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Thread: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

  1. #51
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Awesome! Perhaps you (or maybe Thierry since it is his thread here) can cross post the answers here when you have them And not that any of those limitations would be deal breakers for everybody, but for sure they're items of interest for anybody wanting a camera with "full" movements.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  2. #52
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    hi Peter,

    thank you for your words, appreciated. We are all proud at Sinar about this new camera and are not shy to say it. Proud also to have worked with Rainer.

    we actually don't "forbid" others to make an adapter, as explained by Rainer in his post below. But it is honestly a question also of capacity and "serving" ourselves first. You may be can imagine that there are other works to be done for Photokina: it is around he corner.

    Thanks again,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Beautiful looking piece of engineering there Thierry! I would place an order today IF Sinar allowed for multiple MFD back adaptors.

    Still perhaps it wont take long for someone to reverse engineer the same beautiful and elegant solution, at which time Sinar will produce multiple back adaptors- just like Alpa and Linhof do for example... - patience is everything!

    I congratulate Sinar for making such a beautiful and elegant solution.

  3. #53
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Alpa makes the adapters to fit different backs. I am waiting on my Mamiya mount as we speak.
    Yes Guy, but Alpa (and Cambo or Horseman or some others) is not the same "type" of company. Rainer has explained that well. Alpa leaves exclusively from selling their cameras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here is my issue with this whole thing . Sinar makes there backs to fit other camera's via a 2 thousand dollar adapter .
    Recommended list prices for our adapters go from Euro 365.- (adapter eMotion/Hy6) to Euro 1'100.- (Revolving adapter for the Hy6), with an average of Euro 900.-

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Than Sinar builds a camera and shuts everyone out.
    No, we don't and can' even shut anybody out. We honestly don't even think so far. Why always see bad intentions? We wanted to build a camera, we did it the right way, IMO, by taking a professional to help and guide us, and today we have it. It was already enough work, manpower and time involved to satisfy our needs to make it usable with the eMotion line of backs (and AFi backs). Should we go any further, if we feel a demand and if the capacity is there, then we would obviously and first make adapters for our other backs. And as said, it has always been a back manufacturer's "duty" to provide an adaption for a particular camera platform: WE had to do the adapters for the different Mamiya's, WE had to do the adapters for the H (H1/H2) and V series, WE had to the adapters for all other existing brands, and we STILL have to do adapters for coming new cameras, nobody has asked, nobody has helped, and it is right this way. Why criticize this now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    So we go from a open system of backs to a closed system of Sinar body which is not a standard camera to begin with.
    It is by far not a closed system: nobody at Sinar forbids nor puts technical hurdles to any other back manufacturer. This is a pretty strange understanding of a closed system, IMO. I guess "open" or "closed" is very clear, at least in my yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    So if Sinar wants to make real money here open it up to everyone and sell 500 of them instead of 100. This will not really help them sell more backs. To me this is all wrong, sorry . You want to make money and provide a product exactly like Horseman, Alpa and Cambo than enter that market as a separate entity instead of a back maker.
    We do, of course, want to make money. It is even an economical necessity, but not at all "prices". Our first wish is to serve the best possible way the photographers by creating a product which he needs (and which then we will be able to sell). We don't think that we have the capacity to loose ourselves in too many different directions at the same time. What will be possible to do shall be done.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  4. #54
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Thanks Hank!

    No, there is no electronic interface or whatsoever.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    Is this an Alpa type camera or is there some electronic interface built in for back and shutter?

    The camera is not even out yet so it's a bit early to trash Sinar for lack of adapters for other backs. IF it sells I'm sure there will be a Phase adapter from more then one source (assuming it's like the Alpa with no electronic interface issues).

    Found a side view online:

    Attachment 5893

  5. #55
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    No, we don't and can' even shut anybody out. We honestly don't even think so far. Why always see bad intentions? We wanted to build a camera, we did it the right way, IMO, by taking a professional to help and guide us, and today we have it. It was already enough work, manpower and time involved to satisfy our needs to make it usable with the eMotion line of backs (and AFi backs). Should we go any further, if we feel a demand and if the capacity is there, then we would obviously and first make adapters for our other backs. And as said, it has always been a back manufacturer's "duty" to provide an adaption for a particular camera platform: WE had to do the adapters for the different Mamiya's, WE had to do the adapters for the H (H1/H2) and V series, WE had to the adapters for all other existing brands, and we STILL have to do adapters for coming new cameras, nobody has asked, nobody has helped, and it is right this way. Why criticize this now?

