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Torn between Pentax 645d and IQ + RM3di

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
"I need to go buy something stupid now?"

Living where you do, I'd recommend a boat.
That would be really stupid but hate to say this there are a lot of boats here. Weird

IQ 180 would do one or two things . Get dead really quick from my lovely wife :deadhorse: or fast move to a apartment :cry:. Not that appealing. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
On a serious note i am still torn between a used P65+ or IQ 140 lateral. Now that is a legal purchase as it has gone through the clearing house with sort of a approval ( Grunt sound). Buy now get beat up later is a okay deal. That one I can live with. LOL
 

David K

Workshop Member
Taking the initial cost out of the equation.... I'm still torn between these two. I like the idea that Pentax 645d is weather sealed and in my mind I'll have more 'freedom' and 'carefree' experience with it, firstly I would not care as much about trashing a 10K camera vs a 40K back, secondly it's designed as weather sealed so I'll have more confidence in using it in harsh environment without worrying about dust / water vapour getting on to the sensor / lens, etc.

On the other hand, I think Phase + rm3di will give me a more 'compact' kit, although I'm not sure about the weight which is also of prime importance.

Last but not least, there's the resolution - 80mp vs 40 - not sure how important that would be.
If you're really taking the initial cost out of the equation why wouldn't the choice be between the Leica S2 and the Phase/rm3di?
 

kuau

Workshop Member
im with guy on this whole tech view vs dslr mf debate.
i agree with him in regards to shooting longer glass for landscape, my set of pentax lenses range from 35mm to 300mm and my experience like guys is very similar, my best shots are always from my longer lenses. i wish i was a better wa landscape shooter but im not, and i know thats where tech view plus large format lenses shine, 28mm, 35mm, 47mm, 72mm all great large format wa lenses. if ihad the money, i really like the linhof techno, i know you can use up to 150mm ona rm3di, yet for me thats not long enough,
but on the techno, or arca swiss d2 you can use almost any lf lenses out there, yet focusing the longer lenses on a ground glass can be a bitch and very timely.

lastly, if you like to go on photo workshops, tech view is to slow for many other people so that can become an issue. you end up missing the shot.

if you are a real purist ls shooter and go out on your own, tech view is vey compelling.

steven
 

MP7

New member
I am in the category of gearaholic and so the RM3D and a digital back is more interesting and keeping the state of satisfaction much longer than the Pentax 645D. One of the many reasons for the longer term growth of learning with a digital back + tech camera and a medium format SLR camera is the versatility of the system. Another example for me is the diversity of different optics one can use with the digital back. I am willing to taylor my own rain/wind coat for the few occasions I am faced with the environment. I wish I was in the situation where I spent my time chasing the light all day and run into challenging factors but I am not and like most folks.

On another note I live next to movies stars and here in the City of Angel there are substance clinics for artists to treat their addiction but there is no gearaholic clinic available currently. This forum only offers workshop and preview gears at location but does not offer clinical treatment in many infected cases. I feel under the current regime of this forum induction is not offset with treatment and thus thread like this may occur at high rate. If a clinic is setup here I would like to be the first to enroll joining all my old pals who helped me to this stage. Perhaps with the proper treatment I and other will no longer be torned by choices of gears and owning duplication and in some cases quadruple copies. Thank you for your kind consideration.
 
