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Leaf 12 problems and poor service

jps

New member
Hi Everyone,

I am very sorry to have to post this but have been forced to by a frustrating lack of communication from Leaf.

My story is that i ordered and paid cash up front for a leaf AFI 12 as soon as they were announced last year.Leaf to their great credit gave me a loaner AFI 10 back - a terrific back and am very happy with it. The problem started when my 12 back arrived on the 24th February . It was immediately apparent that there was something not right about it. Specifically the infinity focus is out - it cant focus on infinity.It also has some weird corruption of files issues where lines appear in the photo or the photos just arent written to the CF card. I immediately notified my dealer and Leaf direct(got no reply from them) and sent the back back on 28 th February. The only information that has come back to me is that the back is in Israel - thats all- no eta or comments/acknowledgement/feedback on whats wrong with it.Ive had to repeatedly phone them - they have never phoned me without my prompting.- of course it was a different story before I handed over the cash ! they were constantly phoning /emailing me!

The last straw is I went to see them in person yesterday to get the latest news - none of course - they phoned the distributors and said they would get back to me - they haven't! I made it clear that I had been restrained in my response so far but would post something online if I didn't hear from them - even a call saying they are working on it but nothing!!! Oh well perhaps the power of the internet will provoke a response.

In the meantime I curious if anyone has had focus/sensor alignment issues or readout issues with the new 12 back??

I repeat just to be fair that I absolutely love the back ( from my experience with the 10 ) and am really writing this out of frustration because I would love to get my hands on a working 12 ( which I paid for nearly 5 months ago!)

Rant over

JOHN
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
I can totally understand your frustration. Who is the Leaf dealer in Australia? I have also heard negative stories about other medium format dealers in Oz - seems that Australian photographers are stuck with a bad bunch. Have you tried contacting Leaf's head office (not just the Oz rep)? Have you asked for a replacement back while they are working on your back? It seems you are without a back at the moment, and for some time, which is unacceptable. Hope you get some satisfaction soon!
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I'd communicate with Yair who is a very knowledgable Leaf representative, and frequently posts here on GetDpi.

-Marc
 

darr

Well-known member
Wow :eek: that's a lot of $ tied up with no product in hand and no communication from Leaf!
Thank you for posting as this gives me serious concerns about purchasing a Leaf.

Please tell your story as it unfolds--I will be in the market for a new back in the near future and I do purchase based on customer support issues.

Good luck and I hope Leaf gets off their poor attitude towards customers and starts talking to you!

Darr
 

jps

New member
Wow :eek: that's a lot of $ tied up with no product in hand and no communication from Leaf!
Thank you for posting as this gives me serious concerns about purchasing a Leaf.

Please tell your story as it unfolds--I will be in the market for a new back in the near future and I do purchase based on customer support issues.

Good luck and I hope Leaf gets off their poor attitude towards customers and starts talking to you!

Darr
Yeah and they are AUS $ - they are worth something at the moment !!!:)
 

gazwas

Active member
SHOCKING!! :O

You purchase their flagship product and get treated like crap. They should be jumping through hoops to help you out not avoiding you calls.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I too bought an Aptus 12 but didn't experience the customer feedback problems you describe. I wrote Yair an email and got fast response. Very fast, like in a few hours. Then I lost files two times. After a shooting they didn't appear on the CF card. I don't know why this is so ... and customer support couldn't help either. I blamed it on my CF card which isn't really new but I never had problems with it before. On the other hand, if I hear that you had similiar problems I'm curious to hear from more Aptus 12 users on this issue. It really is annoying when you lose files in such a weird way. During the shooting I even could preview them, just when loading the CF card onto my mac reader they aren't there anymore. Now I always format my cf before a shoot and since then it hasn't happened but ... weird.

Again, I have made a different experience regarding customer response.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi Everyone,

I am very sorry to have to post this but have been forced to by a frustrating lack of communication from Leaf.

My story is that i ordered and paid cash up front for a leaf AFI 12 as soon as they were announced last year.Leaf to their great credit gave me a loaner AFI 10 back - a terrific back and am very happy with it. The problem started when my 12 back arrived on the 24th February . It was immediately apparent that there was something not right about it. Specifically the infinity focus is out - it cant focus on infinity.It also has some weird corruption of files issues where lines appear in the photo or the photos just arent written to the CF card. I immediately notified my dealer and Leaf direct(got no reply from them) and sent the back back on 28 th February. The only information that has come back to me is that the back is in Israel - thats all- no eta or comments/acknowledgement/feedback on whats wrong with it.Ive had to repeatedly phone them - they have never phoned me without my prompting.- of course it was a different story before I handed over the cash ! they were constantly phoning /emailing me!

