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Thread: Ultimate Landscape kit

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    Ultimate Landscape kit

    The Sinar P3 is good, but heavy for back packing - what about an F3?

    The Hasselblad H4D-60 is good for situations where there is too much movement for multi-shot. (You can use it hand-held too). ...looking forward to the battery pack for the H4D-60,

    Sinar is probably the ultimate (trans)portable system, as it has daylight live view, Multi-shot, electronic eShutters. 86H?

    Remote operation helps for use on a 10m tripod to eliminate unsuitable foregrounds.

    Is the 80Mpx any better?

    ...and Schneider Apo-Digitar or Sinar lenses?

    Is the Hasselblad 50 MS any good?

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    The Sinar P3 is good, but heavy for back packing - what about an F3?

    The Hasselblad H4D-60 is good for situations where there is too much movement for multi-shot. (You can use it hand-held too). ...looking forward to the battery pack for the H4D-60,

    Sinar is probably the ultimate (trans)portable system, as it has daylight live view, Multi-shot, electronic eShutters. 86H?

    Remote operation helps for use on a 10m tripod to eliminate unsuitable foregrounds.

    Is the 80Mpx any better?

    ...and Schneider Apo-Digitar or Sinar lenses?

    Is the Hasselblad 50 MS any good?
    I'm guessing you haven't noticed how many people here are shooting with technical cameras like the RM3d and the ALPA STC.......
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    ... I also see some nice work with Cambo's too.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    ... I also see some nice work with Cambo's too.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I'm guessing you haven't noticed how many people here are shooting with technical cameras like the RM3d and the ALPA STC.......
    I find it difficult to understand why such limiting pieces of kit are so popular...

    I can understand that it would be nice to have a simple light weight camera that is adequate most of the time, but only if you also have a "proper" camera that takes the same set of mounted lenses.

    I think that the Sinar P3 and F3 is about the only option?

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Linhof Techno - small and light enough while offering all the movement you might ever need for landscape shooting and then some, support lenses from 23mm to 240mm and all digital backs around plus some film backs as well. It has a sliding back adapter for perfect stitching too. Or, it's lesser brother the Silvestri Bicam with sliding adapter and Flexibellows kit - slightly heavier, slightly less elegant, slightly less movements, quite a bit less expensive and still perfect for landscape.
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Linhof Techno - small and light enough while offering all the movement you might ever need for landscape shooting and then some, support lenses from 23mm to 240mm and all digital backs around plus some film backs as well. It has a sliding back adapter for perfect stitching too. Or, it's lesser brother the Silvestri Bicam with sliding adapter and Flexibellows kit - slightly heavier, slightly less elegant, slightly less movements, quite a bit less expensive and still perfect for landscape.
    I saw a techno at Paula's Linhoff Studio, but it did not seem a patch on a Sinar.

    I have a Silvestri sliding adapter, and it will not focus, and it drops the digiback.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    I have no experience with Cambo or Alpa. Here is my Techno with Kapture group three way stitching back. I used an ebony SW45 before this. I'm very happy with the rather quick setup, movement and rotating the back quickly. I even tried to use it with a 300mm lens (with extension tube).

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    I saw a techno at Paula's Linhoff Studio, but it did not seem a patch on a Sinar.

    I have a Silvestri sliding adapter, and it will not focus, and it drops the digiback.
    I have a Techno and it's a great camera, incredibly well built and working perfectly and precisely.

    I had a Silvestri before that, I used it for all my USA pictures you can see here on the forum or

    here

    it did focus perfectly and of course didn't drop the digiback sounds to me like user error on both counts...
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    I have no experience with Cambo or Alpa. Here is my Techno with Kapture group three way stitching back. I used an ebony SW45 before this. I'm very happy with the rather quick setup, movement and rotating the back quickly. I even tried to use it with a 300mm lens (with extension tube).
    I thought about getting a Kapture Group sliding back, but they are horrendously expensive, and the Sinar has so much movement you do not need one.

    The infinite extendability of the Sinar is great, especially for Macro. The P3 bellows is short, but I have two P3 to P2 conversion bellows, so I can put a meter or two of P2 in the middle of my P3!