    Are you giving the tech specs than to the other back manufactures so they can make a plate for there backs.

    Is this not what Alpa, Horseman and Cambo do. My point being is your not building a back here it is different and a different market that competes directly with Alpa, Horseman and Cambo but Sinar is making it exclusive to there backs. I think this is a bad marketing move and that is my opinion like it or not it seems to be the opinion of many. You are building a tech camera and not a back and we all see it as different . That is my point but I know someone will come up with a plate. But i view this completely different than a back maker and or camera maker for there back.

    This is a different market and my real question is why Sinar took this route it closes other systems out. No need to answer i really don't care this just keeps doing the same thing Hassy has done to there user base and shuts other backs out on there H3 body and the 28mm lens on the H2 body. It's the same circle
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  6. #56
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Jack,
    see my answers below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    1) Am I correct in that it only shifts and tilts while mounted conventionally, and that you have to turn the camera 90 degrees to get Rise and/or swing?
    No, wrong: you don't have to turn the camera to get rise or swing!

    All movements are available a such.

    Concerning the tilt/swing movement: this is possible in both directions (combined tilt and swing = double Scheimpflug). The front with the lens board is rotating. Thus an initial tilt of x degrees becomes a combined movement of the sharpness plane when rotating the lens board somewhere between 0° and 90°. At the position 90° the tilt axis becomes the swing axis. So all 3 plane adjustments are possible: single sharpness plane adjustment around the H-axis, single sharpness plane adjustment around the V-axis, and double adjustment of the sharpness plane by using the rotation around the optical axis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    2) If 1 is correct, then there is no way to get rise and tilt or shift and swing at the same times?
    The horizontal and vertical shift movements are 2 different and independent movements/knobs, working and moving separately of the rotation of the lens board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    3) It also appears it is swing or tilt only and no way to have both combined?
    Wrong: combined tilt and swing for double adjustment of the sharpness plane is possible: see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    4) Finally, it appears the tripod mount is not centered under with the lens when the lens is zeroed? Wouldn't it be desirable to have it so for nodal (panoramic) stitching?
    See answer to the very same question here:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...ic=26265&st=60

    Post N° 72:

    "the 360degree plate in the tripod came in the camera, because we discussed to include this as a little detail, after i brought my tripod to sinar and explained whi i use this strange manfrotto leveller.
    i shoot usually with this leveler to get a horizontal platform under the three way head, or under which head i ever use. in this way i can turn round the camera meanwhile i compose and adjust the image without that the horizontal position gets lost.
    to integrate this rotary possibility in the camera mount itself means that, one time you have the camera horizintal adjusted e.g. with a three way head, you can turn it around its axe and you dont have to adjust the horizont again. this should be a very practical detail.

    of course one can use this feature also for "real" stitched roundshots, but it was not my intention when i asked for this feature
    i.m.o. a sliding back camera can never be a perfect roundshot camera platform and it will not be used often for this purpose, but you are right,- smetimes it will be used therefor".

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  7. #57
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    thanks Thierry -- it all makes sense now on the movements. However, I am a little lost on the swivel base. It's not a big deal, but I am not understanding how the explanation given explains why the lens is off center? I understand the desire for a level in the base, and I understand the desire for it to pan, I just don't understand the benefit to being off center to the lens axis?

    Anyway, thank you for the other clarifications -- it looks to be a very nice option for Sinar back shooters
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  8. #58
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    hi Guy,

    Not sure if the others need our tech specifications: those are pretty easy to get. It is a mechanical camera. No firmware or electronics involved.

    Guy, again, we have nothing against others using our camera for their backs, in the contrary. We simply don't have the capacity right now to take care of such, even if we would want it. There are simply much more important tasks and products to work on currently and in the mid-term.

    And it has really NOTHING to do with Hasselblad "closing" their camera to others, really nothing. I say it again, it is not our intention. As said, it is a mechanical camera, anybody can make an adapter. I don't understand where you see the same here: with the Hasselblad H3D, you can't do an adaption for your back, even if you want it "hard".

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    Are you giving the tech specs than to the other back manufactures so they can make a plate for there backs.