The last straw is I went to see them in person yesterday to get the latest news - none of course - they phoned the distributors and said they would get back to me - they haven't! I made it clear that I had been restrained in my response so far but would post something online if I didn't hear from them - even a call saying they are working on it but nothing!!! Oh well perhaps the power of the internet will provoke a response.

In the meantime I curious if anyone has had focus/sensor alignment issues or readout issues with the new 12 back??

I repeat just to be fair that I absolutely love the back ( from my experience with the 10 ) and am really writing this out of frustration because I would love to get my hands on a working 12 ( which I paid for nearly 5 months ago!)

Rant over

JOHN

John -

Unfortunate experience.

Summing up:

*infinity focus issue (possible sensor misalignment)
*file corruption
*poor communication, lack of action or status update

Now, we haven't heard Leaf's side - there's always two sides. I will say this is not characteristic of Leaf.

Sensor alignment issue should be an easy fix. I'm assuming the AFi-II 10 you had focused fine, and then the AFi-II 12 with the same body/lens did not?

The file issues - I would ask if you formatted first the CF Card in a Mac or PC in MS-DOS? And then quick formatted in the AFi-II 12? This is with multiple cards? And what raw processor did you utilize? And you say you went to see Leaf in person? In Tel Aviv?

Regarding the communication from Leaf - I don't know why this has happened. Would like to hear from Leaf. What has your distributor been telling you? What role has your distributor been playing?

So - you're saying you sent your AFi-II 12 in a month ago and Leaf will not tell you anything? You ask for status and they say...what?

I will say I have no reports of any issues so far with any of the AFi-II 12 units we've received. And we're actually getting them within 1 week of placing our order - no backorder.

John - keep us abreast of your progress (or lack of it) and hopefully we'll hear something from Leaf as well regarding this.


Steve Hendrix
 

jps

New member
I too bought an Aptus 12 but didn't experience the customer feedback problems you describe. I wrote Yair an email and got fast response. Very fast, like in a few hours. Then I lost files two times. After a shooting they didn't appear on the CF card. I don't know why this is so ... and customer support couldn't help either. I blamed it on my CF card which isn't really new but I never had problems with it before. On the other hand, if I hear that you had similiar problems I'm curious to hear from more Aptus 12 users on this issue. It really is annoying when you lose files in such a weird way. During the shooting I even could preview them, just when loading the CF card onto my mac reader they aren't there anymore. Now I always format my cf before a shoot and since then it hasn't happened but ... weird.

Again, I have made a different experience regarding customer response.
Hi Paul

i guess 25% of the photos I took were corrupted in some way.They either had lines running thru them or like your experience I would get pictures that seemed OK when reviewing them on the back but then fail to import.The thumbnail would be there when you opened the leaf software but it gave a error message when you tried to import it off the card.i found this to be particularly annoying as you have no warning at all when you take the picture that anything is wrong. I dont believe that this is a card issue as this problem occurred with cards that have NEVER given trouble in the 10 back - yes I formatted them for the 12 - they are sandisk 32G extreme IV - pretty standard stuff. As far as the infinity focus goes the sensor is just in the wrong position Im afraid - when the lens is set to infinity it focuses at about 2 meters!

JOHN
 

jps

New member
John -

Unfortunate experience.

Summing up:

*infinity focus issue (possible sensor misalignment)
*file corruption
*poor communication, lack of action or status update

Now, we haven't heard Leaf's side - there's always two sides. I will say this is not characteristic of Leaf.

Sensor alignment issue should be an easy fix. I'm assuming the AFi-II 10 you had focused fine, and then the AFi-II 12 with the same body/lens did not?

The file issues - I would ask if you formatted first the CF Card in a Mac or PC in MS-DOS? And then quick formatted in the AFi-II 12? This is with multiple cards? And what raw processor did you utilize? And you say you went to see Leaf in person? In Tel Aviv?

