Kodak 22 meg sensor is history.

[fotografz]

The latest sensor chart on the Kodak site no longer lists any 22 meg sensor ...
and it's confirmed that when existing stocks are depleted at Hasselblad (and I presume Phase One) that great entry level MF digital choice is history. I had predicted this some time ago, and now it's come true.

No one seems to care about this. Am I the only one?

I am a fan of the 9X9 micron pixel sensors. Hassey CF22 & H3D-II/22, Phase One P25 & P25+ ... I learned to love 9X9 with the great 16 meg CFV back ... and 22 meg provides the same IQ only allows for wider lens capture.

I wonder if the new, full sized 645 sensor that's coming will fill that entry level void? 9X9 microns on a true full frame would be what? 25 meg?

 

[Graham Mitchell]

I don't mind that this particular sensor is history, as long as something similar (but improved) takes its place, e.g. a 645 size chip at 25-30MP with even larger photosites. In other words, the largest size sensor available with relatively large photosites (which was what I liked about the old 22MP chips).

Btw, Dalsa seems to still be selling their 22MP chip so this isn't really the end of the road for 22MP yet.

 

[thsinar]

Yes, true, for the time being and until further notice.

Best regards,
Thierry

Btw, Dalsa seems to still be selling their 22MP chip so this isn't really the end of the road for 22MP yet.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well the value of mine just went up. LOL
Frankly I take this as bad news, not sure what the truth or fiction is on the 9 micron sensor but from the little testing I did between the P45,P30 and the P25 sensors i liked the P25 better than all three of them. Of course the others had more detail but I thought and still do think the P25 has better color and look to it and it had a touch more DR. Now that is just what my eye sees and that does not see any scientific reasons. Please take that for what it is worth and also there is a vast difference between this 22mpx and any Canon file I have seen. So for me not sure this is a good thing. If they did go FF with it and it went to 25 or 28 than i would seriously consider it with a 9 microns sensor. Than again if a P45 Plus comes knocking at my door just begging me to buy it for really cheap than I would consider it , also reason why I only bought a 1 year warranty was I may move up at some point and I knew that going in but honestly I am in no hurry either. Very Rare for me to slow down to a crawl on this.Lenses is different and want to build this system a little more but I am still figuring out if i even need my Nikons anymore. If i can get this runway stuff shot next week with MF than Nikon may never see my bags again. But I do see a lot of changing going on this year with MF and even though I only bought this year i have been watching this market a long time and for some reason a lot of new product is hitting the streets but seeing the 22 mpx off Hassy's charts is sad , Phase from all I know is still making and selling it but tomorrow we will find out what Phase is up too, the word to me was amazing with what is coming but I don't know exactly what that means but i have a really good guess

 

[Dale Allyn]

I'm just thrilled to know that I just bought a P25+ back... have shot just enough frames to start to get a feel for it... left it home while I went to Thailand... and when I return home this week... it won't take nice photos anymore!!!

Damn. It's hard to keep up.

 

[Jack]

It is a sad loss for MF IMO... Not just as a lower-cost entry level tool, but there is a certain visual quality (that is hard to define) to the 9 micron files that does not exist in the larger backs.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL. Me Too Dale.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It is a sad loss for MF IMO... Not just as a lower-cost entry level tool, but there is a certain visual quality (that is hard to define) to the 9 micron files that does not exist in the larger backs.

Morning bud. As Jack and I poured over images in San Juan over the three backs we both kind of came to this same conclusion together, just something visual about it that we both liked. I went for this Jack went for more detail with the P45 Plus.

 

[Dale Allyn]

I agree, though I have seen fewer files than you two (and many other members here). I like the larger "sensels" and keep hoping that the back makers will give us something in the 39MP-ish range with large sensels perhaps full 645. IMO we need quality over quantity. Better high ISO performance would be very useful if we really want to leave DSLR behind.

It's all been said here in the past several days. There's a lot of activity in MFDB right now and that's wonderful. I'm just one to care damn little for megapixel races and the like.

On the bright side, perhaps this means that when I can move up to a back with even more detail, they'll be that much cheaper.

Cheers.

 

[RayM]

I'd guess that the P21+ is also history, then. This irritates me to no end as this was the back I was going to order.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Ray there still selling them. Call Lance at CI or i can check for you

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Ray have you seen this promotion

http://www.phaseone.com/Global/NewsLetters/NewsPhase/EblastCameraPromotion1.aspx

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It has the same sensor as the P25 plus 9 micron but did not realize until I just checked and Jack reminded me the P21 plus has micro lenses like the P30 plus. It is also cropped like the P30 plus also

Hmmm the difference between them is a extra stop ISO on the P30 plus and one being 9 micron and the other 6.8 for the P30 plus but the P21 is also faster at .08

Specs between them
http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus/P30+.aspx

http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus/P21+.aspx

Learned something here today.