    Is this not what Alpa, Horseman and Cambo do. My point being is your not building a back here it is different and a different market that competes directly with Alpa, Horseman and Cambo but Sinar is making it exclusive to there backs. I think this is a bad marketing move and that is my opinion like it or not it seems to be the opinion of many. You are building a tech camera and not a back and we all see it as different . That is my point but I know someone will come up with a plate. But i view this completely different than a back maker and or camera maker for there back.

    This is a different market and my real question is why Sinar took this route it closes other systems out. No need to answer i really don't care this just keeps doing the same thing Hassy has done to there user base and shuts other backs out on there H3 body and the 28mm lens on the H2 body. It's the same circle

  9. #59
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Let's see what happens when it hits the streets but right now I can't buy it until something is developed for me to use it and that well just kind of sucks to be honest. Yes i like my cake and eat it too. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #60
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    i saw this on LL as well, but it sounds like there is only one degree of freedom of tilt/swing movement. The idea seems to be that you can rotate the lens so that the axis of that movement is anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees with respect to the horizon . 0 would be a tilt, 90 would be a swing. It sounds like you are saying that if i picked 45 degrees rotation, i could produce the effect of an equal swing and tilt at the same time? or, say 30 degrees would give more tilt effect than swing effect, for example?
    that sounds cumbersome...since the PC lenses allow rotation about the lens axis, i'll have to try it at angles in between 0 and 90 and see how it works.

    I'm rooted in the old monorail view camera methodology

  11. #61
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Yeah,
    I wouldn't be peeved if it didn't look so darn nice.
    -bob

  12. #62
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    yes John, basically it is as you describe it:

    0° (or 180°) position of the lens board = tilt
    90° (or 270°) position of the lens board = swing

    in-between 0 and 90 all the possible combined tilt and swing angles.

    Not so cumbersome if one is used in adjusting a sharpness plane, and the result of each movement can obviously be sen and checked on the groundglass.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i saw this on LL as well, but it sounds like there is only one degree of freedom of tilt/swing movement. The idea seems to be that you can rotate the lens so that the axis of that movement is anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees with respect to the horizon . 0 would be a tilt, 90 would be a swing. It sounds like you are saying that if i picked 45 degrees rotation, i could produce the effect of an equal swing and tilt at the same time? or, say 30 degrees would give more tilt effect than swing effect, for example?
    that sounds cumbersome...since the PC lenses allow rotation about the lens axis, i'll have to try it at angles in between 0 and 90 and see how it works.

    I'm rooted in the old monorail view camera methodology

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    This is a great camera system designed from the outset to be used in conjunction with a MFD back. Far more elegant and useful than anything from Alpa. The inbuilt tilt/shift capabilities are also more robust, efficient. and elegant. I am happy to see a system like this arrive. It fits perfectly between the Alpa for hand held casual shooting capability and the Linhof 679series for bellows and studio capability - a perfect landscape and architectural set-up.

    I love seeing exclent engineering delivering useful and intelligent photographic solutions - again well done!

  14. #64
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i saw this on LL as well, but it sounds like there is only one degree of freedom of tilt/swing movement. The idea seems to be that you can rotate the lens so that the axis of that movement is anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees with respect to the horizon . 0 would be a tilt, 90 would be a swing. It sounds like you are saying that if i picked 45 degrees rotation, i could produce the effect of an equal swing and tilt at the same time? or, say 30 degrees would give more tilt effect than swing effect, for example?
    that sounds cumbersome...since the PC lenses allow rotation about the lens axis, i'll have to try it at angles in between 0 and 90 and see how it works.

    I'm rooted in the old monorail view camera methodology
    Everything involves some compromise. No view view camera could ever approach the rigidity and alignment of an Alpa or this Sinar arTec (no flair from bellows either). The movements might be a bit more cumbersome then the latest Arca Swiss or Sinar monorail rig but it's a much more compact and rigid package. A tradeoff I'd take providing the available movements where suitable for the work I was doing.

  15. #65
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Have to agree it is a sexy design and looks very promising. Until it hits the streets it could change several times with input that is being generated now or be priced out of most of the markets reach. We all do not know.

    I am happy to hear it is all mechanical and not electronically integrated, so you can almost certain someone or multiple people will create an adapter (as long as there are not legal reasons they can't) and use it the way you would any "flashsync" type system (ie: horseman, cambo).

