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Thread: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

  1. #1
    HCHeyerdahl
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    Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    As I understand, with more pixels, the more dificult it is to shoot handheld (and get sharp pictures).

    Now, does this also depend on sensor size?
    Will a say 37mp Nikon D?x be more or less difficult to shoot hand held then a leica S2?

    Also, I wounder if the current 37 mp of the S2 may be at some kind of sweet spot regarding hand held shooting, and that if an eventual S3 has say 48mp one would more or less loose the current ability to use it as s grab and shoot?


    Chris

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    I'd say it depends less on sensor size than it does on sensor pitch.

    The smaller the sensor pitch & associated high resolution, the more likely you are to resolve a slight movement into visible blur. When the sensor pitch is larger, the same slight absolute movement of the lens will resolve into a lower resolution which may mask the visibility of the slight blur. For example, if the movement of the lens resolved into say 10um on the sensor, with a 5um pitch you would capture that movement across 2 pixels whilst with an 8um sensor pitch you might only capture that 'blur' in a single pixel and hence not see it as anything other than sharp.

    Put another way, when I shot handheld with a D3s vs D3x, I might get away with images that would appear sharper from the D3s vs the D3x under the same circumstances. Down sample the D3x image to the same resolution as the D3s and you'd see basically a similar level of sharpness / lack of blur.
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Your ground sample density is agnostic of your sensor size. It's based purely around the pixel element size, distance to subject, and focal length. To be more specific, you can determine your effective sample resolution with the following equation:

    ((sensor dimension)/(number of pixels in that dimension) * distance to subject)/focal length.

    *All measurements in meters.

    This will give you your ground sample density. Knowing this, you can determine how quickly your shutter must actuate to prevent any pixel shifting. This is an incomplete description of the problem, as I am refraining from approximating a human's resting minutes-of-arc ((theta) = s/r, but as it would be varying, it would be a partial-diff). Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy.
    Last edited by coulombic; 7th May 2011 at 02:42. Reason: More to add.

  4. #4
    HCHeyerdahl
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Thanks, this was clarifying.

    Chris

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    Your ground sample density is agnostic of your sensor size. It's based purely around the pixel element size, distance to subject, and focal length. To be more specific, you can determine your effective sample resolution with the following equation:

    ((sensor dimension)/(number of pixels in that dimension) * distance to subject)/focal length.

    *All measurements in meters.

    This will give you your ground sample density. Knowing this, you can determine how quickly your shutter must actuate to prevent any pixel shifting. This is an incomplete description of the problem, as I am refraining from approximating a human's resting minutes-of-arc ((theta) = s/r, but as it would be varying, it would be a partial-diff). Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy.
    This is what we call disc of confusion? or square of confusion if you are talking rectangular?

    Camera-shake blur depends on:

    shutter speed, to the camera's ability to work well at high ISO is a factor.

    the ergonomics of the camera

    mirror vibration

    inertia of the camera/lens/grip combination...

    a long heavy lens is more stable, and I could shoot my non-telephoto Novoflex 640mm with shoudler grip at 1/125th (lying flat as you would using a rifle)

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    This is what we call disc of confusion? or square of confusion if you are talking rectangular?

    Camera-shake blur depends on:

    shutter speed, to the camera's ability to work well at high ISO is a factor.

    the ergonomics of the camera

    mirror vibration

    inertia of the camera/lens/grip combination...

    a long heavy lens is more stable, and I could shoot my non-telephoto Novoflex 640mm with shoudler grip at 1/125th (lying flat as you would using a rifle)
    No, I'm not talking about the Circle of Confusion (CoC), or Airy Disks. I'm speaking very specifically about ground sample distance (GSD). With this calculation, each pixel is representative of specific units of distance. Knowing the distance each pixel represents, you can determine how still you need to hold the camera before pixel-shifting occurs. This has nothing to do with the CoC, DoF, or the resolution between Airy Disks (diffraction).
    --
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    No, I'm not talking about the Circle of Confusion (CoC), or Airy Disks. I'm speaking very specifically about ground sample distance (GSD). With this calculation, each pixel is representative of specific units of distance. Knowing the distance each pixel represents, you can determine how still you need to hold the camera before pixel-shifting occurs. This has nothing to do with the CoC, DoF, or the resolution between Airy Disks (diffraction).
    ¿The size, at the subject, of each pixel?

    The subject sample resolution (which, I think, is what you are talking about) is obviously related to the CoC, or subject res, as you cannot resolve detail much smaller than your sample frequency or resolution.

    ...and angular camera shake tends to be more important than lateral shake.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    ¿The size, at the subject, of each pixel?

    The subject sample resolution (which, I think, is what you are talking about) is obviously related to the CoC, or subject res, as you cannot resolve detail much smaller than your sample frequency or resolution.

    ...and angular camera shake tends to be more important than lateral shake.
    Indeed, angular camera shake (theta = s/r) would prove to be a very difficult calculation to make, as I mentioned before. Nevertheless, the angular velocity can be approximated in a linear fashion, simply making estimates of how much distance the lower and upper limits of the subject movement are. Putting a laser-pointer on the lens while attempting this is a useful mechanism to effectively demonstrate the linear travel.

    Essentially, if you do the math, even once, you'll see how difficult it is to obtain sharp focus with a very high resolution camera and a long focal length lens without using a tripod. That is to say, damn near impossible.

