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Thread: MF for landscape architecture

  1. #51
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Erick,
    One more item to consider is, the battery. I agree with JeromeE. that one who shoots L/A almost always will consider a tech camera at some point. With a Phase 645 DF you can shoot with AF and the choice of leaf or focal plane shutter @ 1/4000 sec. This way you can capture fast sports and high flash synch with appropriate lenses and then swap the DB to any number of tech cameras without the need for a tethered battery. I think the Phase 645DF is the only camera besides the S2 that offers two shutter options.

  2. #52
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Steve you always repeat the same thing about pixels, if a company propose only 60 - 80 - 100 mp they will loose customers

    a company will offer some day a MF FF with 40 mp and a decent price and it will be a killer

  3. #53
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    On the contrary, there is no question that MP counts will go 60, 80, 100. They're already at 60/80 from Leaf/Mamiya and Phase One. So, not sure why you seem uncertain, but perhaps you're only stating Hasselblad's intentions? In fact, there is no question they will go higher.

    I don't know that MP counts will ever get to a million. But in terms of sales figures, there is huge demand for higher megapixels if they're offered. I would say of all our IQ orders, at least 60% are for IQ180.

    Perhaps sales figures for Hasselblad reflect more demand for the H4D-40, which is a well priced and versatile kit, and I'm sure outsells the H4D-60 by a wide margin.


    Steve Hendrix
    Nice for Phase that they are selling so many high MP backs!

    Absolutely disagree there is only demand for higher MP counts - 40MP are more than enough to make even largest prints in highest quality. If you cannot do that than something is wrong!

    Absolutely agree that there will be MP increases above 80MP - open is what is really needed and also what makes sense even with most advanced optics of any MFD system. I would say 80MP is already asking too much from most of the lenses available today and increasing further lens quality drives the price into regions which makes them too expensive. Also not to forget diffraction - you cannot overcome these physical limitations.

    So with current sensor size in MFD the meaningful MP limits are more in the area around 100MP, if one needs higher then that implies larger sensor size.

    What would be really needed would be a dramatic price reduction of lower MP backs around 40MP. And I mean really dramatic, not what Phase or Hasselblad is currently offering - something in a price range around $7k!

    But good luck anyway selling highest MP count as the only thing to make photographers and clients happy!

  4. #54
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jérôme.E View Post

    David said Dalsa sensor 22 or 33mp were a bad choice for that... pretty strange i never heard someone complaining with this set for architecture... some others think it is one of the best choice for movements on a Techcam, i haven't this DB but it's what i red often when i was searching... not to expensive and not too big files. Moire, hum not convinced... as far as you don't shoot fashion/textiles all times it won't happen often.
    This guy use a leaf dalsa 33mp with fashion... he doesn't seem to be disappointed with moire and a lack of details!! http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/
    About the loss of fine details with dalsa 33...!!!??? Yair/Doug... do you confirm
    Please read my post carefully.

    I said a Full Frame 22MP sensor would probably be a bad idea. I was not referring to current offerings from Dalsa.

  5. #55
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I totally agree with ptomsu , there is a huge market for MF in the range 8000 euros and 36 / 40 mp, but on FF , not on a crop sensor 1.5 or 1.3

    Hasselblad has stopped the H3D II 22 :-( with a H4D 30 or 40 they will also sell lenses and HTS



    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Please read my post carefully.

    I said a Full Frame 22MP sensor would probably be a bad idea. I was not referring to current offerings from Dalsa.
    not a 22Mp but 34 or 36 will be a great idea


    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Erick,
    One more item to consider is, the battery. I agree with JeromeE. that one who shoots L/A almost always will consider a tech camera at some point. With a Phase 645 DF you can shoot with AF and the choice of leaf or focal plane shutter @ 1/4000 sec. This way you can capture fast sports and high flash synch with appropriate lenses and then swap the DB to any number of tech cameras without the need for a tethered battery. I think the Phase 645DF is the only camera besides the S2 that offers two shutter options.
    the batteries of the P45 are a catastrophe :-)

    thank you Johnny
    Last edited by erick.boileau; 24th March 2011 at 00:28.

  6. #56
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jérôme.E View Post
    Erick,

    For architecture photography you have to consider that with the blad 28mm + sensor crop 1.3 (or 1.1 with the 39) + HTS, your largest T/S lens would be something like 55mm (or 45mm) equivalent to a 35mm (28mm) for 24x36. You should get info with image circle too.
    I understand you don't like very wide lens but as you know, city streets in France are not wide as USA's one and sometimes a 28 or 35 (645) can really help you a lot.
    Same for me if could shoot always architecture with 80-110-200 it would be best but it never happen often in Paris ( i don't even talk about interiors ).
    If you make your living with this kind of pictures it is something to take care of.
    Like you i've made a lot of research to find a set that fit my wishes... sure it's hard because both systems have their qualities ( and a lot of weaknesses ) but for architecture (for landscape both are quite the same IMO) i think Phase/Leaf products are more useful, you can put them easily on Techcam with no microlens problems or use them with a lot of camera systems. You surely go one day or another for a Techcam because it is simply the best for architecture (for landscape too IMO). You could also stitch easily, even if you decide to choose a 42 Roden. as your largest lens, if you need to go wider.