    Since this is Sinar it is almost certain it will be price premium but top quality.
    Maybe they can do the math and say a combined market of all four brnads of backs will actually allow us to sell more of these and make money instead or are we going to only reward out digital back users (or Afi as well) with this camera.

    Kudos you have raised more awareness for you brand , which will probably lead to more demos as folks will be curious about the system.

    So there are those out there that will wait for this system watch its every developmental step (which I am sure Thierry will keep us all up to date, by the minute )and wait and wait and wait.

    Then there are those who will know that there will always be something around the corner, but there are many solutions that are available today at a known price , with known compatibilities and that they can actually enjoy it / make money immediately.

    Again its great to see manufacturers Pre-Announce a product that will be announced officially at Photokina , but I am pleading to ALL the manufacturers, surprise us announce and actually deliver something on time for once. Also let the end users who finally receive their gear(months after promised ship date) use it for a while before you go announce a new product, that gives them buyers remorse or make people just wait and push off their decisions.
    We the channel bear the brunt of it.

    Yes I am excited and it solves problems, but not right now because it is available ??????

    On another note any word on that prototype ARCA I saw a few years ago that was a similar type design?

    L

    Lance Schad
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Lance - seems to me that the whole serious end of photography has succumbed to the 18 month new product cycle. The manufacturers plan their releases to pretty much conform to depreciation schedules of pro shooters - that is why non pro shooters ...- wait. I saved myself $12,000 on the price of my H3d2-39 ( sick of typing that silly name out) LOL..just waiting for the six months window before photokina. Doing same for Epson printer.

  17. #67
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Dear Lance,

    thanks for your praises for this new camera. A few remarks and corrections concerning its annoucement et delivery date/availability, as well as prices:

    - my announcement can be taken as an official Sinar announcement. We did not yet have time to put it on our homepage, since summer holidays have started in Switzerland, but expect it to be on within August, with all tech specs (although they have been given by me already). Our main goal was to have it a finished product by June 30th, in which we succeeded.

    - The camera is FINISHED and will NOT undergo any change: we simply wait for the LAST in-shooting-conditions feedback from Rainer (and one other photographer) to possibly (not necessarily) improve or modify some small details: we expect to have this done by Photokina, september 23rd '08. It is a purely mechanical product, as such no risk of special "surprises" and delays.

    - I have said that it will be available for delivery shortly after Photokina: we believe that this can be hold as well. It is a 100% Sinar product, 100% built in our factory in Switzerland, and as such we have full control over its availability.

    - Endusers have already used it, since it was developed a 100% WITH an enduser, one among those having the necessary field experience and background. There is another well-known and successful enduser using it currently.

    - I understand your concerns as a dealer as well as your wishes to have products within the promised time: I think Sinar has a proven its credibility for having always delivered what was promised, concerning mechanical products/cameras and accessories.

    - Prices will be announced as well within August, but expect them to be slightly higher than any "identical" and existing cameras (Arca RM3D, Alpa XY, ...), depending on the countries.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    Have to agree it is a sexy design and looks very promising. Until it hits the streets it could change several times with input that is being generated now or be priced out of most of the markets reach. We all do not know.

    Since this is Sinar it is almost certain it will be price premium but top quality.

    So there are those out there that will wait for this system watch its every developmental step (which I am sure Thierry will keep us all up to date, by the minute )and wait and wait and wait.

    Then there are those who will know that there will always be something around the corner, but there are many solutions that are available today at a known price , with known compatibilities and that they can actually enjoy it / make money immediately.

    Again its great to see manufacturers Pre-Announce a product that will be announced officially at Photokina , but I am pleading to ALL the manufacturers, surprise us announce and actually deliver something on time for once. Also let the end users who finally receive their gear(months after promised ship date) use it for a while before you go announce a new product, that gives them buyers remorse or make people just wait and push off their decisions.
    We the channel bear the brunt of it.

    Yes I am excited and it solves problems, but not right now because it is available ??????

    On another note any word on that prototype ARCA I saw a few years ago that was a similar type design?

    L

    Lance Schad
    Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
    305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
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  18. #68
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Dear Lance,

    thanks for your praises for this new camera. A few remarks and corrections concerning its annoucement et delivery date/availability, as well as prices:

    - my announcement can be taken as an official Sinar announcement. We did not yet have time to put it on our homepage, since summer holidays have started in Switzerland, but expect it to be on within August, with all tech specs (although they have been given by me already). Our main goal was to have it a finished product by June 30th, in which we succeeded.

