also adds contrast to everyone of these camera's more so than C1. Not that i am a C1 freak at all but LR is a little easier workflow wise to get a lot of files done fast. Also why bother with two raw converters . If I have to open it in C1 just process there to save time
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually rather not even bother with LR besides everything else it has way to much red in the images and this has been a ongoing issue with the M8, D300, ZD and Phase images. Also adds contrast to everyone of these camera's more so than C1. Not that i am a C1 freak at all but LR is a little easier workflow wise to get a lot of files done fast. Also why bother with two raw converters . If I have to open it in C1 just process there to save time
    First of all, the calibration fixes the color problems you are referring to (C1 needs calibration too, mine was way off on the greens and blues) Second, I use LR because it has certain unique features C1 doesn't have (like the clarity slider), and overall manipulation is much more effective and easy in LR. But I guess if you don't do much post on your photos C1 will do the trick for you.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    James also uses Iridient's Raw Developer for the 50% of his hero files:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...8&#entry202318

    I process at least half my single files to finish in Brian's Raw Developer because it just has the best look for every camera I use.
    It's a little clunky, not that great for batching but for a single file, man it's the digital answer to make your own beautiful film.
    Billy,
    Not sure I have anything that qualifies as a hero file but I've been a big fan of RAW Developer for years. Just discovered that it handles the DNG's from Sinar which is nice if you have the time and inclination to work with multiple programs.

  31. #31
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    Ah, I think I see the misunderstanding...

    Demosaicing to a tiff is the destructive operation. (By destructive, I don't mean that you're damaging the original file, I mean that the data you are now working with has been permanently altered, and often even clipped.)
    Ah, I understand your meaning now, and we differ in our workflow strategy... I agree that by your definition, demosaicing is -- or at least can be -- destructive. BUT if done PROPERLY it won't necessarily clip or lose anything. (It can even gain, but that would be considered destructive by many too )

    Several different approaches, and again, this is something we cover at length on our raw processing and CS workshops. Usually one plans on either outputting as close to perfect file from the raw converter as possible, or making a conscious decision to optimize said file with the goal of later processing in CS. If your goal is the first, then you may (or may not) process even to include minor clips in shadows and highlights to get the file's appearance to your liking and be done. If the latter is your goal, then you definitely want to process the raw so nothing gets lost during the demosaicing, giving you the maximum file data to work with in CS.

    I often use smart objects inside CS for certain adjustments, but do not feel there is great need (for my workflow) to treat a raw conversion as one. In the worst case, if I screw it up in CS post I can start over, and in using workflow option 2 above I have not had to do that for a long time -- probably since after CS2 was released...

    Finally, what is most important to me is the technical quality of the finished product, and speaking only for my Phase files C1 does a FAR superior job on conversion than LR/ACR from a technical standpoint. To be really clear, I am not suggesting C1 is the best raw converter for everybody and every camera, and I am not suggesting it is perfect (it isn't), I'm only stating that it does a superior job with my Phase files.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  32. #32
    Jamie Roberts
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    It's worth acknowledging that from what I've heard in the industry, Adobe is changing the colour model in the next version of Lightroom, which pretty much acknowledges that even with "calibration" there are issues (easy to see, btw, try getting rid of IR artifacts from an M8 in LR. Good luck!).

    Anyway, according to folks who work with Adobe, they are using a form of profiling next time out--not ICC profiling, they still think those are rendering-limited--but profiles nonetheless. Beyond that their NDA kicked in and they couldn't say any more.

    So Adobe is working on this, and while they would never come out and say "we have colour problems" it's pretty obvious they need to make some out-of-the-box (and customized) improvements.

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Billy,
    Not sure I have anything that qualifies as a hero file but I've been a big fan of RAW Developer for years. Just discovered that it handles the DNG's from Sinar which is nice if you have the time and inclination to work with multiple programs.
    I know several MFDB owners (all different brands) who swear by Raw Developer.
    Amazing what Brian achieves by his lonesome.

  34. #34
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    I need to download it again. I used it with my M8's for awhile there and it did a really nice job. Also did a nice job with B&W which was a lot of fun playing around with his controls for different effects. I agree he does do a great job by his lonesome
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  35. #35
    Jamie Roberts
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    {snipped} Usually one plans on either outputting as close to perfect file from the raw converter as possible, or making a conscious decision to optimize said file with the goal of later processing in CS. If your goal is the first, then you may (or may not) process even to include minor clips in shadows and highlights to get the file's appearance to your liking and be done. If the latter is your goal, then you definitely want to process the raw so nothing gets lost during the demosaicing, giving you the maximum file data to work with in CS.
    {snipped}
    Completely agreed Jack. I'd even go so far as to say to get a great print, by definition you are losing (or radically changing) RAW data.

    Even applying gamma 'changes' the RAW file output (non-destructively to the RAW file, of course) but you couldn't see anything if that didn't happen. Personally, I've never seen a case where demosaicing "differences" from the same raw converter would make any difference to a final print, so I don't see the need for a smart object here (and ACR's currently odd colour doesn't help). It *is* true that basic RAW development gets better over time, though, and that different programs are better than others in different ways, so archiving the RAW is essential.

    But beyond simple processing, you are always "losing information" to make a better print, in some ways. Setting a black point, for example, or a white point, for a print necessitates making decisions that have started with the RAW process. Are you "losing" data? Well, you're certainly shoving it around a lot, but that's a choice you make given the (relatively) limited DR of your (printed) output.

    So my own workflow is to create a TIFF that's a "perfect neg" from the RAW converter; lower contrast with conservative WP and BP (so no visually significant clipping at all), wb and basic CC and to check on overall midtone density.

    Then it's into PS for skin tones, print oriented contrast and colour output, no way to avoid that yet in my work. But the better the RAW converter is the less manual work I need to do in PS.

    Right now, LR/ACR doesn't get me as far as C1 does.

  36. #36
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Jamie, ditto everything you just said. I can only add emphasis to a few of your points as I think they are significant:

    1) If you are outputting for print, then for the best result it is almost essential to output an image for final processing in CS (or other fully color-managed image editor that allows for local adjustments).

    2) That my "perfect neg" for later processing in CS would almost never look right for anybody's definition of a final, generally being visually "flat" too, containing no full black and no fully-blown white.

    3) That raw converters do keep improving, so keeping the base raw file in-tact should be an essential component of everybody's workflow.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  37. #37
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Yes, Jack, that makes more sense now.

    There are many ways to solve the same problem, and a 'flat' intermediate TIFF is a great way to go as well.

    I was unable to find a difference in final quality between C1 and recent versions of LR/C1 files when developing my Phase files, but we're definitely on the same page in that C1 makes it much easier to get great results.

    Take care,
    Brad

  38. #38
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    The thing that is interesting is Adobe is regarded as the gold standard or more the universal application for photographers. Let's face it we all have it, so we normally look to it first. Just a little disappointed it is so far off but glad to hear Jamie speak of them working on it and at the end of the day I think that is all we all ever want is for companies to make things better for us the end user and frankly I personally drive these companies nuts . I think being the one of the first to have a M8 i drove leica absolutely nuts to get things working correctly. Not sure they love me or hate me but i busted my butt to get things better. In the end hopefully when folks get involved with trying to make things better it actually does something positive.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  39. #39
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    guy, are you talking about some specific phase back?
    i have no problem with lightroom whatsoever. after comparing results from lightroom and c1 i just erased c1 from my computer.

  40. #40
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Irakly, try this: Take a shot with your P25 in a very high contrast situation with lots of specular highlights like sun reflecting off a wet street or a car lot with sun reflecting off shiny new cars. LR/ACR will usually show some purple fringing around speculars along with sometimes weird patterns in brighter, non-blown areas. C1 4.1 OTOH, will show almost no purple fringing or odd patterns on the same image, and then what little purple fringing that does show can be totally eliminated with the "purple fringe" tool (C1 ver 4.1 only)...

    Guy and I noticed this issue with the P25, P30+ and P45+ backs we tested in Puerto Rico and Guy has since noted the purple fringe issue on specular highlights with his P25+ back using LR/ACR where C1 4.1 doesn't show it at all.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase One and LR

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    I know several MFDB owners (all different brands) who swear by Raw Developer.
    Amazing what Brian achieves by his lonesome.
    Billy

    Just want to emphasize that Brian is a genius and what he has been able to do as a small developer (compared to the giants at Adobe, Silkypix, Phase etc) is a miracle.

    His product is small, lightweight, cheap and does a thoroughly wonderful job. If only everyone was this smart and dedicated.

    Love it (and Him!)

    Woody

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