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Thread: Phase 60mpx MF back

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    LJ, keep think along those lines -- I suspect you are about to get your wish. And Hassleblad may have to re-do it's "Full Frame" marketing thingy
    Jeeze-o-peezo, what's with the piss on Hasselblad at every oportunity?

    EVERYONE calles it full frame ... including Kodak and Sinar... and, yes, Phase One also Jack

    P.S., note on the Kodak list that there is no 22 meg CCD sensor listed any more ... just as I predicted! Bye, Bye 22 meg for Hasselbald and Phase One ... at least from Kodak.
    Last edited by fotografz; 30th July 2008 at 05:15.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jeeze-o-peezo, what's with the piss on Hasselblad at every oportunity?

    EVERYONE calles it full frame ... including Kodak and Sinar... and, yes, Phase One also Jack
    Hasselblad deserves everything they get for that marketing turd.

    Btw, you are getting confused between two different meanings of 'full frame'.

    The main meaning in this forum, and the way in which Hasselblad meant it, relates to a sensor which covers the whole area of a given format, whether that be 35mm or 645 etc.

    When discussing CCD architecture, 'full frame' has another meaning. The 3 most common architecture types are: full-frame, frame-transfer and interline. This bears no relation on the overall size of the sensor.

    Only Hasselblad has ever (wrongly) described a 48x36mm sensor as full frame 645.

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    From wikipedia:

    "Architecture

    The CCD image sensors can be implemented in several different architectures. The most common are full-frame, frame-transfer and interline. The distinguishing characteristic of each of these architectures is their approach to the problem of shuttering.
    In a full-frame device, all of the image area is active and there is no electronic shutter. A mechanical shutter must be added to this type of sensor or the image will smear as the device is clocked or read out."


    It's pretty clear that most photo imaging products we are familiar with use
    'full-frame' ccd architecture.


    I guess what got peoples goat,initially, was that Hassleblad chose to play up
    the 'full frame' aspect of their H3D series cameras when,in fact, the sensors were
    not geometrically full frame with respect to the 6 x 4.5 camera format.

    Why,two years later,this is still a bone of contention for many is beyond me.
    Hasselblad took their lumps and sold a sh*tload of product.

    Mark

  4. #54
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    Why,two years later,this is still a bone of contention for many is beyond me.
    Hasselblad took their lumps and sold a sh*tload of product.
    What are you saying? Dishonesty is ok if it makes a profit?

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    All these MFD back manufacturers are relatively tiny cottage industry players - competing in a relatively tiny market. So weak are their balance sheets that they outsource pretty much everything in the manufacturing value added curve. That is to say they already run lean and mean. Therefore mergers would deliver not much in marginal utilities from synergies and the wrong mergers may actually backfire.
    Doubt I'd call Jenoptik a tiny anything... it's a very substantial company.

  6. #56
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    I guess the question that needs be asked is did Hassy really play something up or not. Advertising their 48x36mm sensors as "full-frame" was not incorrect with respect to the architecture now was it? With respect to what many wanted to believe and interpret for 645 size, was that Hasselblad's doing or photographers mis-applying the marketing to their wants and wishes? Seems like a lot of the latter, but Hassy sure did not go out of their way to clear anything up. Interestingly, if you look over the Hasselblad site now, there is no mention of "full-frame" when they talk about their sensors now. They still talk about them being twice the size of a 35mm frame, which they are.

    I have to wonder if the entire "full-frame" marketing was used to contrast with scanning backs or something?

    LJ

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    From wikipedia:
    Why,two years later,this is still a bone of contention for many is beyond me.
    Hasselblad took their lumps and sold a sh*tload of product.
    Mark
    Not a bone for me Mark but it certainly is for a lot of folks. Frankly, I expect a bit of marketing puffery from anyone selling anything. Many feel they stepped over the line with this one. Funny thing is that I doubt one single purchaser of a "full frame" back was truly mislead, irrespective of their intentions.

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    What are you saying? Dishonesty is ok if it makes a profit?

    Yes. Now that I read back on my post I see that is exactly what I meant.

    Mark

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I have to wonder if the entire "full-frame" marketing was used to contrast with scanning backs or something?
    On this point I agree with Graham.

    Blad did try to gain some marketing leverage over it's MFDB competitors,
    at the time, by using a little marketing slight of hand.
    At the same time,they had also just released a new viewfinder that did
    not require a mask to show the true crop.
    This logic, also,could be stretched a little to sell 'full frame' since the user
    saw only the capture area through the viewfinder thus 'full frame'.

    Mark

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Hasselblad deserves everything they get for that marketing turd.

    Btw, you are getting confused between two different meanings of 'full frame'.

    The main meaning in this forum, and the way in which Hasselblad meant it, relates to a sensor which covers the whole area of a given format, whether that be 35mm or 645 etc.