    - The camera is FINISHED and will NOT undergo any change: we simply wait for the LAST in-shooting-conditions feedback from Rainer (and one other photographer) to possibly (not necessarily) improve or modify some small details: we expect to have this done by Photokina, september 23rd '08. It is a purely mechanical product, as such no risk of special "surprises" and delays.

    - I have said that it will be available for delivery shortly after Photokina: we believe that this can be hold as well. It is a 100% Sinar product, 100% built in our factory in Switzerland, and as such we have full control over its availability.

    - Endusers have already used it, since it was developed a 100% WITH an enduser, one among those having the necessary field experience and background. There is another well-known and successful enduser using it currently.

    - I understand your concerns as a dealer as well as your wishes to have products within the promised time: I think Sinar has a proven its credibility for having always delivered what was promised, concerning mechanical products/cameras and accessories.

    - Prices will be announced as well within August, but expect them to be slightly higher than any "identical" and existing cameras (Arca RM3D, Alpa XY, ...), depending on the countries.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Thierry,
    Thanks for the clarifications. Again all sounds great on paper. What would be great is to have feedback from a third - party digital back tester since it is all mechanical and then you would be able to assure the community of compatibility.
    Any new equipment to solve current problems out there is warmly welcomed by me.

    Lance

  19. #69
    ddk
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Sinar announced today a new architecture camera called "arTec".

    It was developed together with architecture photographer Rainer Viertlböck who gave his input for the necessary features for his ideal camera.

    Some of the features of this new camera:

    - Revolving Adapter
    - Sliding Back for ground-glass composing
    - Lenses 23mm to 135mm (Sinaron Digital)
    - 5° Tilt/Swing, in all directions
    - Shift V +25/-15mm
    - Shift H +20/-20mm
    - 360° turnable tripod mount
    - 1.5 Kg

    Availability shortly after Photokina 2008.

    More to follow.

    Best regards,
    Rainer & Thierry
    Please excuse my ignorance but what's the advantage/difference or disadvantage between this type of camera and a typical view camera with bellows like the Arca F line or Sinar's p2/p3, aside from the size that is?

    david

  20. #70
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Good question David, some of us have been shooting larger formats for a while and forget some of the basic concepts.

    The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.

    So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.

    So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  21. #71
    ddk
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Good question David, some of us have been shooting larger formats for a while and forget some of the basic concepts.

    The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.

    So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.

    So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.

    Cheers,
    Thanks for the reply Jack, but I'm still confused, maybe because I have no experience with large format. I'm about to purchase an F line 6x9 Arca Swiss Compact Metric to use with a Leaf 22. I don't shoot any architecture and a little landscape, my main work is portraiture and nudes, I'm mainly interested in manipulating the depth of field and the background in my images. I'm told to buy the same focal length lenses for the view camera that I use for the MF system, I wonder if this is true. The following are the types of images that I shoot, always on location and never in a studio. Any advice would be much appreciated.

    david









    and some standard stuff like these

    Last edited by ddk; 2nd July 2008 at 14:44.

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    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Good question David, some of us have been shooting larger formats for a while and forget some of the basic concepts.

    The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.

    So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.

    So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.

    Cheers,
    Jack, what are some of the exceptions? I invested heavily in the Rollei X-Act 2 system with every components but have not got the chance to use it yet. I wonder how does the Rollei X-Act 2 compare to the new Sinar arTec system?

    Thanks,
    -Son
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    David have you tried a Tilt and Shift lens for that look. Many folks use them with that effect and certainly would save some money plus be more mobile for you. What body are you shooting with. Harbetial (spelling) sells them for several bodies
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    David have you tried a Tilt and Shift lens for that look. Many folks use them with that effect and certainly would save some money plus be more mobile for you. What body are you shooting with. Harbetial (spelling) sells them for several bodies
    I mostly shoot with my Fuji S5 and Zeiss lenses, though upon discovering Dante's Inferno here got myself a Contax 645 and several DBs.

    I've been looking Keith Carter's work again recently (http://www.keithcarterphotographs.com/images-2005.html) and been inspired. I know that I can accomplish some of the same effects with PS but its not the same. I already have a couple of Hartblei's both for the Fuji and the Contax but the optics aren't up to the quality that I want, I'm a Zeiss lens junkie. They have a 45mm T/S lens with Zeiss glass but for one thing its not wide enough and talk about cumbersome, its heavy and very difficult to use, besides the small dark finders of dslrs aren't T/S friendly.

