Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

[lowep]

tech camera uses less batteries than 1ds

 

[Jim2]

Here is another opinion. For the OP, at least, before acquiring an Alpa and a set of lenses to go with it, I would urge him to try out the experience of shooting with a tech camera by taping off the viewfinder in his Canon 1ds and turning off the autofocus and the Live View. Take some photographs and ask yourself, would these photographs have been exceptional if only I had used sharper lenses? The answer to me is clear.
An untethered tech camera suffers from a number of disadvantages as a platform for landscape work. No ability to precisely frame the composition, no ability to "see" the perspective of the lens by looking through the lens(and the wider the lens, the more difficult it is to "see" that way), no ability to focus through the lens, no autofocus, no internal metering. What do you gain? The use of slightly sharper lenses that give you the theoretical possibility of slightly sharper images, which is very difficult to achieve in the field, particularly if you want to shoot multiple frames for focus stacking. And really, how many images would you take with a Phase DF where you would say that one of your images would really have been compelling if only you had a bit more sharpness?

Sounds pretty sobering. Some of the things I am wondering about using Phase One + Arca rm3di:
- Framing / composing - will I use live view or ground glass (yes for the reason you mentioned - the ability to see through the lens). It was suggested that the View Finder is really good but I am sceptical about its framing accuracy, in fact sure that it won't be accurate - the solution is take the shot, adjust, retake, review on back, adjust, repeat.

- The usability in highly dusty and windy environment (slot canyons, dunes / desert with blowing sand, beaches with salt water vapour and sand blowing, misty waterfalls, slight rain). I remember while in the slot canyons and other sandy areas... my ears and nose were full of sand! Sand got into my 'weather sealed' canon L lens and a lot got onto the 1ds3 sensor too.

- Related to the above: using ground glass whether it is by taking off the back and putting on GG and taking it off and putting the back on - or by using a sliding back - would make the sensor or the sliding back mechanism to catch those dust / salt water vapour etc. The only solution I think is to 'seal' the back onto the camera using some sort of duct tape, and use live view for composing and focusing. This is one thing that I am REALLY REALLY wondering about.

I am starting to sound like a sour grape already

Dropping 55K on a camera is very different to buying a luxury car. I know for sure that there won't be much going wrong with a luxury car and that almost everything about it will be a joy to experience.

But yeah I might add P45+ into my consideration thanks!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

My suggestion for what it is worth since you want to jump in to MF than I can offer this up since I have a lot of experience shooting ALL of the Phase backs. If you really want to go new and really want to use a tech cam than my immediate thought would be the IQ 140. Its a great step in with the new tech and you can really see what your doing shooting with a tech cam. I would also buy it as a package which you get a DF and a 80 for a few bucks more. Worth it to buy like that and you have a regular cam if the tech cam bugs you and you can go long. Lets get down to facts it is half the price of the 180 and with that savings you could buy a Alpa 3 lenses and still have change left over.

2 things can happen . You hate a tech cam , very easy to sell a Alpa STC on this forum with the 3 lenses if all turns to hell in a hand basket and you don't like shooting this way. A lot of folks don't as it maybe too slow with working with it. Trust me I have taught 14 workshops and I see everything. Second regardless your still in MF with the 140 the latest tech with a DF and 80 which you can build on for not too much money buying lenses.

3rd I added one you actually have 2 separate systems sharing the same back which gives you many shooting options.

Okay now for the down and dirty order it today through one of our site sponsors with DF and 80 and you get a P40+ DF and 80 today to use until the 140 is delivered. Double check with your dealer on this. If you do the math at the end of the day you may just have two complete systems with several lenses for each and still have change in your pocket plus you get the tech which is the same tech as the 180 just in a smaller package. Now you have to take my word for this the P40 sensor will blow anything away in 35mm PERIOD. I have had the P25+,P30+ and P40+ with 16k in actuations on it. Nothing comes close except for the 60 and 80 mpx sensors and also there is ZERO difference between the P65 and P40 except sensor size and more detail of course. Lets add another dimension here have you priced a Alpa system out . 3 lenses and a STC will hit you for about 15k . Really need to put pen to paper and get the math done. Now not to say do not buy the 180 which is freaking awesome BTW. I have shot it twice now and pretty extensively as a Prototype and it smokes anything out there.