Regarding the communication from Leaf - I don't know why this has happened. Would like to hear from Leaf. What has your distributor been telling you? What role has your distributor been playing?

So - you're saying you sent your AFi-II 12 in a month ago and Leaf will not tell you anything? You ask for status and they say...what?

I will say I have no reports of any issues so far with any of the AFi-II 12 units we've received. And we're actually getting them within 1 week of placing our order - no backorder.

John - keep us abreast of your progress (or lack of it) and hopefully we'll hear something from Leaf as well regarding this.


Steve Hendrix
Hi Steve

yes it is unfortunate indeed! it was only out of frustration that I posted here .Not really sure who to blame - I suspect the Australian distributor - Ive given them plenty of chances to respond to me before resorting to the internet. Leaf international do seem OK - perhaps they need words with their Australian distributor.The role of the distributor is just silence - apart from saying the back is in Israel. I went to see my dealer in person - I live 400kms from him - in fact I ordered and paid for the back over the phone - without setting foot in the shop ! hows that for a easy customer!

As far as the file errors - Im using a mac and the leaf software - yes I KNOW about formatting cards and have done it correctly - the errors occurred with 4 different cards that have never given problems with the 10 back - so I dont believe that it is a card issue.

Thanks for your interest and I will certainly keep you informed

as I said before what makes it maddening is that i can see it has great potential - i love the files that come out of the 10 back.

Cheers JOHN
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Hi, John,

If you paid for your order over the phone, via credit card, you can tell your dealer to cancel your order and if they refuse to refund your money, you can initiate a dispute (as a chargeback) at your credit card company. Typically it takes a phone call, and after answering a few questions to ensure that the dispute is not frivolous, that is the end of the matter--your account may be credited immediately.

I had to do this once with Kurland Photo out of New York, for selling me a defective "new" lens and refusing to replace it.

If you wish, you can let your dealer know you will initiate a chargeback in, say 48 hours. Your dealer won't want this, of course, and will likely become very responsive. If not, you'll be able to try purchasing through another dealer.

Sorry to hear your are having trouble. This is helpful for us to hear though--thank you for sharing.

Hope that helps,
-Brad
 
R

richard.L

Guest
sounds discouraging.
I apologize in advance for my response about the FILE system failure. There is no excuse for a file save being regarded as the USER error. Any software system that ships for more than US$400 can report failure, so it should. This, even if the media isn't in. report media fail, media not found, media suspect,,,, something other than silence with a smile.
come to think of it, that makes a very dark branded T-Shirt "silence with a smile"

I bet that Leaf will come through and provide you the service you expected when you bought.

Again, sorry for making one of my few posts one that challenges the maker+dealer to be more responsible, yep, even FULLY responsible for how a customer feels. My response toward them would have taken a quiet, but much more direct response and none of you would have ever heard about it.

Yep, every story has as many sides as you want it to have. But in all stories of value, only one point of view has the true value; in the land of commerce, he who gets the money gets the blame.

richard laughlin,
 

jps

New member
Hi, John,

If you paid for your order over the phone, via credit card, you can tell your dealer to cancel your order and if they refuse to refund your money, you can initiate a dispute (as a chargeback) at your credit card company. Typically it takes a phone call, and after answering a few questions to ensure that the dispute is not frivolous, that is the end of the matter--your account may be credited immediately.

I had to do this once with Kurland Photo out of New York, for selling me a defective "new" lens and refusing to replace it.

If you wish, you can let your dealer know you will initiate a chargeback in, say 48 hours. Your dealer won't want this, of course, and will likely become very responsive. If not, you'll be able to try purchasing through another dealer.

Sorry to hear your are having trouble. This is helpful for us to hear though--thank you for sharing.

Hope that helps,
-Brad
Hi Brad

How are you? Did you go to Japan?

I actually sent them a cheque - its been cashed long ago! I dont want to cancel the order anyway - I just want a working camera.

To make matters worse Im going on a trip to Hong Kong tomorrow - the second trip Ive done now where I should have had the 12 back.

How is the lens?

All the best to you and your family
JOHN
 

jps

New member
sounds discouraging.
I apologize in advance for my response about the FILE system failure. There is no excuse for a file save being regarded as the USER error. Any software system that ships for more than US$400 can report failure, so it should. This, even if the media isn't in. report media fail, media not found, media suspect,,,, something other than silence with a smile.
come to think of it, that makes a very dark branded T-Shirt "silence with a smile"

I bet that Leaf will come through and provide you the service you expected when you bought.