    I was thinking of a Lensbaby too but I don't know how it will work out on the Contax.

    david

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    What is the typical minimum focus distance with the arTec?

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    I mostly shoot with my Fuji S5 and Zeiss lenses, though upon discovering Dante's Inferno here got myself a Contax 645 and several DBs.

    I've been looking Keith Carter's work again recently (http://www.keithcarterphotographs.com/images-2005.html) and been inspired. I know that I can accomplish some of the same effects with PS but its not the same. I already have a couple of Hartblei's both for the Fuji and the Contax but the optics aren't up to the quality that I want, I'm a Zeiss lens junkie. They have a 45mm T/S lens with Zeiss glass but for one thing its not wide enough and talk about cumbersome, its heavy and very difficult to use, besides the small dark finders of dslrs aren't T/S friendly.

    I was thinking of a Lensbaby too but I don't know how it will work out on the Contax.

    david
    Small dark finders are a problem for wide angles on MF sized view cameras as well. I'd start with a used cheap view camera there are tons of really good cheap used cameras to be found before committing a lot of money.

    Hartblei has a line of Zeiss MF lenses adapted to tilt shift mounts. They even got rid of the ugly hexagons in the Zeiss 120/4 by going to more blades in the aperture. http://www.hartblei.eu/

    The image circle is not big enough for your back though. They are geared to 35mm DSLR's.

  27. #77
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    What is the typical minimum focus distance with the arTec?
    Hi Graham,

    The helical focus mounts are made by the lens manufacturer. In the case of a 35mm Schneider digitar for instance, you have the same focuser weather you buy that lens for an Alpa, Cambo, or other plate camera. The only real difference is the camera manufacturers mounting board. You can get the minimum focus distances for the HR and Digitar lenses off the Alpa site. I will bet the numbers will be the same on the Sinar. Alpa does have some extension tubes, and I would think that Sinar would come out with some eventually too.

  28. #78
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    Small dark finders are a problem for wide angles on MF sized view cameras as well. I'd start with a used cheap view camera there are tons of really good cheap used cameras to be found before committing a lot of money.

    Hartblei has a line of Zeiss MF lenses adapted to tilt shift mounts. They even got rid of the ugly hexagons in the Zeiss 120/4 by going to more blades in the aperture. http://www.hartblei.eu/

    The image circle is not big enough for your back though. They are geared to 35mm DSLR's.
    I have seen and handled them, the 45 is the only one that gets close to the fl that I need and its big & heavy, I might have bought it for the dslr if I could see what I was doing in the finder.

    I've been looking at view cameras for a little while now, not many make a 6x9 that takes the Contax mount, my first choice was a Technikarden.

    david

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Thanks for the reply Jack, but I'm still confused, maybe because I have no experience with large format. SNIP I'm told to buy the same focal length lenses for the view camera that I use for the MF system, I wonder if this is true.
    Hi David:

    Yes, you would buy the same or at least similar focal lengths to what you are already using for MF if you are shooting MF on a view camera. THe difference between shoot MF view and 4X5 view is only one of the smaller formats needing more precision for comparable image quality.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Son:

    Right now I'd the two exceptions I'd consider are the Rollei Xact and the Linhof 679.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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  31. #81
    ddk
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Son:

    Right now I'd the two exceptions I'd consider are the Rollei Xact and the Linhof 679.

    Cheers,
    So you find the Rollei better made than the Arca Swiss? Could you elaborate a bit?

    david

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    So you find the Rollei better made than the Arca Swiss? Could you elaborate a bit?

    david
    Not saying either is better made, just more rigid. Understand I used to shoot an Arca Swiss 4x5, the newest 141x141 F-Metric with micro-orbix, and I loved it! HOWEVER, because of the added movements, it is not as rigid between the standards as the two above, nor is focus as easily locked without moving the standard slightly as you lock it... For those two reasons I would choose theXact or Linhof 679 (NOT the Technikardan!) over the A/S, but understand both are also heavier and don't fold up as compactly as the A/S, so there is a trade-off...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    the Linhof is sexier - simple as that ...

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    because of the added movements, it is not as rigid between the standards as the two above, nor is focus as easily locked without moving the standard slightly as you lock it...
    Thanks Jack, I get it now.

    david

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Good question David, some of us have been shooting larger formats for a while and forget some of the basic concepts.