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    I have a Techno and it's a great camera, incredibly well built and working perfectly and precisely.

    I had a Silvestri before that, I used it for all my USA pictures you can see here on the forum or

    here

    it did focus perfectly and of course didn't drop the digiback sounds to me like user error on both counts...
    I am sure that the techno is perfectly adequate, most of the time, for shots for which you hardly need a tech cam.

    I tried the Silvestri sliding back before we got live view... but it was sharp on the ground glass and blurred in the file.

    The attachment catch for the Hasselblad digiback is very badly engineered and made... and I am a qualified and experienced engineer.

    I have been ill for some considerable time - I need my head fixed and I am waiting for a head scan, and I find it no laughing matter being accused of incompetence.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    I am sure that the techno is perfectly adequate, most of the time, for shots for which you hardly need a tech cam.

    I tried the Silvestri sliding back before we got live view... but it was sharp on the ground glass and blurred in the file.

    The attachment catch for the Hasselblad digiback is very badly engineered and made... and I am a qualified and experienced engineer.

    I have been ill for some considerable time - I need my head fixed and I am waiting for a head scan, and I find it no laughing matter being accused of incompetence.
    First of all, let me say that I am very sorry to hear about your health problems and wish you a prompt recovery.

    Back to the matter at hand, to tell you the truth I found your snappy comments to which I first replied not quite conducive to a serene discussion, but I still tried to answer your points through my personal experience; I also find your opening comment in your last reply pretty sarcastic and - again - not conducive to a serene discussion but here I am again trying to answer your points:

    - The Techno is perfectly adequate for taking shots where you need its features: it is not a full-fledged Tech camera nor pretend to be one, obviously doesn't have all the movement of one, but it offers way more than TS lenses could on any camera system out there and satisfies the need of the market for which it has been designed (landscape & architectural are the first coming to mind) - I hope this answers your belittling & sarcastic comment;

    - The Silvestri: I never had a (Phase) back falling, and didn't find the catch poorly engineered, so that's what I can comment on, and did. I never had any problem in focussing with the Silvestri, so I shared my findings on that as well. From the new info you provided, it seems to me possible that there was a problem with your Hassy back adapter causing both focussing distance being off and the back not to be properly fixed to the camera; it is also possible that something went wrong in the production and assembly of the contraption, or while assembling it on the camera, that caused the problems - tolerances are so minimal that any of the above could have been the cause of both your problems.

    - User error is hardly the same as incompetence, especially when talking about complex devices with such fine adjustments & tolerances such as these, and as you can easily see with a search is something that happens frequently in all of the fora and one of the main reasons for the fora's existence itself: helping each other through the sharing of experience and knowledge.
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    The answer to "Ultimate Landscape Kit" is really the $64,000 question. What will ultimately turn out to be your "ultimate kit" will in all likelihood differ from others.

    Some people are content to shoot with a 35mm camera while others prefer medium format then there are the folks that shoot large format. There's simply is no winning answer here. What you'll receive are thoughts of others perspective as they searched for their own "ultimate kit".

    I was very happy shooting landscape with a 35mm camera until I returned from Glacier National Park several years ago and "felt" I could do better with a different system. That feeling was my perspective of what I was able to achieve and felt I was limiting myself; I shortly fell into the abyss of medium format imagery.

    My path has taken me to use a Mamiya AFDII and Kodak back (thanks Ken ) which quickly lead me to a Phase One P30+ (again, thanks Ken ). The back stayed while the bodies changed and an accumulation of glass began. Then I took a trip to Alaska.

    Returning from Alaska I suddenly felt the need for improvement; I was mainly looking at a better capture method for flat stitching. My next step was to acquire a tech camera and back to support it. I sold all my Mamiya gear within 5-months of getting the Cambo WRS/P45+ and haven't looked back.

    I thought my own "pie in the sky ultimate landscape kit" would be the Cambo Ultima coupled with either a IQ180 or 160. The only reason I don't have this is that after trying it I quickly found the overall weight of the beast would be very limiting on how I'd use it. I quickly found that my "ultimate landscape kit" is exactly what I currently have; Cambo WRS/P45+ and a companion Leica M9.