First do the math than buy whatever YOUR comfortable with. If you go wrong it may not be as big as a issue since everything you bought is the latest tech and much easier to sell. I'm a Phase shooter and i tried them all and there is not one back I would not recommend given the shooting style. Obviously tech cam stay away from the P30+ since it has micro lenses. All the IQ's will be fine so take your pick but just because a 180 is twice the price of the 140 does not mean it is twice as good. You really paying for the making of larger chips which is expensive. Sure it is better no question but how much money do you want to throw out to find out.

Now for the real brass tax. I'm a 35 year working Pro and when it comes to buying gear I leave my bloody ego at the door and let my practical side speak( and i am the biggest gear slut here). You do NOT have to have the absolute best as your neighbor, it will not make you any better than anyone with less expensive gear. I teach workshops and our attendees have better gear than me. And good for them and happy they do but it means nothing in the field unless it actually helps make the process of shooting better. The IQ will do that especially with a tech cam. It will with a DF also as you can confirm everything your doing. Do NOT get caught up in having the most expensive gear will make you better, your wasting your money thinking that but getting stuff that works and frees your mind is a good thing. Starting out I believe the IQ will be extremely helpful.

 

[Jim2]

If you have not done so already, reckon on spending a substantial amount on a workstation, monitor, printer, colour management system, tripod + head etc. This forum and the Mac Performance Guide will show you how to drop a lot of money on the peripherals ;-)

Yep!

Mac Pro: 7-9K
Eizo monitor: 5.5K
i1 Pro: 3.5K
24" printer (no doubt high MP will mean bigger printer): 4K
Ink: 1K per set for refill
Roll Paper.....
Tripod: 0.8K
Head: 1.7K
travel expenses: 6-8K/month (motel, car rental, fuel, food) - multiply this by 5-6 per year: 48K/year
travel tickets: 2K per trip on average (long haul, inter-continental flights)
Photography "workshops": $2-6K / workshop
Other sundry expenses: xxxx

Probably add:
disto meter: 0.5K
value added warranty: 4K (for phase one)
Insurance for the camera: (haven't asked yet)

 

[Jim2]

My suggestion for what it is worth since you want to jump in to MF than I can offer this up since I have a lot of experience shooting ALL of the Phase backs. If you really want to go new and really want to use a tech cam than my immediate thought would be the IQ 140.
..... removed for brevity....
Do NOT get caught up in having the most expensive gear will make you better, your wasting your money thinking that but getting stuff that works and frees your mind is a good thing. Starting out I believe the IQ will be extremely helpful.

Guy, I think Phase One should hire you as their sales manager! (imagine all the perks that come with it.... think free use of IQ180!!!) I am being sincere here - you pose a very compelling argument!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL I am available, my wife would love for me to have a real job. I know I am very good at this stuff and they should hire me but I do believe in the product and that is number one for me. I help a lot of folks as well as Jack does and we take our advice and suggestions very seriously as we always want to be honest and help folks. We both get a lot of e-mails and PM's on this everyday and neither one of us makes a nickel on it. But seriously I would not mind having a job with them. Anyone listening. LOL

 

[stephengilbert]

Forget sales manager; hire Guy to come along on your photo trips, point out what you want photographed, and voila: photos.

It'll save a ton of money, and you'll have someone to drink with.

 

[Jim2]

Forget sales manager; hire Guy to come along on your photo trips, point out what you want photographed, and voila: photos.

LOL LOL LOL!!!!!! :ROTFL:

 

[lance_schad]

Forget sales manager; hire Guy to come along on your photo trips, point out what you want photographed, and voila: photos.

It'll save a ton of money, and you'll have someone to drink with.