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David Schneider

New member
I had waited for 5 years for the Pentax 645D, and my lenses were waiting as well. In the meantime, I used film with my 645NII. I also acquired a Hasselblad 501cm and 4 lenses, just to give the square format a try (and I love it). After a recent trip to the southwest, I was scanning film taken with both cameras (or more precisely, both sets of lenses). That was an eye-opening experience. The Zeiss lenses ran circles around those from Pentax. At that moment, I gave up any notion of purchasing the 645D; I felt the current lenses could not deliver like lenses from other manufacturers, and there would be no used lenses of the "new" variety for quite some time. I was also troubled by the less than stellar reviews of the new Pentax 55mm, and the 25mm carries a $5k price tag. If I were to get a Pentax 645D, I'd seriously consider a lens adapter that would enable the use of non-Pentax glass (although that would be much less convenient in actual usage). In the end, I opted for a different system with the lenses made for that particular camera, and the software (emphasized by Guy) that came with the camera (something I didn't fully appreciate at the time of my purchase).
When I decided to go down the MF road, I loved so much about the concept and development of the 645D. But I couldn't see committing to a system that had one lens and one on the way and expected you to buy old used lenses in the mean time. Got a very nice used Hasselblad h3d2-39 and four lenses because that made sense to me and my business. The Pentax just did not.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
My often repeated mantra. Buy a system not a camera. My issues with both the S2 and Pentax although the S2 has gotten better in the system. But this comes from a Pro view as well. I do NOT want to be waiting for the OEM to come out with a lens I need. I also want software dedicated to my sensor. These systems are not setup up like that and i am picky as hell about my files. But that is me and my needs and I totally get why the S2 and 645 are very appealing to the hobbyists crowd.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Alas, I see my mistake. I accumulated a bunch of Pentax 645 glass and a 645NII thinking that a 645D would be the only affordable way into MFDigital. I have no optical issues at all with any of these lenses, but have only used them on film.

Two weeks ago I inherited a 500C/M, so now there is MF Zeiss glass in my life, and the possibility of CFV backs... but limited wide angle, no AF for the longer lenses, and anyway, cropping that beautiful 6x6 view seems sad.

I suppose there's a reason these two systems are (relatively) affordable.

:banghead:,

Matt

BTW, I *do* know what pictures I want to take - WA Landscape/Architecture (Zeiss 21, Leica 28 are my most used lenses on 35mm format) with some 100-200mm landscape details and portraits. I still go for the Canon for the portraits due to the AF (love that 70-200/2.8), and use an M9 for anything wider. It would be sensible to just stop there and be happy, but noooooo... :loco:
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Guy is right as usual again,

Software designed around sensor, is the best way to go and only Phase / Leaf offer this via Capture One and there MF backs, yet at a price.

Again not being a professional photographer, the price of a new Phase DF body and a P40+ or Leaf Aptus 8 was well over 17K, at least 70% more then the 645D, yep, you get what you pay for, and working on DNG files from my 645D in LR3, the default color is not very good, always have to make adjustments.

Bottom line, you have to have a very good handle on your PP skills or you might as well shoot a p&s camera in jpeg mode.

David, your point is well taken, used H3D2-39 and 4 HCD lens is a great setup, again at a price though.

I would be interested to see how many GETDPI members are actual professional photographers, meaning this is there primary source of income as opposed to others like myself who love photography, but don't make there living from it.
For me, it's all about having fun, and whether its with a MF 645D, Phase One DF, Arca Swiss RM3di, Alpa, etc, or even a FF 35mm camera Nikon, Canon, Sony, Leica..
Just go out and have fun and if you are lucky you may get a great image that you can say "I took that"

Steven
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Matt,
No question about it, 98% of all the Pentax lenses were made for film, and not digital, besides there new 55mm and 25mm lenses everything was for film, and the 645D quickly shows any defects on there lenses.

From my own experience, having tried a 503CW and a CFV39 back with zeiss glass, basically the same problem as Pentax 645D, yes zeiss glass is better, but... yet again all the glass was designed for film, and the CFV39 back hanging off a 503CW body, you quickly see flaws in some of the zeiss glass, especially there WA lenses, like the 45mm CFE and 55mm CFI lens, not the greatest performers when matched with a CFV39 back.

Steven

Alas, I see my mistake. I accumulated a bunch of Pentax 645 glass and a 645NII thinking that a 645D would be the only affordable way into MFDigital. I have no optical issues at all with any of these lenses, but have only used them on film.

Two weeks ago I inherited a 500C/M, so now there is MF Zeiss glass in my life, and the possibility of CFV backs... but limited wide angle, no AF for the longer lenses, and anyway, cropping that beautiful 6x6 view seems sad.