    I really don't believe there's a bad system out there - all you have to do is find the one that's right for you. I still remember an old car commercial where the spokeswoman asked "when you turn your car on does it return the favor?" The same hold true for our camera gear. My answer is hell yes!

    You need to visit a reputable dealer in medium format as that'll give you best chance of answering your own question.

    Good luck!

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Bottom line all that really really counts is lens and sensor. How you get there is meaningless in IQ. Obviously good technique ( focused, movement and such) and processing are keys as well . But really the reality is the frame or body to get there is really just connecting the two dots.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    First of all, let me say that I am very sorry to hear about your health problems and wish you a prompt recovery.
    Thanks - I have a CT head scan booked for next week.
    The Techno is perfectly adequate for taking shots where you need its features: it is not a full-fledged Tech camera nor pretend to be one, obviously doesn't have all the movement of one, but it offers way more than TS lenses could on any camera system out there and satisfies the need of the market for which it has been designed (landscape & architectural are the first coming to mind)
    I chose the topic title, but versatility helps, and "Landscape photography" covers situations where you can get a car to within feet of the camera position to back-packing up a mountain... what I really want is a fully-fledged technical camera for close-to-car photography (and studio/arch etc) and a lightweight system that can use the same set of mounted lenses.
    The Silvestri: I never had a (Phase) back falling, and didn't find the catch poorly engineered, so that's what I can comment on, and did. I never had any problem in focussing with the Silvestri, so I shared my findings on that as well. From the new info you provided, it seems to me possible that there was a problem with your Hassy back adapter causing both focussing distance being off and the back not to be properly fixed to the camera; it is also possible that something went wrong in the production and assembly of the contraption, or while assembling it on the camera, that caused the problems - tolerances are so minimal that any of the above could have been the cause of both your problems.
    I think, as you say, it might be all to do with the Hassy adapter. Sinar do not use adapters - you buy another whole sliding back for another type of back!
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line all that really really counts is lens and sensor. How you get there is meaningless in IQ. Obviously good technique ( focused, movement and such) and processing are keys as well . But really the reality is the frame or body to get there is really just connecting the two dots.
    Yes, Guy, but if you have not got the movements (or the extension, etc.) you need for a shot you have to compromise... but the 2kg camera you have with you takes a better picture than the 7kg camera you left behind!

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Does anybody make adapter boards - so that you can use the lightweight camera of your choice and then mount the lensboards in e.g. a standard 5*4 lensboard on an all-bells-and-whistles studio technical camera?

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    ...

    what I really want is a fully-fledged technical camera for close-to-car photography (and studio/arch etc) and a lightweight system that can use the same set of mounted lenses.

    ...
    Well, I am afraid there isn't one single camera that cover all that including weight concerns; you might need to get two camera bodies part of the same system - to be used with the same set of lenses, same sliding adapter, back etc. A Techno (if you stay in the Linhof camp) for your portable need, a 679 for the studio ones or close-to-car ones. In the Silvestri camp, a Bicam and a S5 - other brands, I am not as familiar with so I'd rather not get into model-specific suggestions...
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I thought my own "pie in the sky ultimate landscape kit" would be the Cambo Ultima coupled with either a IQ180 or 160. The only reason I don't have this is that after trying it I quickly found the overall weight of the beast would be very limiting on how I'd use it. I quickly found that my "ultimate landscape kit" is exactly what I currently have; Cambo WRS/P45+ and a companion Leica M9.
    Hi Don
    Nice post - My ultimate landscape kit is the same as yours . . . . without the Cambo - I just use an M9, I stitch if I need to, and I don't use a tripod. Of course there are IQ compromises, but people seem to like the images, and I like the simplicity.

    all the best

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    what I really want is a fully-fledged technical camera for close-to-car photography (and studio/arch etc) and a lightweight system that can use the same set of mounted lenses.
    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Well, I am afraid there isn't one single camera that cover all that including weight concerns; you might need to get two camera bodies part of the same system - to be used with the same set of lenses, same sliding adapter, back etc. A Techno (if you stay in the Linhof camp) for your portable need, a 679 for the studio ones or close-to-car ones. In the Silvestri camp, a Bicam and a S5 - other brands, I am not as familiar with so I'd rather not get into model-specific suggestions...
    Yes, thanks ...that is the type of system I had in mind...

