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Thread: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

  1. #151
    Jim2
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Pardon the interruption but which technical cameras allow enough movement to use the full image circle of the 47XL?

    Thanks,
    Ed
    Good question Ed! I too am wondering whether one can just use the shift ability of the Arca rm3di to stitch or whether a sliding back is needed to do it.

  2. #152
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Red face Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Pardon the interruption but which technical cameras allow enough movement to use the full image circle of the 47XL?

    Thanks,
    Ed
    My Alpa Max had enough rise to go as far as I felt was correctable in sw for image fall off with the 47 APO-Digitar & P40+. At 25mm there was enough fall off that was corrected by LCC in C1 Pro to have noticable noise. For those extremes I'd consider using a center grad vs software correction even on a Dalsa sensor.

    This is an example of full rise/fall & P40+ & 47 (btw, I should have used more rise vs tilting to avoid the keystoning but that's another story ...). The software correction of drop off is visible at the extreme top/bottom with associated noise :
    http://grahamwelland.com/MultnomahFallsIce/index.htm
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 15th April 2011 at 18:58.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  3. #153
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Jim2

    I have recently purchased a 645DF with a P65+ back with an automatic upgrade to the IQ160 when they arrive. Why have I chosed this option?

    Figured much like you that a MF system would enhance my enjoyment in capturing the finer details of life and ever since I went to Art School, have enjoyed creating larger images. Also I purchased a Cambo Wide DS with a 35mm lens at the same time to use with the P65+ back. Sort of the money I saved by not going to the IQ180 price point just for the camera.

    What have I found?
    Well at present I am struggling to fully realise the benefit of 60MP over my Canon 5D or 1DMk4. I am happy to use Mirror Up, cable operated shutter or time delay, tripod and such. However I have taken nearly 200 exposures and still working on getting all my technical and creative ducks in a row. I have not found it a free lunch - but I am learning heaps and the struggle is doing no harm.

    Seems to me the experienced MF users on this forum are doing lots of small things right which are adding up to great results for their images. I have seen many of your images and I feel sure you would not be wasting your money BUT - BUT it does seem to take some time to master the many small intrusions into the creative process that can result in a "promising but unachieved image".

    Cheers from Mal
    Toowoomba

    Well

  4. #154
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Seriously give yourself about a month of shooting and you will get great results. It takes time to get it all down to a workflow and understanding how the system works and functions. Trust me this is normal even for the very experienced shooter. Have some patience and try not to get to frustrated remember this is a normal process you just have to get through. And Mal color me jealous but you made a good choice.The IQ 160 is going to be a awesome back. Like I said earlier you save a good chunk of money from the 180 and obviously you put that to good use with a cambo setup.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  5. #155
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Mal,
    curious, what lenses are you using with your DF?
    P65+ back very demanding on lenses, technique, and focus is critical.

    have you tried your cambo wide with your 35? those results should be outstanding.

    If you are not getting the iq you had hoped from your DF, you may have some alignment issue and or bad samples lenses. For the money you sare spending i would be back at your dealerand have it all checked out.

    steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  6. #156
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    I would sum up my feelings in this way...........Very few sailboat owners (no not the huge ones but ones less than $100K) operate with commercial contracts. They own the boat because they love sailing and it makes them feel "special." Similarly for those who own Porsches! A Prius gets you to the same place at 1/5 the price but getting there is something special in Germany's best.

    The point being that trying to justify cost is a hopeless enterprise. I couldn't really afford the S2 system but I now wouldn't want to be without it! I love the results but if truth be known, I love the entire experience of shooting Leica. The quality of the lenses, the build quality of the body etc etc and the ease of shooting makes this a special experience for me. Does that "justify" paying this much money for something from which I earn no income. Sure it does! It is actually the pros who have to look so closely at cost because if one brand over another doesn't create more income for them they have to justify the bucks.