    David said Dalsa sensor 22 or 33mp were a bad choice for that... pretty strange i never heard someone complaining with this set for architecture... some others think it is one of the best choice for movements on a Techcam, i haven't this DB but it's what i red often when i was searching... not to expensive and not too big files. Moire, hum not convinced... as far as you don't shoot fashion/textiles all times it won't happen often.
    This guy use a leaf dalsa 33mp with fashion... he doesn't seem to be disappointed with moire and a lack of details!! http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/
    About the loss of fine details with dalsa 33...!!!??? Yair/Doug... do you confirm

    If you can afford IQ backs they are certainly the best for those both photography categories.
    If you haven't red Jack/Guy's (and others) post about these yet... DO! I'd have waited for those if i hadn't bought mine already... as far as you shoot exteriors it seems so powerful and useful.

    Hope this help

    Nota: Are you ErickB from Chassimages??
    Hi Jerome

    yes I am on Chassimages, what is your alias on chassimages ?

    actually I use a Canon TSE 24 and it is a great lens for architecture, but a 28 will work also for me

    merci pour ta longue réponse, j'ai revendu mon H1 et P45 et je voudrais reprendre un MF mais à ce prix je ne veux pas me tromper, bien sur un Alpa est très tentant, as tu Skype ?

  7. #57
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Low-ish res FF 645 sensor is not going to happen...that'll be a step back, technologically wise...
    Do you see Canon bringing out a 15MP 24x36 sensor???? Me neither...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  8. #58
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    you need a certain amount of pixels to print A2 which is big enough for most part of us, not 5 time bigger

    20 MP on 24x36 = 40 MP on 48x36

  9. #59
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Erick,

    There's no question that sensors will get more resolution, but the quality relates to the lenses ability to resolve it. It seems there's more of a push to market and develop the sensor size (MP) than the lens, IMO. I have personally owned an H4D and IMO, the battery performance is terrible compared to other cameras, this has been mentioned in other reviews too. The amount of time to charge them warrants buying 2 or 3 extra. Phase One DB's require no tethering when used with tech cameras and that itself is why I switched to Phase One.

  10. #60
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    If you shoot at night with a P45 with one battery you can do 3 or 4 photos :-)

  11. #61
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Steve you always repeat the same thing about pixels, if a company propose only 60 - 80 - 100 mp they will loose customers

    a company will offer some day a MF FF with 40 mp and a decent price and it will be a killer

    I factually disagree. No medium format company has lost customers because they offer too many megapixels. Maybe they will lose you, Erick (which would be unfortunate), but overall, there is zero sales evidence that shows a loss of customers due to increasing megapixel counts. If this was the case, we would be selling more IQ140's and IQ160's than IQ180's, but this is not so, nor has it ever been.

    Anytime a new sensor has been introduced with higher megapixels, even when the technology around the sensor is unchanged, the higher megapixel sensor always outsells the lower.

    It doesn't mean there's an overt demand for higher megapixels, nor a repudiation of lower megapixels (though the evidence might actually point to this). But the decision to purchase always moves toward the higher.

    I can see this tempering for the commercial market - indeed have seen this - but that is driven more by price (based on not just megapixels, but also sensor size) than the cost of the product. The ratio of high megapixel to lower megapixel purchases is more equivalent in our mainstream commercial clients than with other segments. But this is primarily because of the price, not the megapixel count.

    As has been pointed out, whether due to technical constraints, or marketability/profitability, a large sensor (full frame, what have you) will never offer reduced megapixel count. And if it did, the cost would still likely be more prohibitive due to the large sensor size for the markets that would welcome such a product (those that might truly not need the higher megapixel count).

    Well, actually, there already is such a product, a full frame 20MP digital back that has a fast capture rate and an expanded ISO range from 200 - 3200 ISO called the IQ180. It also has the option of shooting at 80MP's for those occasional projects that require large output/more detail.


    Steve Hendrix


    Steve Hendrix
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  12. #62
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Steve read the forums and you will see how many users will buy a MF at a decent price with less pixels

    the companies have not lost customer they just didn't get them, because the customers will never buy it

    even if I could throw 40 000 , for the same price I shall take 40 mp not 80 ...

    a large sensor (full frame, what have you) will never offer reduced megapixel count.
    And if it did, the cost would still likely be more prohibitive due to the large sensor size for the markets that would welcome such a product (those that might truly not need the higher megapixel count).
    a P45 + or a P25+ is a 1.1 sensor with 40 mp and it works very well ... nobody will say that it is not a good back

  13. #63
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I can see how a company might lose customers if they offered only an 80MP back (at the higher price such a back would entail), but don't see how offering one in addition to other options could possibly hurt.