    Would a Sinar P3/P2/F3 system not achieve this?

    The F3 is a lightweight camera with a full range of movements (but without the weight of the fully-geared movements) ... but I think it is not compatible with quite all of the P3 bits?

    For remote use on my 10m tripod, the Sinar daylight live view with the LCD shutter, without ND filters would be very useful... does any other MF system give good daylight live view?

    My Manfrotto Agnoscope 10m tripod comes with a CCTV system for viewing the focusing screen of a V sys Hasselblad!
    Last edited by dick; 4th May 2011 at 22:39.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    I agree with Don. The best camera setup I have ever used for landscape is a technical camera (I use a CAMBO RS system) with a digital back. It is light, modular and very easy to use. Additionally, the shift/lift and stitching capabilities surpass anything I have used before. A 9 panel stitch with a P45+ produces usable detail that is sharp at 200%-300% crop.

    The lens (Rodenstock and Schneider) are at a totally different level compared to Hasselblad, Leica (comes close), Nikon or Canon lens I have used. Throw on a 40, 50 or 60mp digital back and you can produce images that are not even imaginable with the very best 35mm or medium format camera.

    Just my thoughts...

    Have fun

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    "The Ultimate Landscape Kit?"

    Paint.

    Cameras don't even come close.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Some would say an 8x10 film camera still rules that roost.

    If you want to go digital, an 80 megapixel back, some Rodenstock and Schneider lenses, and the view camera body of your choice would be the best available solution.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    If you want to go digital, an 80 megapixel back, some Rodenstock and Schneider lenses, and the view camera body of your choice would be the best available solution.
    Theoretical yes, but with digital requiring much stricter positioning of sensor than film (read 10x), it requires micro drive adjustments and a possible more tedious adjustment for each shot. The issue is also to see the adjustments well since a 645 sensor is much smaller than film size... Can be possible, but a tech camera such as Alpa, Arca or Cambo will enable lens perfect parallel to sensor plane (if camera is adjusted) and accurate adjustment of focus using a helical, assuming system is shimmed (or fudge factors such as Alpa). An Alpa can be shimmed to 0.01mm accuracy, it seems merely difficult to place the plane of focus to same preciseness with a viewcamera.

    The ultimate is perhaps in future... a 100MP digital back for insert into 4x5 frame of a viewcamera???

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    The ultimate kit is when you get the shot out of any gear you use, i still feel happy to look at my best Scotland shots taken by 5D/1D2n, and feel more happy to see my NZ shots taken by 1Ds3, i will be happy to have shots taken by any of my Canon DSLR or MF, i am worry if i bought 100mp with tech camera now then i will think to get something else more or better, this will lead me to endless story.
    Tareq

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    ... but a tech camera such as Alpa, Arca or Cambo will enable lens perfect parallel to sensor plane (if camera is adjusted) and accurate adjustment of focus using a helical, assuming system is shimmed (or fudge factors such as Alpa). An Alpa can be shimmed to 0.01mm accuracy, it seems merely difficult to place the plane of focus to same preciseness with a viewcamera.
    Are you sure that you mean Alpa regarding 'fudge factors'? I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as such myself but I think you meant Arca here - i.e. independent lens adjustment offsets. With the Alpa you basically adjust to the back via shims which is anything but a 'fudge factor'.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Arca RM3D simply because it has built in tilts. The new breed of MF tech cameras from Arca, Alpa, Cambo, Horesman, Linhof and Sinar (I left Silvestri off on purpose) are significantly more precise than ANY view cam platform, and I include Arca's own F-line and Sinar's P lines. Moreover, they are a lot lighter, more compact and easier to use with an MF back.