    Just my 2 cents worth

    Woody

  7. #157
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Jim2

    I have recently purchased a 645DF with a P65+ back with an automatic upgrade to the IQ160 when they arrive. Why have I chosed this option?

    Figured much like you that a MF system would enhance my enjoyment in capturing the finer details of life and ever since I went to Art School, have enjoyed creating larger images. Also I purchased a Cambo Wide DS with a 35mm lens at the same time to use with the P65+ back. Sort of the money I saved by not going to the IQ180 price point just for the camera.

    What have I found?
    Well at present I am struggling to fully realise the benefit of 60MP over my Canon 5D or 1DMk4. I am happy to use Mirror Up, cable operated shutter or time delay, tripod and such. However I have taken nearly 200 exposures and still working on getting all my technical and creative ducks in a row. I have not found it a free lunch - but I am learning heaps and the struggle is doing no harm.

    Seems to me the experienced MF users on this forum are doing lots of small things right which are adding up to great results for their images. I have seen many of your images and I feel sure you would not be wasting your money BUT - BUT it does seem to take some time to master the many small intrusions into the creative process that can result in a "promising but unachieved image".

    Cheers from Mal
    Toowoomba

    Well
    Hi Mal, I had a chance to have lunch at Picnic Point during my visit to OZ. The area in and around Toowoomba is beautiful. Hopefully next time it won't rain (hard) the whole time I'm there.

    I had a difficult time switching from the P45 to P65+ and understand exactly how you feel. When I switched from Canon to P30+ I had immediate improvements in DR, IQ, and resolution (from the first exposure) but the P65+ took a little time.

    Enough time that I wondered if I had made a mistake making the upgrade.

    The jump to 60MP showed a lot of flaws in both equipment and technique. Glass that worked great with the P45 needed to be calibrated to work at it's best with the P65+. My whole shooting and focusing techniques had to be tweaked as well playing havoc with the creative process. It's difficult to have a creative vision when your head is so consumed by technique.

    Hopefully I've learned a little and the IQ180 upgrade will go more smoothly.

  8. #158
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    My Alpa Max had enough rise to go as far as I felt was correctable in sw for image fall off with the 47 APO-Digitar & P40+. At 25mm there was enough fall off that was corrected by LCC in C1 Pro to have noticable noise. For those extremes I'd consider using a center grad vs software correction even on a Dalsa sensor.

    This is an example of full rise/fall & P40+ & 47 (btw, I should have used more rise vs tilting to avoid the keystoning but that's another story ...). The software correction of drop off is visible at the extreme top/bottom with associated noise :
    http://grahamwelland.com/MultnomahFallsIce/index.htm
    Thanks for the example Graham, sorry I missed the response until now.

    I guess I'm not far from that on the Cambo at 20mm with the P65+.

  9. #159
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Mal,
    curious, what lenses are you using with your DF?
    P65+ back very demanding on lenses, technique, and focus is critical.

    have you tried your cambo wide with your 35? those results should be outstanding.

    If you are not getting the iq you had hoped from your DF, you may have some alignment issue and or bad samples lenses. For the money you sare spending i would be back at your dealerand have it all checked out.

    steven
    Thanks Steven for your feedback.

    I am away for the next two days exploring parts of the Granite Belt, so will have time to test the three lens I have for the 645DF (35mm, 55mmLS and of course the 80mm LS that is standard equipment), also taking the Cambo Wide DS with the 35MM Schneider lens. So hopefully by early next week I may have a set of images to discuss with my dealer and some more valuable experience with the P65+ system.

    Have a great week end.


    Mal

  10. #160
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Hi Mal, I had a chance to have lunch at Picnic Point during my visit to OZ. The area in and around Toowoomba is beautiful. Hopefully next time it won't rain (hard) the whole time I'm there.

    I had a difficult time switching from the P45 to P65+ and understand exactly how you feel. When I switched from Canon to P30+ I had immediate improvements in DR, IQ, and resolution (from the first exposure) but the P65+ took a little time.