  14. #64
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I can see how a company might lose customers if they offered only an 80MP back (at the higher price such a back would entail), but don't see how offering one in addition to other options could possibly hurt.
    and with a 40 MP or 120MP back they will anyway sell the same lenses and accessories

    ... Pentax is on the way

  15. #65
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    If you shoot at night with a P45 with one battery you can do 3 or 4 photos :-)
    I'm not sure that statement is accurate. Long exposures do require a dark frame, but you won't find a Hasselblad capable of shooting 1 hour exposures either. Ambient conditions will effect battery performance in any camera, but if you're shooting 3 or 4 one hour exposures that's 6 to 8 hours! Just enough time to fully charge your H4D!

  16. #66
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    but if you're shooting 3 or 4 one hour exposures that's 6 to 8 hours! Just enough time to fully charge your H4D!
    at home but not in the mountains

  17. #67
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Steve read the forums and you will see how many users will buy a MF at a decent price with less pixels

    the companies have not lost customer they just didn't get them, because the customers will never buy it

    even if I could throw 40 000 , for the same price I shall take 40 mp not 80 ...


    a P45 + or a P25+ is a 1.1 sensor with 40 mp and it works very well ... nobody will say that it is not a good back

    Erick - I can tell you that forums are a very poor indicator of sales figures.

    Customers will buy high megapixels in overwhelming numbers if they can afford it. Price is the issue, not the megapixel count. To your point, if medium format could offer lower price points, they might gain some extra portion of the market, however, the evidence for how much gain they would add shows that gain would be relatively modest. Already there are Mamiya and Leaf products available for below $10,000. While we sell our share, it is not the majority of our sales, certainly not from a revenue standpoint.

    Now, yes, these are generally older sensor technologies (22MP/48x36 & 28MP/44x33), and if a full frame, 30MP sensor with say, IQ capabilities were offered around the same price point, would more buy at that price? Yes, no question. But the financial realities based on development costs to overcome the technical difficulties of providing optimal image quality with large photosites over a large sensor (combined with the drastic reduction in revenue compared to those development costs) would not be recovered in revenues from increased market share. At least not in sufficient quantities. It could (and would) probably be done if the end result would be increased profitability. That it hasn't been done is a clear indicator this is not the case.


    Steve Hendrix
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  18. #68
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    we shall see

  19. #69
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    we shall see

    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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  20. #70
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    This thread seems to have changed topics from the original question regarding landscape and architecture, to more of marketing strategies as it relates to MFD. I'm sure you'll find most cameras are comparable in resolution in the 40MP range, more than enough for big prints. If your only printing up to A2, then you could use many 35mm FF cameras.

  21. #71
    Member Jérôme.E's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post

    However, we feel that the 40MP offering from Kodak is superior for many reasons compared to some of the other options (33MP Dalsa) for example.

    30MP full frame would actually be a very bad choice for a sensor. The pixel sites would have to be quite large leading to moire issues and a loss of fine detail - not much good for landscapes at all.
    Sorry David if i didn't exactly get your point.
    But it was a little confusing with your first sentence.

  22. #72
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    This thread seems to have changed topics from the original question regarding landscape and architecture, to more of marketing strategies as it relates to MFD. I'm sure you'll find most cameras are comparable in resolution in the 40MP range, more than enough for big prints. If your only printing up to A2, then you could use many 35mm FF cameras.

    True indeed. I don't there are any other practical options for medium format tilt/shift camera systems that also offer auto focus than an HTS 1.5 with H4D or Phase One/Leaf/Mamiya/Sinar digital backs on H1/H2 cameras.

    So, other than considering a separate system for auto focus use and one for dedicated landscape/architecture (like a tech cam with Schneider/Rodenstock lenses), the only discussion would seem to be what back would be ideal.

    This thread may have run it's course before I helped yank it off the tracks...


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  23. #73
    Member Jérôme.E's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Erick - I can tell you that forums are a very poor indicator of sales figures.

    Customers will buy high megapixels in overwhelming numbers if they can afford it. Price is the issue, not the megapixel count. To your point, if medium format could offer lower price points, they might gain some extra portion of the market, however, the evidence for how much gain they would add shows that gain would be relatively modest. Already there are Mamiya and Leaf products available for below $10,000. While we sell our share, it is not the majority of our sales, certainly not from a revenue standpoint.

    Now, yes, these are generally older sensor technologies (22MP/48x36 & 28MP/44x33), and if a full frame, 30MP sensor with say, IQ capabilities were offered around the same price point, would more buy at that price? Yes, no question. But the financial realities based on development costs to overcome the technical difficulties of providing optimal image quality with large photosites over a large sensor (combined with the drastic reduction in revenue compared to those development costs) would not be recovered in revenues from increased market share. At least not in sufficient quantities. It could (and would) probably be done if the end result would be increased profitability. That it hasn't been done is a clear indicator this is not the case.


    Steve Hendrix
    Even if some (already or future) customers would appreciate FF 30-40, i think Steve is clearly right.
    I understand that when you look at 30-40 (even 22) DB's images it's already so astonishing that why some would care about more.
    Sales and market have their rules that keen customers have to "suffer".

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    redacted as it was off topic

  25. #75
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    If your only printing up to A2, then you could use many 35mm FF cameras.
    it is not only a matter of pixels
    a H3D 22 and a Canon 5D mark II have exactly the same number of pixels but the RAW are different

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