I have been thinking the same thing. Guy could travel with you , with his equipment, teach you while your shooting together, help with your post processing and output. Then after a while when your comfortable you can purchase a system. Not a bad idea.

L

 

[Guy Mancuso]

we do have a workshop

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=306641#post306641

 

[Jack]

The reality is this: If you're a hobbyist, you can only justify expenses relative to the intangibles you gain from immersing yourself in said hobby. If it relieves stress, it may lengthen your life and make you more enjoyable to be around -- how much is that worth in dollars? If it eliminates the need for you to visit a psychoanalyst that charges $400/hour every week, then it may pay for itself over time. Also, high end camera gear is not usually a "sunk" cost -- it usually retains some value should you decide to bail. (Some gear, or exceptionally good copies of lenses, can even increase in value!) OTOH, if it's going to mostly sit in the closet while you only talk about it in an online forum, then you probably ought to look for another hobby!

Of course my vote is get all that gear, then come on a workshop to learn how to use it!

:ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

 

[Jim2]

Maybe I should go check out Pentax 645D vs Phaseone P40+ threads. Maybe for a hobbyist, a Pentax 645D is good enough, gives me the pleasure of taking photos and ability to print big-ish, either way, a significant step up in quality from 1ds3........... and at $15-$20K (with lenses) - relatively a pocket change compared to P40+, rm3di and lenses (28K). I guess I need to think through the lenses combinations here.

The advantage of pentax being its weather sealing, great battery life, hand holdability, a lot less 'surprises'/unknowns (to me) than Phase system. Except that I'll have to use auto focus instead of manual focusing that I'm used to. eeek!

.....still thinking...............

 

[Professional]

And why don't you add Hasselblad H4D option there? there is also Leica S2 if this will not suit you as well, i may understand why Phase One, but if you added Pentax 645D then you better add other MF brands, in fact i think you should think about Phase One vs. Hasselblad more than P1 vs. Pentax.

Good luck!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well i think the song changed here. Where we not talking about a tech cam. If that is the case than it is either Leaf, Phase or Hassy. The Pentax and S2 are not candidates for a tech cam.

 

[dick]

Well i think the song changed here. Where we not talking about a tech cam. If that is the case than it is either Leaf, Phase or Hassy. The Pentax and S2 are not candidates for a tech cam.

...yes, if you want movements, then a tech cam is the real thing, with movements for all lenses - even if you have to have a different tech cam, or WA bellows or whatever for Ultra-wide angles.

¿does no-one else want movements on 200mm lenses?

 

[asf]

Would you feel better spending half as much on a system and the other half on philanthropy?

 

[fotografz]

Well i think the song changed here. Where we not talking about a tech cam. If that is the case than it is either Leaf, Phase or Hassy. The Pentax and S2 are not candidates for a tech cam.

Here's something appropriate to this discussion ... should be the mascot image for the MFD forum ...

If you don't have the Chedda, ya can't buy something betta. :ROTFL:

(I first shot this with a S2 and 120 Macro lens BUT couldn't get enough DOF to get it all in focus without moving back ... so I shot it again with a H4D/60 and HTS tilt-shift adapter and 100/2.2 with a 13mm extension tube @ f/41 and it's all in focus without moving back or cropping to fill the frame. That's my version of a "Tech Camera" these days Take it off, and it's a regular camera again.

Frankly, if I were going 100% pure tech camera, I wouldn't even consider anything but a Phase One IQ ...

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree Marc the IQ is the king of the road for a tech cam. It actually answers the real question of the day. Did I get it and that is the one everyone walks away from taking there shot ask. Those little clouds that pop off your head like hope I nailed the focus, I hope i was square, i hope I shot what I thought I was shooting. I know all the tech cam folks are going YUP

 

[Godfrey]

Just read through the whole thread again.

On reflection, I think the answer is much like the response given a customer who asked the price in a Ferrari dealership, "If you have to ask the question, you shouldn't buy the car."

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc can I borrow that C note to ad to my o' **** upgrade piggy bank