    Enough time that I wondered if I had made a mistake making the upgrade.

    The jump to 60MP showed a lot of flaws in both equipment and technique. Glass that worked great with the P45 needed to be calibrated to work at it's best with the P65+. My whole shooting and focusing techniques had to be tweaked as well playing havoc with the creative process. It's difficult to have a creative vision when your head is so consumed by technique.

    Hopefully I've learned a little and the IQ180 upgrade will go more smoothly.
    Ed


    I have seen some of the splendid images you have taken while in Australia. An inspiration to get out on the road in Oz.

    Thanks for the words of encouragement - surely part of what forums like this are really good at.

    I guess my naivety means I am in a great spot to learn a lot more in the very near future.


    Thanks again.


    Mal

  11. #161
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Mal,
    When you get back, I would for sure have your DF, P65+ and lenses checked out.
    I agree with Ed, though, the P65+ needs everything perfect, and I know from talking to some local Phase dealers in the US, even the new Phase 35mm which is really the same as the mamiya "i think" is not that good of a performer on the P65+. Check with Jack on the forum, I think he has a lot of experience with the 35mm + the P65,
    If it were me, for WA i would stick with your cambo, and for 80mm and above the DF should do a fine job with you P65+.
    WA on MF DSLR systems is very challenging, especially when you up the resolution.
    Up to 39mp I think if you are lucky and get a good copy of a 35mm lens your ok, but that is the challenge.

    Good luck.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  12. #162
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Woody, couldn't agree more....


    Steven
    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I would sum up my feelings in this way...........Very few sailboat owners (no not the huge ones but ones less than $100K) operate with commercial contracts. They own the boat because they love sailing and it makes them feel "special." Similarly for those who own Porsches! A Prius gets you to the same place at 1/5 the price but getting there is something special in Germany's best.

    The point being that trying to justify cost is a hopeless enterprise. I couldn't really afford the S2 system but I now wouldn't want to be without it! I love the results but if truth be known, I love the entire experience of shooting Leica. The quality of the lenses, the build quality of the body etc etc and the ease of shooting makes this a special experience for me. Does that "justify" paying this much money for something from which I earn no income. Sure it does! It is actually the pros who have to look so closely at cost because if one brand over another doesn't create more income for them they have to justify the bucks.

    Just my 2 cents worth

    Woody
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

  13. #163
    Jim2
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    J
    What have I found?
    Well at present I am struggling to fully realise the benefit of 60MP over my Canon 5D or 1DMk4. I am happy to use Mirror Up, cable operated shutter or time delay, tripod and such. However I have taken nearly 200 exposures and still working on getting all my technical and creative ducks in a row. I have not found it a free lunch - but I am learning heaps and the struggle is doing no harm.
    Hi Mal,

    What exactly are the issues / challenges / problems that you're having? Are you having trouble getting sharp images? Even with Cambo?

  14. #164
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Jim, if it were me and money was not the issue, go for the RM3di for you WA work, and get a Phase DF for 80mm and above, If you are not printing huge I would go for the 40MP back. P65+ is so demanding, and the newer backs being released will be no different, very demanding, everything must be perfect. I would save the money, and sign up for some of Guy and Jacks workshops, and most importantly, is you do go for a phase back, become a Capture 1 expert.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  15. #165
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    JIf you are not printing huge I would go for the 40MP back. P65+ is so demanding, and the newer backs being released will be no different, very demanding, everything must be perfect.
    I'm not sure that shooting with a P65+ is any more demanding in terms of technique that a P40+ or P45+ since the sensor pitch is the same and hence need for stable platform, accurate focusing and limited DoF are pretty much identical I would assume. Obviously the P65+ or newer 80mp backs will have a greater stress on the performance of your lenses, particularly wides, since for a given focal length you're using more of the glass and reaching out of the lens sweet spots. I'd certainly agree that as pixel pitch gets smaller (80mp+) there's definitely less room for sloppy technique as it'll become abundantly clear.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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