Again, sorry for making one of my few posts one that challenges the maker+dealer to be more responsible, yep, even FULLY responsible for how a customer feels. My response toward them would have taken a quiet, but much more direct response and none of you would have ever heard about it.

Yep, every story has as many sides as you want it to have. But in all stories of value, only one point of view has the true value; in the land of commerce, he who gets the money gets the blame.

richard laughlin,
Hi Richard

Yes i agree. I have until now taken the quiet approach - that is my normal way of doing things - but I came to realise it was getting me nowhere.!

JOHN
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi Steve

yes it is unfortunate indeed! it was only out of frustration that I posted here .Not really sure who to blame - I suspect the Australian distributor - Ive given them plenty of chances to respond to me before resorting to the internet. Leaf international do seem OK - perhaps they need words with their Australian distributor.The role of the distributor is just silence - apart from saying the back is in Israel. I went to see my dealer in person - I live 400kms from him - in fact I ordered and paid for the back over the phone - without setting foot in the shop ! hows that for a easy customer!

As far as the file errors - Im using a mac and the leaf software - yes I KNOW about formatting cards and have done it correctly - the errors occurred with 4 different cards that have never given problems with the 10 back - so I dont believe that it is a card issue.

Thanks for your interest and I will certainly keep you informed

as I said before what makes it maddening is that i can see it has great potential - i love the files that come out of the 10 back.

Cheers JOHN

Thanks for that clarification John. It sounds like the distributor is not providing any real information (and maybe they're not getting any from Leaf, but that doesn't excuse them not pursuing this harder for a resolution).

And just one other question - I'm assuming the file corruption you're seeing is with using Leaf Capture 11.4 or higher? Have you also tried Capture One 6.1.1 with the same result?

At this point, I would say keep the heat on the dealer, and if they continue to be unresponsive, ask for a direct contact to Leaf from them.


Steve Hendrix
 

yaya

Active member
All,

I'm writing on the phone while driving so you'll have to excuse me for any typos,

We're investigating it right now to find what went wrong but first we need to make sure that John has something to work with for his trip

Can I please ask that everyone sit tight till we have all the info?

Thanks
 

jecxz

Active member
All,
We're investigating it right now to find what went wrong but first we need to make sure that John has something to work with for his trip
This is excellent customer service. Sounds like you're in good hands.

Driving while texting, maybe not so smart :) Be careful.

Kind regards,
Derek
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Hi Brad

How are you? Did you go to Japan?
Hi, John,

I did not go, my flight was the day of the earthquake and was cancelled. I rescheduled it for a week later, but given the reactor issues, I decided to postpone for a while.

Clearly there won't be much of a winter wildlife opportunity left this year, but obviously it's more important that the people in Japan get the help they need to heal and recover. Winter wildlife will be waiting next year.

I actually sent them a cheque - its been cashed long ago! I dont want to cancel the order anyway - I just want a working camera.
Ok, then this won't work, of course. Even if it did, often being upset enough to take your business elsewhere can be enough to motivate the seller to deal with you respectfully (ie. in a timely, appropriate manner). And if not, like I said, I am certain there would have been other dealers willing to get you going. :)

To make matters worse Im going on a trip to Hong Kong tomorrow - the second trip Ive done now where I should have had the 12 back.
Ouch--that really sucks. Fingers crossed that Yair can find something in time for you. Or hopefully there will be a third opportunity once your kit is sorted!

How is the lens?
The 55 is a spectacular lens. It's a bit big large, and I do wish it could swing, but it has been a joy to use. Thank you!

All the best to you and your family
JOHN
Thanks, John. Thankfully my Japanese inlaws are well out of the impacted area, near Osaka. They are shaken, of course, but well.

Best regards to you as well--I am hoping your issues are resolved soon. Please do keep us posted on developments.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
All,

I'm writing on the phone while driving so you'll have to excuse me for any typos,

We're investigating it right now to find what went wrong but first we need to make sure that John has something to work with for his trip

Can I please ask that everyone sit tight till we have all the info?

Thanks
This is why I love you guys being here. I love having the support of the OEM's on this forum and the dealer network. I'm sure this will get resolved in short order.
 
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