The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
BTW I loved that 47mm XL Schneider Doug is talking about. Maybe the best focal length to have on the FF sensors.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
My idea would be:
- for 2 lenses: 43mm xl (if I need wider, I will stitch)
- 120mm (also stitch if needed)

For 3 lens combo:
- 43, 120, 210

Comments?
Does the term FISH OR CUT BAIT apply here?

Normally one has an either or question that has an end point...all of us have entered at some point and either stayed there or moved on a bit.

As the saying goes...come on in, the water's fine.

Any of the above will smoke technically the captures of HCB, AA anf EdW...
all we need is vision and talent.

Just an observation,

Bob
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've been using Schneider 35, 72 and 120mm lenses with my WRS for several years now and very pleased with the range and results. I've been tempted going longer to a 150. I've also thought about the 47mm but just like the 35 too much.
 

ustein

Contributing Editor
>I can't imagine hiking up a mountain for 6 hours carrying the Arri in my backpack!

Not a problem, you have a crew :)
 
J

Jim2

Guest
And btw where did we get 55 k. I think 42k for a back, must have added the Alpa gear.
Actually my latest calculation (keeping this all in a spreadsheet, prices, weight of individual components etc) adds up to 58K++

Each system includes camera body and 3 lenses.

I haven't added any taxes and duties for when I'm bringing this into Australia - it'll be another 10% on top.
 

PeterL

Member
Doug's advice is excellent as always. I would just add that you can download the Alpa calculator (here) and do these calculations yourself.

I think the weight numbers you mention must be without lens mount/board or maybe shutter. The 120mm Digitar is about 600g in Alpa mount, the 210mm about 1kg. The 47mmXL is 370g and 43mmXL 382g.

I've chosen the 47mmXL and 100mm Digitars on an Alpa.

Cheers, -Peter
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Doug's advice is excellent as always. I would just add that you can download the Alpa calculator (here) and do these calculations yourself.

I think the weight numbers you mention must be without lens mount/board or maybe shutter. The 120mm Digitar is about 600g in Alpa mount, the 210mm about 1kg. The 47mmXL is 370g and 43mmXL 382g.

I've chosen the 47mmXL and 100mm Digitars on an Alpa.

Cheers, -Peter
Wow, huge difference in weight for 120 and 210 compared to what I thought they were! Thanks!

I think the alpa mount is slightly heavier because of the square plate vs on Arca they are just some kind of bayonet / thread. Nevertheless, you're right that the weight I listed were just the lens without the mount.

This brings the total camera weight of Phase back + rm3di + 3 lenses to about 4kg!
 

dick

New member
Schneider 43mm XL, 47mm XL or 120mm would fit three horizontal IQ180 frames stacked vertically (for a tall vertical pano strip). It would also fit three vertical IQ180 images stacked horizontally (for a wide landscape pano) but it would require 30mm of movement of shift left/right to do the wide-pano which only a few of the tech cameras have.



Doug Peterson
BTW I loved that 47mm XL Schneider Doug is talking about. Maybe the best focal length to have on the FF sensors.
My Sinar P3 has plenty of movement, even more than the standard P3, as I converted it from a P2.

The Hasselblad H4D-60 has the same sensor dimensions as the P65+.

The Schneider Apo-Digitar 150 and 210 also have large enough image circles.

I think that the MF tech lenses shorter than the 43 are not worth gadget bag room, and they tend to need special WA pancake cameras.
 

etrump

Well-known member
Pardon the interruption but which technical cameras allow enough movement to use the full image circle of the 47XL?

Thanks,
Ed

Schneider 43mm XL, 47mm XL or 120mm would fit three horizontal IQ180 frames stacked vertically (for a tall vertical pano strip). It would also fit three vertical IQ180 images stacked horizontally (for a wide landscape pano) but it would require 30mm of movement of shift left/right to do the wide-pano which only a few of the tech cameras have.



Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Pardon the interruption but which technical cameras allow enough movement to use the full image circle of the 47XL?