    When discussing CCD architecture, 'full frame' has another meaning. The 3 most common architecture types are: full-frame, frame-transfer and interline. This bears no relation on the overall size of the sensor.

    Only Hasselblad has ever (wrongly) described a 48x36mm sensor as full frame 645.
    Show me where they say exactly that.

    Hasselblad's discription is: ... "H3D/39 & H3D/22 are both full frame 48mm DSLRs using a sensor format 36X48.

    So, I've only seen it stated the way everyone else has. I don't know anyone who took it as meaning full frame 645 as they clearly communicated it as being a 1.1X sensor and even devloped a WA lens for 1.1X ... so only a complete idiot would take as meaning a FF 645 size as in 645 film ... which aparently some here have

  11. #61
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    full frame 48mm DSLRs
    If that makes sense to you then I'm happy for you. Let's move on.

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Natasa, I have a like new ImageBank-II for sale ... I got another one that came as part of a promotional package. I don't need 2 of them.

    PM me if interested.
    Marc

    If Natasa doesn't want the Imagebank I sure do (at the right price of course LOL)

    PM me if it becomes available

    Woody

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    LJ, keep think along those lines -- I suspect you are about to get your wish. And Hassleblad may have to re-do it's "Full Frame" marketing thingy
    Jack,
    Know you are probably working the kinks out a bit more, but thought to ask this anyway.

    Saw another thread someplace else where Phase was looking to match the Hassy H3DII-31 deal by putting together the new Phase 645 body, 80mm lens and a P30+ back for $18K. Is that perking ears up on folks at this point? That could be a nice kit to consider.

    LJ

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jeeze-o-peezo, what's with the piss on Hasselblad at every oportunity?

    EVERYONE calles it full frame ... including Kodak and Sinar... and, yes, Phase One also Jack
    Marc:

    Sheesh, it was a joke! I used Hassy because they are the commonly accepted scapegoat for this subject in the forums since they started calling 36x48 full frame back when everybody else was still calling it a "1.1 crop" on 645, then of course everybody else followed suit... Wasn't intending to slam Hassy at all, just used them as the example to hint that the new back is bigger than current "full frame" ... Sorry it offended. With that out of the way, how should we refer to a bigger sensor if/when it comes along so as not to offend anybody? "Fuller-Frame" -- ?
    Jack
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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    Sheesh, it was a joke! I used Hassy because they are the commonly accepted forum scapegoat for this subject since they started calling 36x48 full frame when everybody else was still calling it a 1.1 crop on 645... Wasn't intending to slam Hassy at all, just used them as the example to hint that the new back is bigger than current "full frame" ... Sorry it offended. What do we call a bigger sensor if/when it comes along so as not to offend anybody? "Fuller-Frame" -- ?
    maybe call it what it is.....645D and get away from the "crop crap" wordings and such.....

    LJ

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Marc,

    sorry, but the only "place" where we do use this term is in the technical specifications. And it is clearly mentioned that we are speaking about the "Full Frame TECHNOLOGY", under the specifications of the "CCD Sensor".

    Other than this we have never ever mentioned in any marketing brochure about a "Full Frame" sensor.

    Just wanted to put this straight.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    EVERYONE calles it full frame ... including Kodak and Sinar... and, yes, Phase One also Jack

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    On this point I agree with Graham.

    Blad did try to gain some marketing leverage over it's MFDB competitors,
    at the time, by using a little marketing slight of hand.
    At the same time,they had also just released a new viewfinder that did
    not require a mask to show the true crop.
    This logic, also,could be stretched a little to sell 'full frame' since the user
    saw only the capture area through the viewfinder thus 'full frame'.

    Mark
    Mark, if you take the prism off of an H3DII 22/31/39 you will see that there IS a mask over the focusing screen. The new prism has an additional dioptre at the rear that enlarges the image viewed through.

    BTW the actual sensor area on the 22MP and 39MP kodaks is 36.8X49.1 and it DOES says so on the Hasselblad data sheets. For whatever reason, they've chosen to market it as 36X48 which is probably why many people got confused.

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Oh my! my H3D11-39 isnt a full frame camera?

    BUGGER !!

    thanks for the info on this key issue guys!





    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    maybe call it what it is.....645D and get away from the "crop crap" wordings and such.....

    LJ

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Will there be any changes to DOF if the sensor is truly 645?

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    Looks like MR at LL has let the Phase 65+ rumor out a bit early, including pricing. Though only some speculative comments about "variable resolution", this still looks quite interesting.....and on a "proprietary" Dalsa sensor. Wonder what Sinar, et al. will be doing next?

    LJ

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    Re: Phase 60mpx MF back

    He did but I think there is more coming from Lance later, from a e-mail he sent me. He would not even tell me yet. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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