    The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.

    So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.

    So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.

    Cheers,
    Jack,

    Whilst what you say is correct, I doubt its relevancy in actual photographic conditions. Any subject usually has points in front and behind the focal point; it is highly unlikely that your image will run perfectly parallel to the DB plane (one exception to this is of course looking at a building head-on during architectural photography), but this is only relevant if the back IS perfectly aligned with the building, and adding tilt or swing negates the argument.

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not saying either is better made, just more rigid. Understand I used to shoot an Arca Swiss 4x5, the newest 141x141 F-Metric with micro-orbix, and I loved it! HOWEVER, because of the added movements, it is not as rigid between the standards as the two above, nor is focus as easily locked without moving the standard slightly as you lock it... For those two reasons I would choose theXact or Linhof 679 (NOT the Technikardan!) over the A/S, but understand both are also heavier and don't fold up as compactly as the A/S, so there is a trade-off...

    Cheers,
    Jack

    I use an ARCA-SWISS F-METRIC 6x9 with ORBIX and my CFV BACK attached to the ROTASLIDE adapter . I find the camera very stable and also very handy . I do not experience the "issues" you describe above .

    I can also use the A/S with the 4x5 back (171) having the front board as 110 mm board . That makes a kind of view camera . But I would never use this combination with a digital back

    Regards Jürgen

  37. #87
    ericstaud
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by shakeshuck View Post
    Jack,

    Whilst what you say is correct, I doubt its relevancy in actual photographic conditions. Any subject usually has points in front and behind the focal point; it is highly unlikely that your image will run perfectly parallel to the DB plane (one exception to this is of course looking at a building head-on during architectural photography), but this is only relevant if the back IS perfectly aligned with the building, and adding tilt or swing negates the argument.
    My real life example came when I got my 35mm digitar. When set at infinity the lens focused out about 50 feet from the camera. The horizon in a big landscape shot was definitely soft. The lens mount was off by 1/10th of a mm. If I remember correctly, this was shooting at f11.

    The total travel distance of the 24mm digitar is about 1.5 mm.

    There is something nice about the Alpa or Cambo cameras when you can go out on the job every day without a second thought of having focus problems. Adding swings and tilts to the camera means you have to add in methods to check focus across the whole frame on each setup very carefully. I think the big challenge for the new Sinar is to have the tilt mechanism stay perfectly accurate for at least several years of use and for it to be very easy to get the tilt back to zero without having to carefully check the entire frame.

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ericstaud View Post
    My real life example came when I got my 35mm digitar. When set at infinity the lens focused out about 50 feet from the camera. The horizon in a big landscape shot was definitely soft. The lens mount was off by 1/10th of a mm. If I remember correctly, this was shooting at f11.
    Exactly!

    No way you can set focus to within 0.1mm using a ground-glass and loupe; you cannot even insure the GG is in the same plane as the sensor to within 0.1mm on a "sliding" or other moving back... To get a perfectly crisp image, you need digital focus confirmation of some type. The next best alternative is a fully rigid assembly where focus has near-zero back-lash and has been calibrated.

    My example was with a 210 lens where 0.5mm made the difference between 30 feet and 350 feet being the exact focus point at f22! FWIW, moving a standard 0.5mm on ANY view camera is literally a "touch" on the focus knob, and most will not hold that position precisely while focus is being locked down.
    ~~~

    What we can debate is whether that amount of shift and corresponding "softness" to the main subject area of you composition is important to the final image. In most cases it probably is not, but the fact that I know it is there drives me absolutely nuts

    Here is an example of the narrow DOF's we are talking about being visible with high resolution digital. This shot is from a 22MP ZD back -- note that it is not a great image, just a good example of the tiny DoF's you may have to deal with. Here a few mm of camera movement either direction would have been visible, which probably translates to less than 0.01mm of lens focal distance change... (The flower is only about 30mm in total diameter, the yellow stamen inside maybe 2mm...)

    Full image:



    Red crop area at 100%:

    Jack
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Jack, your post illustrates quite well the extremely narrow DOF issues we face in the MF arena. With regard to digital focus confirmation, my experience has been that it's not yet precise enough (especially at close distances) to resolve this difficulty. I find myself relying more and more on manual focus if a crisp image is desired. With my less than perfect eyesight a big bright viewfinder is essential to achieve this.

  40. #90
    rainer-v
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ericstaud View Post
    I think the big challenge for the new Sinar is to have the tilt mechanism stay perfectly accurate for at least several years of use and for it to be very easy to get the tilt back to zero without having to carefully check the entire frame.

    yes i know that and it was one of the major points on the feature list that swing and tilt ONLY can be built in the system, if there is a simple system to set it 100% accurate to zero, without that there is any need to check focus.
    this will not be a problem.

  41. #91
    ericstaud
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    yes i know that and it was one of the major points on the feature list that swing and tilt ONLY can be built in the system, if there is a simple system to set it 100% accurate to zero, without that there is any need to check focus.
    this will not be a problem.
    I am glad to hear you think it will not be a problem Rainer.

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    With regard to digital focus confirmation, my experience has been that it's not yet precise enough (especially at close distances) to resolve this difficulty.
    I may be extremely lucky, but I have found the focus confirm on my Mamiya AFD2 body with both the ZD back and my P45+ back to be spot on -- at least a lot closer than I could ever get by eye. I am hoping my new AFD3 body is as good

    Cheers,
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Jack, I am NOT going down this road again

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Jack, I am NOT going down this road again
    LOLOLOL!!! I hear you on that loud and clear. All I was saying was I have it so good now I'm reluctant to change anything, even within the existing system!
    Jack
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    when i work out the math, using a 210mm lens, 35' lens/object distance would have a lens/image distance of 214mm;
    350' lens/object would be 210.5. so the focus difference would be about 4 mm for objects between 35 and 350 ft using a 210 lens.

    using a 35mm lens, the distances are 36.14mm for 35'. 35.11mm for 350 ft, or a delta of about 1mm.

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    John: I tested this empirically with a 210 lens on the camera, and the difference was as close to 0.5mm as I could measure on the focus rail. It may be the difference beteween a "pure" 210 and a 210 telephoto design lens...
    Jack
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  47. #97
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    For those looking for a confirmation, it is now on Sinar's webpage:

    http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/ind...9-50-2158.html

    Best regards,
    Thierry

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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    yes i know that and it was one of the major points on the feature list that swing and tilt ONLY can be built in the system, if there is a simple system to set it 100% accurate to zero, without that there is any need to check focus.
    this will not be a problem.
    Rainer:

    On a side note... I have always been a huge fan of camera movements, used them all the time on large formats. However, a friend and fellow photographer who also used to exclusively shoot 4x5, and who recently came to a high resolution MF back, has started to use digital focus blending instead and claims he prefers it to tilt and swing. I was skeptical, but I've seen the images and am pretty impressed. The main advantage I see is he is not restricted to a tilted plane of sharp focus as we are with tilts, but rather he can select the components or regions from foreground and background he wants in focus at the blend... He will generally compile 3 to 7 frames of the same subject just altering focus point between them to gather his set of images for the later blend...

    I have not gone there myself yet, but intend to try it on my next major outing so I can determine if it is a viable option for me. I am curious to hear if anybody else here has tried it?

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    1/fL=(1/image dist) + (1/object dist)
    should apply, as that formula is what really defines focal length (object dist is infinity then image dist = fL)

    jack: I did try the Helicon focus; see attached image from 5 focus brackets; this would have been a textbook swing condition. processing is very fast. watch out for moving bushes, etc., he, he

  50. #100
    thsinar
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    Re: New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

    Yes, Jack, another interesting possibility.

    Possible with any camera.

    As a side note: the Sinar Hy6 has an automated "focus bracketing" feature.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Rainer:

    On a side note... I have always been a huge fan of camera movements, used them all the time on large formats. However, a friend and fellow photographer who also used to exclusively shoot 4x5, and who recently came to a high resolution MF back, has started to use digital focus blending instead and claims he prefers it to tilt and swing. I was skeptical, but I've seen the images and am pretty impressed. The main advantage I see is he is not restricted to a tilted plane of sharp focus as we are with tilts, but rather he can select the components or regions from foreground and background he wants in focus at the blend... He will generally compile 3 to 7 frames of the same subject just altering focus point between them to gather his set of images for the later blend...

    I have not gone there myself yet, but intend to try it on my next major outing so I can determine if it is a viable option for me. I am curious to hear if anybody else here has tried it?

    Cheers,

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