Thanks,
Ed
Good question Ed! I too am wondering whether one can just use the shift ability of the Arca rm3di to stitch or whether a sliding back is needed to do it.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Pardon the interruption but which technical cameras allow enough movement to use the full image circle of the 47XL?

Thanks,
Ed
My Alpa Max had enough rise to go as far as I felt was correctable in sw for image fall off with the 47 APO-Digitar & P40+. At 25mm there was enough fall off that was corrected by LCC in C1 Pro to have noticable noise. For those extremes I'd consider using a center grad vs software correction even on a Dalsa sensor.

This is an example of full rise/fall & P40+ & 47 (btw, I should have used more rise vs tilting to avoid the keystoning but that's another story ...). The software correction of drop off is visible at the extreme top/bottom with associated noise :
http://grahamwelland.com/MultnomahFallsIce/index.htm
 
Last edited:

malmac

Member
Jim2

I have recently purchased a 645DF with a P65+ back with an automatic upgrade to the IQ160 when they arrive. Why have I chosed this option?

Figured much like you that a MF system would enhance my enjoyment in capturing the finer details of life and ever since I went to Art School, have enjoyed creating larger images. Also I purchased a Cambo Wide DS with a 35mm lens at the same time to use with the P65+ back. Sort of the money I saved by not going to the IQ180 price point just for the camera.

What have I found?
Well at present I am struggling to fully realise the benefit of 60MP over my Canon 5D or 1DMk4. I am happy to use Mirror Up, cable operated shutter or time delay, tripod and such. However I have taken nearly 200 exposures and still working on getting all my technical and creative ducks in a row. I have not found it a free lunch - but I am learning heaps and the struggle is doing no harm.

Seems to me the experienced MF users on this forum are doing lots of small things right which are adding up to great results for their images. I have seen many of your images and I feel sure you would not be wasting your money BUT - BUT it does seem to take some time to master the many small intrusions into the creative process that can result in a "promising but unachieved image".

Cheers from Mal
Toowoomba

Well
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Seriously give yourself about a month of shooting and you will get great results. It takes time to get it all down to a workflow and understanding how the system works and functions. Trust me this is normal even for the very experienced shooter. Have some patience and try not to get to frustrated remember this is a normal process you just have to get through. And Mal color me jealous but you made a good choice.The IQ 160 is going to be a awesome back. Like I said earlier you save a good chunk of money from the 180 and obviously you put that to good use with a cambo setup.
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Mal,
curious, what lenses are you using with your DF?
P65+ back very demanding on lenses, technique, and focus is critical.

have you tried your cambo wide with your 35? those results should be outstanding.

If you are not getting the iq you had hoped from your DF, you may have some alignment issue and or bad samples lenses. For the money you sare spending i would be back at your dealerand have it all checked out.

steven
 

woodyspedden

New member
I would sum up my feelings in this way...........Very few sailboat owners (no not the huge ones but ones less than $100K) operate with commercial contracts. They own the boat because they love sailing and it makes them feel "special." Similarly for those who own Porsches! A Prius gets you to the same place at 1/5 the price but getting there is something special in Germany's best.

The point being that trying to justify cost is a hopeless enterprise. I couldn't really afford the S2 system but I now wouldn't want to be without it! I love the results but if truth be known, I love the entire experience of shooting Leica. The quality of the lenses, the build quality of the body etc etc and the ease of shooting makes this a special experience for me. Does that "justify" paying this much money for something from which I earn no income. Sure it does! It is actually the pros who have to look so closely at cost because if one brand over another doesn't create more income for them they have to justify the bucks.

Just my 2 cents worth

Woody
 

etrump

Well-known member
Jim2

I have recently purchased a 645DF with a P65+ back with an automatic upgrade to the IQ160 when they arrive. Why have I chosed this option?

Figured much like you that a MF system would enhance my enjoyment in capturing the finer details of life and ever since I went to Art School, have enjoyed creating larger images. Also I purchased a Cambo Wide DS with a 35mm lens at the same time to use with the P65+ back. Sort of the money I saved by not going to the IQ180 price point just for the camera.

