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Thread: MF for landscape architecture

  1. #1
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    MF for landscape architecture

    what are the best MF for landscape and architecture (with tilt/shift but also Autofocus when not using TS lenses ) ?

    thank you

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    We have an article on our website detailing some of the technical arguments for tech cameras: Tech Cameras for Architecture/Landscape.

    My (heavily biased) opinion is a Phase One P45+ (if long exposures are needed in your style of shooting) or an IQ160/180 (if 1 min will suffice for max exposure length) with a Tech camera and also a Phase One DF is the most versatile and high quality kit available. That's one huge benifit of open platform medium format systems - just take the back directly off the Autofocus, TTL Focus/Composition, Built-In Metering DF body and put it directly on to a Tech Camera with large format lenses and built in rise/fall/shift/tilt.

    That way you have convenience/speed when needed/appropriate and also the best possible quality (and movements on every lens) when you have the time to use the tech camera.

    Hasselblad also makes an HTS system which you could use on a Phase, Leaf, or Hasselblad back (though they've closed the H3 and H4 to doing so you can still do so on the H2 body). However this magnifies the lens focal length by 1.5 and does so using optical elements (quality wise it's always best to avoid adding optical elements when possible) which means the widest lens they offer, the 28mm lens, becomes a 42mm. Depending on what lenses you've found you've used in the past with your current camera that may be fine or may be a deal killer.

    If you've never had the chance to shoot with a tech camera like an Arca Swiss RM3Di or Cambo Wide RS with large format glass from Schneider/Rodenstock you simply MUST get one in your hands for a test before you buy anything else. It is, and I say this without equivocation, the highest quality which is currently attainable in medium format.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    thanks Doug

    the only MF I ever used was a Hasselblad H1 with P45

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    My (heavily biased) opinion is a Phase One P45+ [...] or an IQ160/180 [..] with a Tech camera and also a Phase One DF is the most versatile and high quality kit available.
    Doug, if I may ask you directly, what would you do if the only IQ back you could afford for your tech cam was the IQ140? I'm going back and forth and still can't make up my mind. The promise of being able to use the back without thethering, a great user interface but the 1.3 crop factor versus the P45+, more than 60 seconds exposure time and a larger sensor. (If Phase comes up with slightly extended exposure times, the former might be a non-issue.)

    Chris

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I'm going from a P40+ to IQ140 just for the tech. Personally i would not buy a P45+ unless i directly need more than 60 sec. for at least 15 percent of the use. Frankly if you can find a P30+ or P25+ that can go 30 minutes i would buy that as a backup /long exp. back. No question in my mind the IQ is worth the tech and after testing it even more so. I will have the IQ 180 in my hands again in Death Valley in two weeks and looking forward to see if Phase improved it more.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    the IQ 180 is very expensive and I don't need so many pixels, 40 pixels are enough for A2 prints

    IQ140 and Alpa ? or P45+ / P25+ and Alpa ?

    thanks

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Frankly if you can find a P30+ or P25+ that can go 30 minutes i would buy that as a backup /long exp. back.
    Thanks Guy, I never thought about it this way! Ok, one step closer to hell.

    Chris

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    the IQ 180 is very expensive and I don't need so many pixels, 40 pixels are enough for A2 prints

    IQ140 and Alpa ? or P45+ / P25+ and Alpa ?

    thanks
    That's my plan. I'm shooting P40+ & Alpa right now and I don't feel pixel challenged. The downside with the crop sensor is that you need wider glass for the same FoV and these get very expensive as you reach 28/24/23mm.

    I've actually been through the thought process of comparing a sensor upgrade to full 645 vs the incremental cost of a couple of super-wide lenses on my DF & Alpa - it get's pretty close price-wise (although not for IQ back yet).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Graham which Alpa do you have ? the STC ?

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I used to shoot with the Max but now I'm using the STC for the size convenience but at the cost of losing the front rise/fall which I seldom used along with shift. Absolutely loved the Max, but the STC suits me better for travel.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    IQ140 and Alpa ? or P45+ / P25+ and Alpa ?

    answer...

    IQ140 or P45+ and Arca RM3Di !
    the P45+ sensor is more convenient when a lot of movement is applied !

    Considering the sensor size, you can also use stitching... but sometimes it's not an option !

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    doug:

    bit of a typo on your tech camera article for the cambo wrs: tilt and swing are listed

    cambo wrs is a great product by the way, but you need to use lenses with a tilt/swing mount for each lens

  13. #13
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Arca RM3Di vs Alpa STC

    thanks to all

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    doug:

    bit of a typo on your tech camera article for the cambo wrs: tilt and swing are listed

    cambo wrs is a great product by the way, but you need to use lenses with a tilt/swing mount for each lens
    Not sure I'd call it a "typo" given that the top half of that page is meant to be a generic breakdown of the arguments of tech cameras vs. SLRs. We've been working to add the RM3Di to that page to show the other major tech camera option we endorse, but are just so darn busy. However, reading your comment I realize it could have been more clear and so have revised the wording a bit. Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Doug, if I may ask you directly, what would you do if the only IQ back you could afford for your tech cam was the IQ140? I'm going back and forth and still can't make up my mind. The promise of being able to use the back without thethering, a great user interface but the 1.3 crop factor versus the P45+, more than 60 seconds exposure time and a larger sensor. (If Phase comes up with slightly extended exposure times, the former might be a non-issue.)
    Slightly extended is always a realistic hope. But the Dalsa architecture is not a long-exposure architecture, and I would not buy an IQ140 if a limitation of one minute at ambient temperatures of 70ish degrees is going to significantly reduce your commercial or creative use of the camera.

    The larger sensor is significant issue for single frames, but much less of an issue if you're already planning on doing any stitching. A four-frame flat-stitch gains you a LOT of effective sensor size for wide-ness of view and increase in resolution.

    For instance a four shot stitch with a P40+ on a 43mm XL lens with 10mm of frame overlap is the same angle of view as a a single P45+ frame on a 28mm lens and would contain a net 120 megapixels of resolution compared to 39 megapixels. So you can see stitching can greatly change the equation on wideness of view. Note that I'm cherry picking here somewhat since the 43mm XL and 47mm XL have the two largest image circles for moderate-wide-angle lenses and therefore are the most dramatic example of lenses which can be stitched to achieve wider angles of view (these two lenses can handle 2, 3, 4, or even 6 or 9 frames from a P40+) without running out of image circle.

    Not to further complicate an already tough decision but the P40+ also has smaller pixels (6 microns versus 6.8 microns) which means some of the non-retro-focus very wide angle lenses (e.g. the 24mm XL and 35mm XL) are not recommended which somewhat lessens your wide-angle options when not stitching-for-wideness with a longer lens.

    I'm somewhat biased as there is alway motivation for me to recommend the "latest and greatest". I disclose that here, and admit it to myself in an effort to consciously overcome that tendency. Even so I find it hard to believe anyone could see an IQ back in person and recommend anything else over an IQ for tech camera use OTHER than if long exposures or cost is an issue (I'm not minimizing the importance of either of those issues). Other options have their own advantage/disadvantages (e.g. the rotating sensor, tilting screen, and relative pixel/$ value of an AFI-12R), but bottom line: I'd rather have an IQ on a tech camera than anything else - something I would rarely say before a final shipping version of a product is ready - the UI is just that far ahead of anything else.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    an issue can be also the pixels, I don't see what I can do with 60 or 80 MP for A2 prints and the IQ140 is not FF ...

    and what about Hasselblad H3D or H4D and HTS ?

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Doug, thanks a lot for your detailed answer, much appreciated!

    Chris

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    and what about Hasselblad H3D or H4D and HTS ?

    it's not a wide angle solution...

    focal length conversion factor 1.5x

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    with the 28mm it is wide enough for me, I dont like very wide angles

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    the 28 becomes a 42... similar to a 110XL in 4x5... i really like that focal length... but for architecture on assignment, if you need to go larger, then...

    i've just finish a job, all was made with stitching to obtain an 1x2 image... so easy to make with an RM3D...

    The HTS isn't compatible with all the lenses... really a limited tool in my opinion, but probably a good tool in term of quality.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    the HTS is compatible from 28 to 100 mm I think

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Doug -
    +1 for straightforward and clear answer. Much appreciated by all of us.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    the HTS is compatible from 28 to 100 mm I think
    To avoid any disappointment down the road the HTS is not compatible with the two zooms AFAIK (please someone jump in if I'm not correct).

    It is compatible with the 28m, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, & 100mm Lenses, multiplying the effective focal length of each lens by 1.5 and thereby allowing movement within the magnified image circle. It's really a very clever idea with it's own set of advantages/disadvantages - the limitation on wide-angles being the most prominent when asking about landscape/architecture.

    If Grover sees this I'd be interested to know what happens if you put one of the zooms or longer lenses on the HTS - i.e. does it let you take a picture but warn you that automatic corrections are not possible or does it prevent the shutter from being released, and if so can you override that? (earnest question). I'm also curious how the system registers/displays the max aperture since adding an optical magnifying element changes it's effective aperture (same amount of light - spread over a larger area).

    So many details to keep track of... I'm going to sleep!

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    To avoid any disappointment down the road the HTS is not compatible with the two zooms AFAIK (please someone jump in if I'm not correct).

    It is compatible with the 28m, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, & 100mm Lenses, multiplying the effective focal length of each lens by 1.5 and thereby allowing movement within the magnified image circle. It's really a very clever idea with it's own set of advantages/disadvantages - the limitation on wide-angles being the most prominent when asking about landscape/architecture.

    If Grover sees this I'd be interested to know what happens if you put one of the zooms or longer lenses on the HTS - i.e. does it let you take a picture but warn you that automatic corrections are not possible or does it prevent the shutter from being released, and if so can you override that? (earnest question). I'm also curious how the system registers/displays the max aperture since adding an optical magnifying element changes it's effective aperture (same amount of light - spread over a larger area).

    So many details to keep track of... I'm going to sleep!
    Well Peterson,

    Yes, you can use the 28, 35, 50, 80, 100.

    Eric - if you head over to hasselbladdigitalforum.com and join the conversation, there are a couple of landscape photographers using the HTS with great results. Indeed, not everyone wants a super wide angle for landscape, myself included.

    This way you have a T/S solution on a MF body with the luxury of a viewfinder and 'normal' camera handling.

    Other lenses will go on the HTS if physically possible (I don't know why you would want to put the zoom on it?).

    Indeed, Derek Jecxz on this forum and the forum mentioned above, fitted his HTS a 1.7x and an HC300 lens.

    The aperture indication is corrected based on the lens / HTS combo.

    Also your current T/S Settings are always shown on the hand grip. The HTS is laser aligned in the factory, so setting to zero is far more accurate than a click stop.

    We think of everything Doug.

    Grover

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    thanks to all


    David I am registered on hasselbladdigitalforum, I find that an upgrade of the H3D II 22mp is missing, something like a 30 MP FF or 1.1, for many user there is no needs for so many pixels

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Hi Erick,

    For sure - you can do a lot with 30MP!

    However, we feel that the 40MP offering from Kodak is superior for many reasons compared to some of the other options (33MP Dalsa) for example.

    30MP full frame would actually be a very bad choice for a sensor. The pixel sites would have to be quite large leading to moire issues and a loss of fine detail - not much good for landscapes at all.

    Try to get a demo of the H4D40 - I don't think you would be disappointed.

    David

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Hi Erick,

    For sure - you can do a lot with 30MP!

    However, we feel that the 40MP offering from Kodak is superior for many reasons compared to some of the other options (33MP Dalsa) for example.

    30MP full frame would actually be a very bad choice for a sensor. The pixel sites would have to be quite large leading to moire issues and a loss of fine detail - not much good for landscapes at all.

    Try to get a demo of the H4D40 - I don't think you would be disappointed.

    David
    David I know that the H4D 40 is a good camera but the sensor is 1.3, in that case I prefer a second hand H3D II 39 or 22 , I dont need true focus at all

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Ok Understood,

    Keep in touch with Hasselblad France as they will certainly let you know if any second hand models come up.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I am afraid MF will go in the future with 60 80 100 MP

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Not necessarily Erick.

    Not everybody wants a million MPs and sales figures show that.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Not necessarily Erick.

    Not everybody wants a million MPs and sales figures show that.
    yes but for 40 MP the sensor = 1.3
    a great choice for many of us will be to get 40 MP on FF (ISO 50 to 800 / 256 exposure time) , actually there is no MF with that possibility

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    yes but for 40 MP the sensor = 1.3
    a great choice for many of us will be to get 40 MP on FF (ISO 50 to 800 / 256 exposure time) , actually there is no MF with that possibility
    The H4D 40 works well for me, Erick. I have an H3D II 39 too. Apart from all the obvious advantages, I can now use my Lee Polariser without vignetting. I can also use the HCD 28 with a Lee universal hood and 2 grads. From my viewpoint, the 40 is a superb landscape machine, and more flexible than the larger sensor 39.

    I wouldn't even think of comparing the 39 at ISO 50 to the 40 at 100. There are better ways to go blind.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Jeff I know your landscapes from photo.net
    If you say that it is a great camera for landscape then maybe I have to think about it :-)

    do you use the HTS ?

    I have a Lee universal hood too + ND plates


    thanks

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Erick, I don't use an HTS, but for the same reason that I never went to a view camera. I want to make images, not fiddle with tilts and shifts. It just isn't my thing. I would look at the 40 very seriously. The smaller sensor is a great feature for me as I don't shoot wide very often and the other simplifying benefits with Lee gear are great.

    I contemplated trading my H3D on a P45+ back recently but decided that the gain just wasn't worth the pain. The 256 seconds on the H4D is all that I really need for most things. Longer would be better but it is something that I can live with.

    I'm glad to hear that you still remember me from PN.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    256 seconds is also enough for me
    there is no AA filter on the H4D 40 ?

    thanks a lot Jeff , I always appreciate your great landscapes

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    No AA filter on the H4D40.

    As Jeff says, the smaller sensor offers some advantages too.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    thanks

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    an issue can be also the pixels, I don't see what I can do with 60 or 80 MP for A2 prints and the IQ140 is not FF ...

    and what about Hasselblad H3D or H4D and HTS ?
    The HTS is limited, but worth the gadget bag space in some circumstances, I believe, if you have lenses with which it is compatible.

    I am thinking about a Sinar 86H for tech... a top end top budget system capable of daylight live view and multi-shot, ideal for most landscape and architecture, especially with the new Sinar eShutters... and I hope it will look good up-rezd to 44 * 58 inches (at 180 pixels per print inch... but with no AA filter or Bayer interpolation!)

    The Hasselblad H4D-60 is useful as an MFDSLR... and also useful for tech, (especially for landscapes including moving tree, waves etc.) especially as they will "soon" be selling a clip-on battery pack for it... and there are other Hasselblad backs for which you can get clip-on batteries.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    thanks Dick

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    what are the best MF for landscape and architecture (with tilt/shift but also Autofocus when not using TS lenses ) ?

    thank you
    If price is not an option, I would choose a Phase product. The open camera system platform has more options for landscape and interiors

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    with the 28mm it is wide enough for me, I dont like very wide angles
    Also look into upgrade options and transferable warranties. These should also be considered. The crop factor of any sensor is important, but you say you don't like very wide lenses, that IMO, are a must for L/A.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I dont like very wide angles without tS

    thank you

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    The crop factor of any sensor is important, but you say you don't like very wide lenses, that IMO, are a must for L/A.
    I hate wide angles, and, generally, the pictures they produce, but some Architecture you cannot do without them.

    I rarely see a WA landscape that would not have made a better picture with a longer lens.

