On Camera Flash for Mamiya / Phase One

[shlomi]

I've tried Metz 54MZ-4 with SCA-3952, but the results are not great.

Previously I've used the Canon system where I could easily get perfect fill for sunny portraits, controlled as much as I wanted with 'M' mode and +/- on the flash.

With the Phase One 645AF and this Metz flash I can get OK results for interiors without people, but fill flash of people in the sun always overexposes them terribly.
I'm sure I am doing something wrong. The Metz manual is beyond my comprehension.


So some questions:

- What is the correct method for doing that?
- Is there a better on-camera flash I can get for this body?
- Since I hardly ever use this type of flash, maybe a better solution for me would be to get a battery operated monolight - what is recommended in the entry range of that?

 

[Aztecaphoto]

As for flash:
http://www.phaseone.com/en/search/article.aspx?articleid=1195&languageid=1

Overexposed portraits are often even with my Nikon. Try to down the output power about 1 or 2 steps, even 3 (with all in the middle). Also, remember that most cameras switch to "X" mode with a flash, so if you are using 1/250 it will go to 1/125.
Also check your light measure points. Average, centerweighted and spot are soooo different. And the Sca system uses a TTL flash measure "off the film", that some times could misslead your flash.
Check the page 82 on the manual. By the way, I downloaded the mamiya 645 AFDIII from mamiya site.It´s the same

Saludos

 

[shlomi]

Thanks.

But your link did not open for me.
Can you check it?
I would like to see to what you were referring.

 

[Aztecaphoto]

It didn´t open to me as well. Maybe a site down.
Also, perhaps you need to register in order to enter the phase one forums. A good idea, by the way.

 

[Aztecaphoto]

But, it says that you can use the Canon 580x in manual mode.
Or the metz that you mentioned, but in the manual (page 82 at the bottom) says

"With TTL flash photography, the reflection of the flash is metered and the intensity of
the flash is adjusted automatically, so TTL flash photography may not be able to suit
to all conditions. In the cases described below, we recommend that you use a flash
meter to check the intensity of the flash or to use a manual flash setting."

For example:
(1) When the size of the subject you want to light with the flash is relatively small within the
picture
(2) When the background behind the subject is extremely bright or when there is a strongly
reflective object in the background
(3) When the background behind the subject is extremely dark (outdoors at night, etc.)
(4) For flash photography with a narrow film latitude


1. While in the P or Av modes, the camera can be set to release the
shutter at the metered value, even if the background behind the
subject is dark. Custom settings (C-24 on page 95)
2. The sync. speed in the X mode can be set between 1/40 and 1/125
seconds. Custom settings (C-23 on page 95)
* When the shutter speed is set to 1/2 increments, the sync. speed can be set between 1/45 and 1/125
seconds.



Copied from pdf. A little tricky, but there you go.

 

[shlomi]

So if I understand correctly, automatic TTL fill flash for outside portraits is not possible with the 645 system?

From the list of exceptions it appears that one would need to use a flash meter and set the flash manually, so what's the point of an automatic TTL on camera flash - I might as well use a battery operated monolight and do it properly.

 

[Aztecaphoto]

So if I understand correctly, automatic TTL fill flash for outside portraits is not possible with the 645 system?

Is it possible, but I think you will have to cut down the output by 1-2 stops

 

[ondebanks]

Are you shooting film or a digital back on your PhaseOne 645AF?

IIRC, digital backs are less reflective than unprocessed film, which throws off the TTL-OTF flash sensing. The sensor would measure less light coming OTF, and decide that more flash power/duration is required to compensate, hence producing the overexposure you're getting.

It should be possible to set some flash compensation to correct this.

Ray

 

[Guy Mancuso]

So if I understand correctly, automatic TTL fill flash for outside portraits is not possible with the 645 system?

From the list of exceptions it appears that one would need to use a flash meter and set the flash manually, so what's the point of an automatic TTL on camera flash - I might as well use a battery operated monolight and do it properly.

You can still use the A mode on the Metz 54 which is solely on the flash itself. Regardless of what body you have the flash reads and adjusts the output you need for the ISO set and the Aperture set. Basically light goes out bounces back and flash makes the adjustment. TTL is a film based setting here. I use A mode all the time works pretty good but if your really in strong sunlight and using for fill you still will always be better off going manual. Obviously the flash sensor is also affect by the ambient light.

Bottom line no free hall pass here. But the A mode does work really just as good as TTL given the right circumstances.


Now there are tricks you can do with A mode is you can set your ISO differently than your camera. For instance for fill you can lower your ISO on the flash to say 100 but the camera is set for 400. The flash will output for ISO 100 which will put out more light or light for that ISO but your camera is ISO 400 . So the flash will put out 2 stops more light, which would be great for a backlight scene of someone with the sun behind them.

 

[shlomi]

I was using it with a digital back.

I tried A mode and M mode, with negative compensation, but the results were always poor.

I have used TTL flash with Canon systems with perfect results and no trouble - my conclusion is that this system is not that great at TTL.

I sold the Metz and got a battery operated monolight - I can control the power by turning a knob - I believe I will get good results from this. More difficult to set up, but the light should be much better.

 

[shlomi]

You can still use the A mode on the Metz 54
Now there are tricks you can do with A mode is you can set your ISO differently than your camera. For instance for fill you can lower your ISO on the flash to say 100 but the camera is set for 400. The flash will output for ISO 100 which will put out more light or light for that ISO but your camera is ISO 400 . So the flash will put out 2 stops more light, which would be great for a backlight scene of someone with the sun behind them.

What I really don't like is when I'm out with a customer I need to look at a tiny LCD screen with countless options and figure out what needs to be tweaked. With Canon I knew compensation -1/3, -2/3 one of them would be OK. Metz manual is very strange, and very small user community for this combo. There's nobody in Israel that I could ask about this to show me in real life.

 

[kdphotography]

Imagewise, you're better off to get the light off-camera. I find it much easier to use a handheld light meter to set my lights. If I need to move so quickly that I need an on-camera speedlite on TTL, it's probably not the type of grab-image that requires medium format digital, and the Canon makes its appearance...

ken

 

[gsking]

What I really don't like is when I'm out with a customer I need to look at a tiny LCD screen with countless options and figure out what needs to be tweaked. With Canon I knew compensation -1/3, -2/3 one of them would be OK. Metz manual is very strange, and very small user community for this combo. There's nobody in Israel that I could ask about this to show me in real life.

Yeah, that Metz is a bear to figure out. My favorite saying..."Don't Drink and Metz". It makes it really hard to get good photos.

Two things...

1. Overexposure can be expected in either mode in bright sunlight. The camera is exposing for ambient, and then you are overlaying a full exposure of flash. So you'll be 1 stop over on average.

Worse, if you're in A mode, it'll keep exposing until it gets enough reflection, which means with a small subject, you may get hot spots that are even more overexposed. I suppose the same could happen in TTL, and yes, the reflectivity of the digital sensor will change the readings.

2. If you prefer to set FC on the camera, you can shoot in TTL mode and not touch flash settings.

I notice the same issue shooting digital on my 645AF, made worse due to the MFDB not compressing the highlights. Instead, they just blow. POOF...gone.

 

[shlomi]

Imagewise, you're better off to get the light off-camera. I find it much easier to use a handheld light meter to set my lights. If I need to move so quickly that I need an on-camera speedlite on TTL, it's probably not the type of grab-image that requires medium format digital, and the Canon makes its appearance...

ken

This was my conclusion also.
The 645 is not a good system for walking around and unplanned work.
I couldn't afford to keep my Canon gear alongside the Phase One system, so I pass on walkaround jobs - not my cup of tea anyway.
I believe with more effort I could get the Metz to work acceptably, but after a few botched attempts, I gave up - I don't trust it.

 

[gsking]

This was my conclusion also.
The 645 is not a good system for walking around and unplanned work.
I couldn't afford to keep my Canon gear alongside the Phase One system, so I pass on walkaround jobs - not my cup of tea anyway.
I believe with more effort I could get the Metz to work acceptably, but after a few botched attempts, I gave up - I don't trust it.

Hmmm, I never had problems with mine, on film at least. Still getting used to walking around with it on digital, which (as mentioned above) is less forgiving.

Did you try setting both flash and camera to half-stop underexposure? That seemed to work for me. Two halves making a whole, and all that.