    So for me, the "ideal" kit would be an Arca RM3D, IQ180 (100% review for focus confirm at time of capture) and for lenses I'd start with a Schneider 43, 72 and 120. And I would not argue against another person's choice of Alpa cam and Rodenstock lenses at all...
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Sandy and were talking about the "ultimate landscape kit" over breakfast this morning and her idea (and I kinda like it too) is "good hiking boots, plenty of water, and someone to carry all the gear". I ask if I could pick my own intern and she told me no....
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    my choice:

    cambo wrs: has two shift axes
    schneider 43, rode 70, schneider 120, all with T/S bases
    currently with the H39 back

    most of what i have been doing is focused from 30' to inf, but i also want the ability to do table top and flat art repro, the occasional portrait, etc

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    The ultimate kit is when you get the shot out of any gear you use
    Exactly!

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    The ultimate kit is when you get the shot out of any gear you use,
    The ultimate kit is light and quick to set up and allows you to get "any" shot without compromise... this, to my mind, means getting it right in camera, and not having to crop off a third of the pixels you paid for, or distorting in post.

    No such kit exists, and I may have to compromise by using a 4 * 5 or larger film lenses when I need more movement than can be accommodated by my Apo-digitars, but at least I have the camera and lenses for when I need a half or third meter image circle!

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Theoretical yes, but with digital requiring much stricter positioning of sensor than film...
    Not an issue any more with 'live view'

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    Not an issue any more with 'live view'
    Hi Graham,

    Tolerances (sensor location, lens movements) for digital remain as big issue to adjust for digital with live view as without live view, simply since the sensor will more or less need be adjusted to within 0.02mm tolerance for optimum sharpness. That is a number I was told by Schneider as a tolerance to depth of focus for digitar lenses. In comparison film flatness seems to be referred to within 0.2mm tolerance, thus 10x more accuracy required.

    What live view on a back can help with is to see "what you see is what you get", but I will assume that at the high resolution of 60-80MP sensors it can benefit to use teathered for the larger display thus to see even better. It will however be interesting to hear how well the focus mask on new IQ backs will work in practice in regards to tolerances for adjustment of lens movements. Nevertheless it will require fine adjustments using micro adjustments, e.g Linhof, Arca. The Linhof Techno seem interesting for that use.

    Regards
    Anders

  33. #33
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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Hi Graham,

    Tolerances (sensor location, lens movements) for digital remain as big issue to adjust for digital with live view as without live view, simply since the sensor will more or less need be adjusted to within 0.02mm tolerance for optimum sharpness. That is a number I was told by Schneider as a tolerance to depth of focus for digitar lenses. In comparison film flatness seems to be referred to within 0.2mm tolerance, thus 10x more accuracy required.

    What live view on a back can help with is to see "what you see is what you get", but I will assume that at the high resolution of 60-80MP sensors it can benefit to use teathered for the larger display thus to see even better. It will however be interesting to hear how well the focus mask on new IQ backs will work in practice in regards to tolerances for adjustment of lens movements. Nevertheless it will require fine adjustments using micro adjustments, e.g Linhof, Arca. The Linhof Techno seem interesting for that use.

    Regards
    Anders
    Not sure I understand your point. If "what you see is what you get" and what you see in live view is the focus you want, then you're already there.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Hi Graham,

    Tolerances (sensor location, lens movements) for digital remain as big issue to adjust for digital with live view as without live view, simply since the sensor will more or less need be adjusted to within 0.02mm tolerance for optimum sharpness.
    Anders
    I think that the focus tolerances are only that tight for short lenses - this would be an argument for using a specialist WA camera for short lenses.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Tolerances (sensor location, lens movements) for digital remain as big issue to adjust for digital with live view as without live view, simply since the sensor will more or less need be adjusted to within 0.02mm tolerance for optimum sharpness. That is a number I was told by Schneider as a tolerance to depth of focus for digitar lenses. In comparison film flatness seems to be referred to within 0.2mm tolerance, thus 10x more accuracy required.
    While I'm sure the info you got fro SK is very accurate I'd take the advise with a pinch of salt. Remember, what we photographers consider to be acceptably sharp and what a lens design/engineer considers sharp are probably also within a tolerance of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    Not sure I understand your point. If "what you see is what you get" and what you see in live view is the focus you want, then you're already there.
    I don't think live view on a tech camera will be as accurate as people think, especially if were talking fractions of millimetres as Anders above. The live view back just takes the place of the GG and a perfectly calibrated GG can still be slightly out. The problem lies with the fact that LF lenses are usually f5.6 or f4 at best and at those apertures, depth of field starts to effect the point of critical focus. You would still need to check the focus in the captured image either tethered or on an Phase IQ screen to be 100% accurate.

    But like I said above, lens designer critical focus and us photographers acceptable focus are probably two different things.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    Not sure I understand your point. If "what you see is what you get" and what you see in live view is the focus you want, then you're already there.
    The point is two-fold:
    1) With live view we need to be able to critically determine when we have adjusted lens movements and focus for OPTIMUM accurate focus plane or not
    a. small display on back makes more difficult to view focus
    b. focus mask (we have no info on the focus precision that IQ backs will provide).
    2) Suffice accurate micro adjustment mechanisms on camera are still necessary, thus a viewcamera without such will be difficult and not well suited, or tedious at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    I think that the focus tolerances are only that tight for short lenses - this would be an argument for using a specialist WA camera for short lenses.
    The focus travel will be smaller for wide lenses yes. I gather that this may be why my own design and custom made sliding adapter works for lenses 72mm and longer on a 28MP back. Another reason can also be that on a groundglass subjects tend to be small for focusing with shorter lenses. My adapter is for sale here if someone is interested ... http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23733
    It features a very large Maxwell groundglass and is made to higher quality than the cheap Chinese made adapters on Ebay.
    I find focusing with it on my wooden Shen Hao TFC45-IIB to be no issue but find that the lens movments are a bit tedious since camera do not have micro adjustments. On a camera with more precision it should work better of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    While I'm sure the info you got fro SK is very accurate I'd take the advise with a pinch of salt. Remember, what we photographers consider to be acceptably sharp and what a lens design/engineer considers sharp are probably also within a tolerance of its own.
    Well, when there is a factor of 10x in film/sensor flatness of difference between digital and film it seems they have a very valid point. + why does Alpa provide shims to thickness of 0.01mm? That makes perhaps the question reduced to what we prefer, absolute optimum sharpness or lens movements?

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    + why does Alpa provide shims to thickness of 0.01mm? That makes perhaps the question reduced to what we prefer, absolute optimum sharpness or lens movements?
    But AFAIK the shims are to get your lens and back calibrated to some reference point (infinity) and nothing to do with focus. I very much doubt you could focus an Apla helical mount lens to an accuracy of 0.02mm. The only camera possibly able to focus to that accuracy would be one of the Arca R cameras.

    Just think your being a little too technical about this and reading too much into the Apla marketing machine.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    But AFAIK the shims are to get your lens and back calibrated to some reference point (infinity) and nothing to do with focus. I very much doubt you could focus an Apla helical mount lens to an accuracy of 0.02mm. The only camera possibly able to focus to that accuracy would be one of the Arca R cameras.

    Just think your being a little too technical about this and reading too much into the Apla marketing machine.
    Very true! Why, though, would you need to focus any more accurately than 0.02mm? All of the Tech lenses are meant to be shot at f8 or f11 which induces enough dof to compensate for any slight mis-focus at that level....

    Victor

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    But AFAIK the shims are to get your lens and back calibrated to some reference point (infinity) and nothing to do with focus. I very much doubt you could focus an Apla helical mount lens to an accuracy of 0.02mm. The only camera possibly able to focus to that accuracy would be one of the Arca R cameras.

    Just think your being a little too technical about this and reading too much into the Apla marketing machine.
    The bottom line is that there is error in any system, even one as well-marketed as Alpa's. Although I am sure Alpa (rightly or wrongly) will argue that their system has the LEAST error of it's competitors.

    Alpa's own website acknowledges that their lenses have a tolerance of +/-0.02mm. In an old post I argued that we should perhaps accept as inevitable an "averaging" of error across system components (assuming that they are all within tolerance and not defective). If you take Alpa as an example, you could foreseeably optimise a DB with shims for a lens that is +0.02mm (within tolerance). But if you own a second lens that is -0.02mm (also within tolerance), then your DB will be out by 0.04mm when used with this second lens. Consider that Alpa argues that +/-0.01mm is sufficient to make a visible difference.

    For the record, I think Alpa, Cambo, Arca, Sinar, Linhof et al all make beautiful gear but we should accept any marketing with a healthy dose of scepticism. The aura built-up around Alpa reminds me a lot of Leica. In fact, their marketing strategies almost mirror each other:
    1. Positioning as a luxury brand (not product) to professionals and non-professionals alike.
    2. Disparage your competitors and anyone who chooses to use their "lesser" products.
    3. State loudly the brand's (not product's) technical excellence.
    4. Repeat.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Is the C1 focus mask flawless? Surely its a great help, but shouldn't someone check "how good is it?" - and what level of precision it has - on a camera and back.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Is the C1 focus mask flawless? Surely its a great help, but shouldn't someone check "how good is it?" - and what level of precision it has - on a camera and back.
    The focus mask is hardly flawless. It is optimized for studio work and not landscape work. My experience has been that the mask is indicating in focus for areas of an image that are clearly way out of focus. Subject matter is important for successful use of the focus mask.

    Victor

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    The focus mask is hardly flawless. It is optimized for studio work and not landscape work. My experience has been that the mask is indicating in focus for areas of an image that are clearly way out of focus. Subject matter is important for successful use of the focus mask.

    Victor

    I agree completely. Focus mask, at least as implemented in C1 6, is just not all that useful with landscape images in my experience. If it works the same way with the IQ backs, I sure don't think it will be the holy grail for those that use IQ backs with a tech camera. They will still have to contend with serious focus issues, particularly with non-wide angle lenses.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I agree completely. Focus mask, at least as implemented in C1 6, is just not all that useful with landscape images in my experience. If it works the same way with the IQ backs, I sure don't think it will be the holy grail for those that use IQ backs with a tech camera. They will still have to contend with serious focus issues, particularly with non-wide angle lenses.
    I, actually, had never intended to use the focus mask..... especially knowing its limitations. The REAL advantage of the IQ backs is the hi res LCD and the ability to easily check focus with a MF loupe. Granted its not as fast as live view but in actually not that much longer. On a tech camera or even manually focusing a DF it should be easy to nail focus with a quick three shots or less. That benefit alone was worth the purchase of an IQ180.

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    Re: Ultimate Landscape kit

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    But AFAIK the shims are to get your lens and back calibrated to some reference point (infinity) and nothing to do with focus. I very much doubt you could focus an Apla helical mount lens to an accuracy of 0.02mm. The only camera possibly able to focus to that accuracy would be one of the Arca R cameras.

    Just think your being a little too technical about this and reading too much into the Apla marketing machine.
    Not to repeat, see my post #3 http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26427

    As for reading into Alpa marketing machine... nope and I agree with

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    For the record, I think Alpa, Cambo, Arca, Sinar, Linhof et al all make beautiful gear but we should accept any marketing with a healthy dose of scepticism. The aura built-up around Alpa reminds me a lot of Leica. In fact, their marketing strategies almost mirror each other:
    1. Positioning as a luxury brand (not product) to professionals and non-professionals alike.
    2. Disparage your competitors and anyone who chooses to use their "lesser" products.
    3. State loudly the brand's (not product's) technical excellence.
    4. Repeat.
    and I can add more about their arrogance in marketing and overpricing by China agent!

    However, same as Leica, even if marketed part as luxury goods, remarkably they are top quality and useful TOOLS. Because I recognize the need for the very precise tolerances is what made me interested in Alpa. Still awaiting for pricing to be sorted out for Hong Kong per say... and their reply to my strong email on matter.

    Regards
    Anders

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