    But I do have a 100 degree lens (and I hope to get it mounted sometime soon).

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Im very happy with my H4D-40... Before I bought it I was a wide shooter with the DSLR but adapted and now find it better.
    www.williamophuis.com

    Hassy H4D-40.

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    I think I shall go again with Blad :-)

    thanks to all
    thanks Jeff

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    I think I shall go again with Blad :-)

    thanks to all
    thanks Jeff
    I"m sure you'll like the H4d. I had one, but sold it for a Phase DB, simply because I wanted wider lenses to use on Alpa cameras.

  46. #46
    Member Jérôme.E's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Erick,

    For architecture photography you have to consider that with the blad 28mm + sensor crop 1.3 (or 1.1 with the 39) + HTS, your largest T/S lens would be something like 55mm (or 45mm) equivalent to a 35mm (28mm) for 24x36. You should get info with image circle too.
    I understand you don't like very wide lens but as you know, city streets in France are not wide as USA's one and sometimes a 28 or 35 (645) can really help you a lot.
    Same for me if could shoot always architecture with 80-110-200 it would be best but it never happen often in Paris ( i don't even talk about interiors ).
    If you make your living with this kind of pictures it is something to take care of.
    Like you i've made a lot of research to find a set that fit my wishes... sure it's hard because both systems have their qualities ( and a lot of weaknesses ) but for architecture (for landscape both are quite the same IMO) i think Phase/Leaf products are more useful, you can put them easily on Techcam with no microlens problems or use them with a lot of camera systems. You surely go one day or another for a Techcam because it is simply the best for architecture (for landscape too IMO). You could also stitch easily, even if you decide to choose a 42 Roden. as your largest lens, if you need to go wider.

    David said Dalsa sensor 22 or 33mp were a bad choice for that... pretty strange i never heard someone complaining with this set for architecture... some others think it is one of the best choice for movements on a Techcam, i haven't this DB but it's what i red often when i was searching... not to expensive and not too big files. Moire, hum not convinced... as far as you don't shoot fashion/textiles all times it won't happen often.
    This guy use a leaf dalsa 33mp with fashion... he doesn't seem to be disappointed with moire and a lack of details!! http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/
    About the loss of fine details with dalsa 33...!!!??? Yair/Doug... do you confirm

    If you can afford IQ backs they are certainly the best for those both photography categories.
    If you haven't red Jack/Guy's (and others) post about these yet... DO! I'd have waited for those if i hadn't bought mine already... as far as you shoot exteriors it seems so powerful and useful.

    Hope this help

    Nota: Are you ErickB from Chassimages??

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Erick, it's certainly been a good choice for me. A hands on trial with your friendly local dealer should be very informative.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jérôme.E View Post
    Erick,

    David said Dalsa sensor 22 or 33mp were a bad choice for that... pretty strange i never heard someone complaining with this set for architecture...
    Well, I use an aptus 22 for architecture and it is indeed frustrating. It is very common where I live for modern buildings to be fitted with blinds and other patterned features that provide endless opportunities for moire to appear, in many cases so severe that it can't be dealt with.

  49. #49
    Member Jérôme.E's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Really!! Oups sorry to hear it.
    You are the first i've heard and i questioned/red a lot about it months ago.
    With mine (II 10) i haven't seen such problems.
    Like to see crops

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: MF for landscape architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Not necessarily Erick.

    Not everybody wants a million MPs and sales figures show that.

    On the contrary, there is no question that MP counts will go 60, 80, 100. They're already at 60/80 from Leaf/Mamiya and Phase One. So, not sure why you seem uncertain, but perhaps you're only stating Hasselblad's intentions? In fact, there is no question they will go higher.

    I don't know that MP counts will ever get to a million. But in terms of sales figures, there is huge demand for higher megapixels if they're offered. I would say of all our IQ orders, at least 60% are for IQ180.

    Perhaps sales figures for Hasselblad reflect more demand for the H4D-40, which is a well priced and versatile kit, and I'm sure outsells the H4D-60 by a wide margin.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

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