 

[RayM]

Thank you. Yup, I've been in conversation with Lance recently, and for me, it's only about the best timing of the purchase. The Phocus P21+ offering is very tempting, but I have the contax 645 and will get one for that mount. In an ideal world I would purchase the P25+ for all of its several obvious benefits, but there are two issues for me: the current price just isn't in the budget, and I have this sneaking suspicion that the P21+ will do the vast majority of things I'd ever ask of a camera/lens/back combination. A couple of weeks ago, I downloaded an image that was done with the P21+ and played with it a bit. When I was done working with it, I interpolated the image size to print 22" square at 300. It looked just terrific, and interpolated up in a way that felt just like my M8 files (which I find incredibly easy to work with). It's highly likely that 20 inch and 22 square, or 20/22 by X inches would be the biggest my clients would want me to print (yes, an occassional 40 inch print would not be out of the question, but then I'd find someone with a bigger printer, as I only have the Epson 7800), and the P21+ looks like it will go to 40 inches without too terribly much effort or paranoia on my part, if the source file is good to begin with. Again, would I like to have a P25+? Yes, I'd love to have one, but if I hold out for one, it'll have to be a used, demo, or refurb unit. You know, I keep looking at the quality of the photos that people are still making with the Kodak Pro Back, and honestly, if it were a 645 dimension back rather than a square, I'd probably go for it.

 

[lance_schad]

Just because Kodak is not manufacturing the sensor anymore does not mean the product is no good anymore , or will not be sold. I am sure that due the success of the P25/P25+ for example Phase One has taken a good inventory of the raw sensors. They have made no indication of taking it out of the product mix as of right now. There is also a great refurbished market that they trade in as well. So I would not worry they will be around for some time.
Please remember this is a tool that has been built to just plain work, it is a solid state device.
It just may not be developed further with the latest bells and whistles. The original Lightphases from 9+ years ago still work the same they did as day one except thet the new Capture One Pro produces better images from the RAW files.
Just my 2 cents and will have a post early on Monday with all the other info.

LLance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5701 office
Capture Integration

[email protected]

 

[RayM]

Thanks Lance, I'll look forward to the updates as they become available.

 

[fotografz]

Just because Kodak is not manufacturing the sensor anymore does not mean the product is no good anymore , or will not be sold. I am sure that due the success of the P25/P25+ for example Phase One has taken a good inventory of the raw sensors. They have made no indication of taking it out of the product mix as of right now. There is also a great refurbished market that they trade in as well. So I would not worry they will be around for some time.
Please remember this is a tool that has been built to just plain work, it is a solid state device.
It just may not be developed further with the latest bells and whistles. The original Lightphases from 9+ years ago still work the same they did as day one except thet the new Capture One Pro produces better images from the RAW files.
Just my 2 cents and will have a post early on Monday with all the other info.

LLance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5701 office
Capture Integration

[email protected]

I'm sure Kodak had it's business reasons to discontinue the sensor ... what they are I have no idea. But Lance is right, plenty of opportunity to get one in the near future. What we don't know is how large an inventory each of the back makers have in stock. And just like with Capture One, Phocus has brought upgrades to all Hasselblad backs including the CFV.

I'm still very interested in a 22 meg back for my H2F to use with the Zeiss V optics ... either a Hasselblad CF-22 or a Phase One P25+ (if they figure out the firmware needs).

What would be delightful is if they'd do some promotional work with this sensor to clear inventory. It's a great way to get into MF digital capture, and as has been stated numerous times, the 9X9 micron backs have a certain look to them that offers an inexplicable pictorial quality that the smaller micron sensors somewhat lack. It's just another image choice in the MF arsenal.

The best would be a full sized 645 sensor with 9X9 Microns at a nice price ... eventually. But frankly gaining 1.1X in area would have a minimal effect on IQ unless accompanied by some proprietary technology not available on current backs, and not upgradable on curent backs by means of software and firmware.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree Marc if they did bring it to full frame it would be nice but the gain may not be worth it for someone like me since I am really not buying much in upgrade unless there are some other benefits like speed of back or something that can be useful like that extra stop at ISO 1600. The 2 things I want are some shooting speed get it down to 1 second for me instead of 1.5 and one more stop and frankly you won't hear me say another word, I would be happy as a pig in mud.

 

[PeterA]

You guys are wrong - you NEED the new large megapixel sensors. i will buy your P25+ Guy for $5K - Thanks ( see what a nice guy I am ?) :ROTFL: