I'll try to get some figures to you with answers in the next day or so. I'll refrain from delving too deeply into the technical minutiae, as to keep it as accessible as possible. I'm sure Google could give me all of the information necessary, but if you could, please post the sensor dimensions, and the pixel dimensions of the images."Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."
OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"
Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?
If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed I should drop my Contax 645 down to if I want to not take too great a risk that the eyes of the person will look like porridge?
By "acceptably sharp" I mean that if I print the image at 300dpi edges of eyes, hairs and contours of lips are more like lines than blobs.
And to complicate matters even further, what is the minimum shutter speed you would suggest if the person is moving at a walking pace across the frame at a constant distance from the camera?
Maybe like most others reading this even I can figure this out with film but have more trouble doing same with digital.
The reason that I am asking is to try and figure out if I really can hand hold this beast or if I need to invest (which I really don't want to do) in a lower rez DSLR to take over when I want to go off tripod.
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Wow that would be wonderful Gabe. Just happy somebody understands my question.
You are right about google:
eMotion75 Active sensor size. 48.0 x 36.0 mm; sensor resolution 6668x4992 pixels
Output image size at 300dpi: 6621 x 4931 pixels with document size: 56.05cm x 41.75cm.
If possible I prefer to print much larger that is fortunately quite doable with this MFDB that gives a clean image all the way up 100 zoom in Photoshop ("actual pixels"). Now try that with a 5MP point and shoot jpg.
You are right about google:
eMotion75 Active sensor size. 48.0 x 36.0 mm; sensor resolution 6668x4992 pixels
Output image size at 300dpi: 6621 x 4931 pixels with document size: 56.05cm x 41.75cm.
If possible I prefer to print much larger that is fortunately quite doable with this MFDB that gives a clean image all the way up 100 zoom in Photoshop ("actual pixels"). Now try that with a 5MP point and shoot jpg.
Practice."Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."
OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"
Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?
If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed you would recommend I risk I dropping my Contax 645 down to if I want to be fairly sure the eyes of the person will look not like porridge?
There is no universal answer other than that. Some people have tremor and other people can put 3 bullets in same hole on the target from 200 paces.
1/(focal) is typical rule
I.e with 80mm lens : 1/80 or faster. Format does not affect this
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
For medium format I've seen this as more like 1/(2 * focal length) if you want sharp images handheld.1/(focal) is typical rule
I.e with 80mm lens : 1/80 or faster. Format does not affect this
1/2*f is the typical rule-of-thumb. For MF, with 60Mp and beyond, I've noticed it to be more like 1/3*f for hand-held shooting.
As far as the calculations, I've not had much time to sit down and do some thinking in this matter. In any case, you'll have a very high "keeper rate" with 1/3*f, but 1/2*f should get you by just fine for the most part.
"If you want to succeed, double your failure rate" - Thomas Watson
Thanks,
Looks like all I have to figure out is how to double my failure rate, as Sergei suggests, even though what he advises about focal length is not correct for MFDB otherwise I would be getting somewhat the same results as I do shooting film.
Thanks,
Looks like all I have to figure out is how to double my failure rate, as Sergei suggests, even though what he advises about focal length is not correct for MFDB otherwise I would be getting somewhat the same results as I do shooting film.
Well.. like i said - its very individual
I dont think there is any real universal answer to this, b/c i some people do have surgeon hands and others could bloody hold cup of water steady The photographer's state of body and mind do make a difference, and on long days with 4kg cameras strength would make a difference, but consciously relaxing mentally while bracing yourself physically can make a big difference.
Ok then what is the slowest ss you hand hold your 28+ MP MFDB & 80mm focal length lens with acceptable results (along the lines specified in my previous post) on a good day?
If you could post a 100 % crop with no sharpening from relevant part of a sample image that would be even more useful.
If you could post a 100 % crop with no sharpening from relevant part of a sample image that would be even more useful.
Shashin
Well-known member
Hello, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I have a Pentax 645D and I have not found it anymore difficult to hand hold than other cameras. I previously used medium-format film cameras--6x6 and 6x12. I can use the camera with a 55mm lens at 1/60 or 1/125 with very consistent results. Because I like to hold my cameras in very dark conditions (tripods are not my thing), I test and practice with my gear. I have 1:3 or 1:2 chance of getting a sharp image at an 1/8 of a second with that lens as well. That surprised me as I usually don't like cameras with mirrors.
As pointed out, this is my mileage, yours my vary. But hand holding medium-format digital cameras is not a Herculean task.
One other point. A 100% crop is not an ideal target simply because it does not represent a real viewing condition. An image is either going to be printed or displayed online. 100% does not accurately represent sharpness regardless of the final image size.
As pointed out, this is my mileage, yours my vary. But hand holding medium-format digital cameras is not a Herculean task.
One other point. A 100% crop is not an ideal target simply because it does not represent a real viewing condition. An image is either going to be printed or displayed online. 100% does not accurately represent sharpness regardless of the final image size.
Ok, I'm convinced: forget about 1:3 or 1:2 - according to Shashin this can be done at ss 1/8 second that correct me if I calculate wrong is about 7 times less than focal length. Looks like time to sign up for that Zen Body-building course.
Sure 100% crop is not an ideal target for MFDB images that are going to be presented online as 5x7 72 dpi jpgs. However if this is how you present your work why shoot with MFDB?
If the image is printed quite large for example at 1 meters x 2 meters or larger at 300 dpi then what the sharpness of a "little" (compared to full-res scan of 4x5 neg) MFDB file looks like at 100% is relevant; at least I have found printing at this size exposes everything both good and bad that can be extracted from the original digital file. Hence my original question.
Sure 100% crop is not an ideal target for MFDB images that are going to be presented online as 5x7 72 dpi jpgs. However if this is how you present your work why shoot with MFDB?
If the image is printed quite large for example at 1 meters x 2 meters or larger at 300 dpi then what the sharpness of a "little" (compared to full-res scan of 4x5 neg) MFDB file looks like at 100% is relevant; at least I have found printing at this size exposes everything both good and bad that can be extracted from the original digital file. Hence my original question.
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GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
The thing about shooting handheld is that the results are also heavily dependent upon the focal length being used and to a certain degree on the subject too. Personally since I shoot primarily landscapes I find shooting MF handheld for those types of images a waste of time & opportunity. For other types of subject such as portraiture I'm certain that you'd find the results much more acceptable. I can shoot much slower with a RF than I can with a MF DSLR. I can shoot comparable speeds with a MF DSLR as I can with a 35mm DSLR, although I do very much appreciate the advantages of image stabilization with the smaller format!!
There really isn't a single definitive answer here other than 'recommendations'. You can improve your handheld technique to get very acceptable results at even low shutter speeds but don't expect 100% keepers with critical sharpness. If you want that use a stable tripod, mirror lock up, cable release or a camera system without mirrors etc.
Ultimately you need to try it yourself and see how well YOU can handhold and under what circumstances.
There really isn't a single definitive answer here other than 'recommendations'. You can improve your handheld technique to get very acceptable results at even low shutter speeds but don't expect 100% keepers with critical sharpness. If you want that use a stable tripod, mirror lock up, cable release or a camera system without mirrors etc.
Ultimately you need to try it yourself and see how well YOU can handhold and under what circumstances.
Followed your suggestion and tried this myself today with eMotion75 + Contax 645 + 80mm lens:
shutter speed 125 = not good enough for big prints
shutter speed 250 = 50/50
shutter speed 500 = good enough for big prints
Not surprisingly when I reduced the image size of the 32MP files in photoshop by 50% (ie roughly 16MP camera image size simulation mode?) everything looked better ie images shot at shutter speed 250 looked "good enough" and the ones shot at 125 looked more like 50/50 -- though this does not take into consideration the design advantages of a DSLR system compared to a MFDB such as less weight.
So am thinking about sticking with trying to handhold this beast - maybe with a monopod - though when I tried the same "test" as above with the camera on my tripod with just one leg of the tripod extended (ie what NASA would call "monopod simulation mode") the results were worse than plain hand held don't ask me why? - probably because Manfrotto never designed my tripod to act as a monopod?
:banghead:
shutter speed 125 = not good enough for big prints
shutter speed 250 = 50/50
shutter speed 500 = good enough for big prints
Not surprisingly when I reduced the image size of the 32MP files in photoshop by 50% (ie roughly 16MP camera image size simulation mode?) everything looked better ie images shot at shutter speed 250 looked "good enough" and the ones shot at 125 looked more like 50/50 -- though this does not take into consideration the design advantages of a DSLR system compared to a MFDB such as less weight.
So am thinking about sticking with trying to handhold this beast - maybe with a monopod - though when I tried the same "test" as above with the camera on my tripod with just one leg of the tripod extended (ie what NASA would call "monopod simulation mode") the results were worse than plain hand held don't ask me why? - probably because Manfrotto never designed my tripod to act as a monopod?
:banghead:
I really can't add much to what Graham already expressed. There is no one specific rule in regards to exactly what shutter speeds and what kinds of support may or may not be necessary when shooting say MFD for example. It not only varies by equipment but differences between an individual's capabilities and also their requirements in regards to output.
Where some may find observing results by looking at actual pxiels (100% crops) not truly realistic or representing the kind of output they require, some find it absolutely maditory (and required)...especially for output to large format prints. I am in the latter camp.
Keep in mind that there will be times when the opportunity to photograph something might be a "one time occasion only", so extracting the best possible image quailty with your equipment on hand may be important, even though the immediate use of the image may be for web viewing. One never knows when the desire to print that image fairly large may be something that's wanted, down the road.
Dave (D&A)
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"Keep in mind that there will be times when the opportunity to photograph something might be a "one time occasion only", so extracting the best possible image quailty with your equipment on hand may be important"
option 1) risk shooting MFDB hand held?
option 2) don't move off the tripod and lose the shot that way?
option 3) secure the shot with a DSLR that is easier to hand hold but cannot provide comparable IQ
option 4) Zen body building course
option 5) hire Zen body builder to take the shot for you
option 1) risk shooting MFDB hand held?
option 2) don't move off the tripod and lose the shot that way?
option 3) secure the shot with a DSLR that is easier to hand hold but cannot provide comparable IQ
option 4) Zen body building course
option 5) hire Zen body builder to take the shot for you
Zen body builder can "lift up" and hold steady the equipment, but may not have technical expertise to aquire the best shot. Instead:
option 6) Take along (ie: all expenses paid) a well qualified Getdpi member with their associated photo equipment to work out the details and "get the shot", while you relax nearby with a cold drink, acting in the role of art director.
Dave (D&A)
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