I suppose there's a reason these two systems are (relatively) affordable.

:banghead:,

Matt

BTW, I *do* know what pictures I want to take - WA Landscape/Architecture (Zeiss 21, Leica 28 are my most used lenses on 35mm format) with some 100-200mm landscape details and portraits. I still go for the Canon for the portraits due to the AF (love that 70-200/2.8), and use an M9 for anything wider. It would be sensible to just stop there and be happy, but noooooo... :loco:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Alas, I see my mistake. I accumulated a bunch of Pentax 645 glass and a 645NII thinking that a 645D would be the only affordable way into MFDigital. I have no optical issues at all with any of these lenses, but have only used them on film.

Two weeks ago I inherited a 500C/M, so now there is MF Zeiss glass in my life, and the possibility of CFV backs... but limited wide angle, no AF for the longer lenses, and anyway, cropping that beautiful 6x6 view seems sad.

I suppose there's a reason these two systems are (relatively) affordable.

:banghead:,

Matt

BTW, I *do* know what pictures I want to take - WA Landscape/Architecture (Zeiss 21, Leica 28 are my most used lenses on 35mm format) with some 100-200mm landscape details and portraits. I still go for the Canon for the portraits due to the AF (love that 70-200/2.8), and use an M9 for anything wider. It would be sensible to just stop there and be happy, but noooooo... :loco:
This a load of do-do IMHO. Relax and enjoy what you have. Not long ago I had a 503CW/CFV and Zeiss optics, and bunch of other guys here also use that set-up. While not all the Zeiss optics were stellar, most of them can bark with the big dogs. What they may lack in sterile Japanese edge sharpness they more than make up for with incredible color, microcontrast and over-all character. If you get a Zeiss 50, get the FLE version. The 65 and 100 are legendary, and the 180 and 250SA are hard to beat.

If you get a CFV, them the images can be processed in Phocus software and the DAC lens corrections can applied to most every Zeiss V lens ever made.

Can't speak to the Pentax ... never used one.

BTW, a whole lot of really good photographers exclusively use Lightroom which gets better more versatile and faster with every new release ... which they just did again with v3.4.

Shoot pictures. Have fun. :)

-Marc
 

kuau

Workshop Member
marc,
everything you mentioned is true, and i totally forgot about phocus software, duh.
personallyi did not get to try the 50mm fle, correct me if i am wrong but that lens only works on the 200 series blads, no shutter in it,
on the 500 series, i think 60mm and above are all good edge to edge using the cfv39 back., if you are a landscape shooter i feel this is important, portraits, fashion, etc not nearly as important.

steven
 

D&A

Well-known member
I agree with Marc. It wouldn't be prudent to lump all previous MF lenses manufactured during the film era as sub par when used with a digital sensor. It was and continues to be a mostly case by case basis when evaluating pre-existing 35mm lenses when they are used on 35mm DSLR's. This continues to be continual process as the sensors and cameras change along the way, in regards to the demands they put on optics. Along with this is better and more sophisticated software that in many ways has become exceptional in handling older glass and some of the anomalies they might exhibit.

As I posted in a few previous posts in this thread, the Pentax FA 645 autofocus lenses have very good potential to perform exceptionally well with the Pentax 645D, so the system is not completely dependent on just newly released lenses. In fact the new 55mm f2.8 released alongside the 645D, is a lens that I would rate in the middle of the pack....with many previously released FA 645 lenses easily equaling or exceeding it in performance. It's not all rosy with all previous FA lenses, but many are turning out to be very very good and good buys too! So as was the case in 35mm DSLR's, a digital specific lenses doesn't always translate to better, and if it does, it may be many times more expensive with not a lot in return compared to previously released lenses.The more samples of a given lens I've had the opportunity to test, the more I am convinced that a good system can be put together incorporating the 645D, that ultimately will satisfy a large number of discriminating users. That's not to say there aren't better lenses/platforms out there....there most certainly are! As its said so often...it's all comes down to needs, budget and expectations.

Dave (D&A)
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Do-do. Do-do?

What did I say about the Hassy that isn't true? It's a fabulous camera. I love using it as a 6x6. I'd hate to crop it. The 50 FLE and 100 CF arrived in the mail today (I did my homework) and I'm scanning my first roll as we speak. It's a blast.

Shooting pictures. Having fun. :salute:

Matt
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
marc,
everything you mentioned is true, and i totally forgot about phocus software, duh.
personallyi did not get to try the 50mm fle, correct me if i am wrong but that lens only works on the 200 series blads, no shutter in it,
on the 500 series, i think 60mm and above are all good edge to edge using the cfv39 back., if you are a landscape shooter i feel this is important, portraits, fashion, etc not nearly as important.

steven
No, that is incorrect Kuau. ;) The 50/4 CFi FLE is the improved version of the older non FLE 50mm for the 500 series V cameras.

FLE means Floating Lens Element which the user manually sets based on distance to subject. It specifically optimized optical performance at various distances, but in particular improved closer focus.
The Zeiss 50mm 200 series lens was a non-FLE with a f/2.8 maximum aperture as opposed to f/4 of the 500 series ... which was possible because there is no central shutter in the lens.

The latest version of the 40mm is the Zeiss 40CFE IF, which significantly improved corner to corner, edge to edge performance over the previous 40mm but at the expense of some additional distortion ... which Phocus automatically corrects with a mouse click ... software easily fixes this type of issue compared to edge sharpness issues which it can't fix. I would consider the 40IF a digital inspired lens since it was developed well after digital had become dominate.

The lens designation C, CF, CFi CFE meanings are: "C" Central Shutter, "F" Focal Plane (meaning there is an F setting on the 500 series V lens that disables the central shutter so the lens can be used on the 200 series Focal Plane cameras) The "i" of CFi lenses means "improved" (newer locking sync port, better reflection suppression inside the lens, improved internal springs, and better hood mount coating, etc.) The E of CFE stands for Electronic data bus contacts which allowed for automatic meter indexing when used on a 200 series camera that has a built-in meter, and also indexes itself when a CFE Zeiss lens is used on an H camera via the CF adapter.

If one is using a CFV/16 back on a V camera, the crop factor is 1.5X, so some of the older lenses are less of an issue compared to using the CFV/39 or 50. If using the CFV 39/50, I strongly suggest the 40IF and 50CFi FLE for optimized optical wide angle performance.

-Marc

P.S. if one doesn't already exist, my bet is that someone will offer a V to Pentax 645 adapter which will allow use of the Zeiss lenses on the Pentax 645D, which is possible because it is a focal plane camera.
 

kuau

Workshop Member
marc,
thanks for the clarification.
when i had a had a 503cw and cfv39 back on loan from hasselblad, i had the older 40mm cfe, 120mm and 150mm lens which both worked very well.
i could not get my hands on the IF version ofthe 40mm, this as you know is a very expensive piece of glass around $8k, and i was told by hasselblad support that yes it was improved yet when coupled with the cfv39 back still some softness in the corners..

i then had hasselblad do a test for me with the newer 50mm cfi cfe lens ona 503cw 39 back f11 and f16 tripod mlu shot at infinty, they sent me the 3fr files to open up in phocus, and still edge performance was sub par, yes, color, micro contrast excellent in 2/3 rds of the frame but thats it.

so that was my experience with the 503/cfv39 combo. although i loved the setup, totally retro and all mechanical, for wa landscape work, not a good performer based on my tests.

my older h3d39 with hcd lens provided superior results from the hcd 28 and hcd 50.

im going in september to iceland on a hasselblad work shop, i will be shooting there h4d, 40 and 50mp cameras alongwith complete set of hcd lenses. cant wait for the trip

steven
 

Hauxon

Member
Seems like many here assume Pentax glass is of much lower quality than rest of the MF lenses. I know Lloyd Chambers (diglloyd.com) was not too impressed with some of the lenses but are there any more tests confirming his findings?
 
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