What have I found?
Well at present I am struggling to fully realise the benefit of 60MP over my Canon 5D or 1DMk4. I am happy to use Mirror Up, cable operated shutter or time delay, tripod and such. However I have taken nearly 200 exposures and still working on getting all my technical and creative ducks in a row. I have not found it a free lunch - but I am learning heaps and the struggle is doing no harm.

Seems to me the experienced MF users on this forum are doing lots of small things right which are adding up to great results for their images. I have seen many of your images and I feel sure you would not be wasting your money BUT - BUT it does seem to take some time to master the many small intrusions into the creative process that can result in a "promising but unachieved image".

Cheers from Mal
Toowoomba

Well
Hi Mal, I had a chance to have lunch at Picnic Point during my visit to OZ. The area in and around Toowoomba is beautiful. Hopefully next time it won't rain (hard) the whole time I'm there. :D

I had a difficult time switching from the P45 to P65+ and understand exactly how you feel. When I switched from Canon to P30+ I had immediate improvements in DR, IQ, and resolution (from the first exposure) but the P65+ took a little time.

Enough time that I wondered if I had made a mistake making the upgrade.

The jump to 60MP showed a lot of flaws in both equipment and technique. Glass that worked great with the P45 needed to be calibrated to work at it's best with the P65+. My whole shooting and focusing techniques had to be tweaked as well playing havoc with the creative process. It's difficult to have a creative vision when your head is so consumed by technique.

Hopefully I've learned a little and the IQ180 upgrade will go more smoothly.
 

etrump

Well-known member
My Alpa Max had enough rise to go as far as I felt was correctable in sw for image fall off with the 47 APO-Digitar & P40+. At 25mm there was enough fall off that was corrected by LCC in C1 Pro to have noticable noise. For those extremes I'd consider using a center grad vs software correction even on a Dalsa sensor.

This is an example of full rise/fall & P40+ & 47 (btw, I should have used more rise vs tilting to avoid the keystoning but that's another story ...). The software correction of drop off is visible at the extreme top/bottom with associated noise :
http://grahamwelland.com/MultnomahFallsIce/index.htm
Thanks for the example Graham, sorry I missed the response until now.

I guess I'm not far from that on the Cambo at 20mm with the P65+.
 

malmac

Member
Mal,
curious, what lenses are you using with your DF?
P65+ back very demanding on lenses, technique, and focus is critical.

have you tried your cambo wide with your 35? those results should be outstanding.

If you are not getting the iq you had hoped from your DF, you may have some alignment issue and or bad samples lenses. For the money you sare spending i would be back at your dealerand have it all checked out.

steven
Thanks Steven for your feedback.

I am away for the next two days exploring parts of the Granite Belt, so will have time to test the three lens I have for the 645DF (35mm, 55mmLS and of course the 80mm LS that is standard equipment), also taking the Cambo Wide DS with the 35MM Schneider lens. So hopefully by early next week I may have a set of images to discuss with my dealer and some more valuable experience with the P65+ system.

Have a great week end.


Mal
 

malmac

Member
Hi Mal, I had a chance to have lunch at Picnic Point during my visit to OZ. The area in and around Toowoomba is beautiful. Hopefully next time it won't rain (hard) the whole time I'm there.

I had a difficult time switching from the P45 to P65+ and understand exactly how you feel. When I switched from Canon to P30+ I had immediate improvements in DR, IQ, and resolution (from the first exposure) but the P65+ took a little time.

Enough time that I wondered if I had made a mistake making the upgrade.

The jump to 60MP showed a lot of flaws in both equipment and technique. Glass that worked great with the P45 needed to be calibrated to work at it's best with the P65+. My whole shooting and focusing techniques had to be tweaked as well playing havoc with the creative process. It's difficult to have a creative vision when your head is so consumed by technique.

Hopefully I've learned a little and the IQ180 upgrade will go more smoothly.
Ed


I have seen some of the splendid images you have taken while in Australia. An inspiration to get out on the road in Oz.

Thanks for the words of encouragement - surely part of what forums like this are really good at.

I guess my naivety means I am in a great spot to learn a lot more in the very near future.


Thanks again.


Mal
 
Top