    I'm not speaking about the CoC. The CoC is the point at which light comes into focus on the focal plane. I'm using "focus" as an axiom. I'm not trying to calculate diffraction, or lines per inch, or anything along these lines. Just the distance per pixel based around the parameters of focal length, distance, and pixel element size.

    If I were trying to calculate, say, something related to "deep focus," or hyperfocal focus, I'd naturally need to take into consideration. All matters of DoF are inherently related to the Circle of Confusion. GSD? Not so much.

    I believe you're also tangling Rayleigh's Criterion/diffraction into this, as Rayleigh's Criterion is ultimately the max resolution obtainable based around the wavelength of light.
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    ¿The size, at the subject, of each pixel?

    The subject sample resolution (which, I think, is what you are talking about) is obviously related to the CoC, or subject res, as you cannot resolve detail much smaller than your sample frequency or resolution.

    ...and angular camera shake tends to be more important than lateral shake.
    Once again, for everyone's edification, GSD, or ground sample distance, is defined by the following equation:

    ((pixel element size)*distance to subject)/focal length).
    --
    Gabe

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    No, I'm not talking about the Circle of Confusion (CoC), or Airy Disks. I'm speaking very specifically about ground sample distance (GSD). With this calculation, each pixel is representative of specific units of distance. Knowing the distance each pixel represents, you can determine how still you need to hold the camera before pixel-shifting occurs. This has nothing to do with the CoC, DoF, or the resolution between Airy Disks (diffraction).
    Yes, extremely important. In earlier days of DSLR's, this phenominon was just beginning to be understood (to a degree) with the masses of digital photographers. When Nikon's D1x camera was first introduced, going from 2.7 MP of the original D1 to 6MP of the D1x, people started noticing slightly soft and blurred images from Nikon's 80-400 f5.6 zoom lens. Even though that lens had VR, people used to shoot that lens at rediculous slow shutter speeds and get blur free shots with their D1's. When they upgraded to the D1x (from either the D1 or D1H), people complained that there was some sort of interface issue with using that specific lens with their new cameras whereby images were soft and had elements of blur...at the same shutter speeds they were previously using. The term "digital blur" was often used at that time. Of course this phenominon would occur with any long telephoto, but for whatever reason, it was the 80-400 f5.6 that was often cited as an example. After this, people began to realize that this issue was seperate from "circle of confusion and the rule of hand holding specific focal lengths at certain shutter speeds that they calculated, when using these long lenses on film based cameras. Of course all these other criteria are all taken into consideration when it comes to the bigger picture (no pun intended).

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    It's interesting also because the pixel pitch affects the newer higher resolution 16/24mp consumer cameras such as the Nikon D7000 which means that they're becoming brutal with consumer glass and only perform well with the best lenses.

    The following is a less than perfect diagram (I can't be bothered to draw one) of the sensor pitch/pixel distance issue but you get the general idea:
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Graham Wrote >>>"It's interesting also because the pixel pitch affects the newer higher resolution 16/24mp consumer cameras such as the Nikon D7000 which means that they're becoming brutal with consumer glass and only perform well with the best lenses."<<<

    Graham, funny (and interesting) you mentioned the "above" example in your statement. There is currently a heated debated with some non pro's, making the case that the # of keepers (ie: sharp images) with their newely aquired D7000, isn't anywheres near the numbers of their former D700 body, without realizing the reasons why and now they are disgrunted.

    It's not only with consumer glass but with any good glass where they don't consider the physics of what you illustrated in your diagram...namely the consequence of pixel pitch/density of pixels on their handheld shots, especially with longer focal length lenses....or even simply the shutter speeds they choose to use vis-a-vis the focal length of their lens.

    Oh by the way Graham, are you sure your diagram wasn't originally used as an illustration of ICBM's during the cold war era?

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th May 2011 at 19:25.

  13. #13
    GPA
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    New to this site, so forgive me for this stupid question. Would shooting with strobes avoid the problem?

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Hi,

    First welcome to Getdpi. Secondly there are really no stupid questions, when asked with the intent of learning information...and I should know, asking my own share of rediculous questions through the years .

    As a simple answer..."No" or not really. This is about camera movement relative to the subject, not subject movement. If you subject say was a non moving object, like a tree for example. If you shot that tree handheld with a 12MP DSLR, and lowered your shutter speed to the point at which Pixel pitch played a role in softening or bluring the image...adding strobe to the equation would have no effect on changing the dynamics of pixel pitch on camera movement. Simply, the strobe (depending on setting) would only help in freezing motion if the subject was moving and caused subject blur due to it's subsequent movement. This is sort of the "short answer" in a nutshell.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th May 2011 at 10:09.

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    GPA
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    So shutter speed is the key element for hand held use?

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Well that and good support, like using a tripod wherever possible...especially when one is dealing with high pixel densitites. There are a number of variables that affect image quality. Thats why grabbing a 12MP DSLR vs. say a 40 MP (or higher) MF camera or even a 24MP D3x for example, requires "impecable technique" such as proper support, to extract the most out of the imager. This of course goes along with the other usual variables such as using lenses of high optical quality.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Work around when in doubt. Monopod

    In situations outside the tripod and hairly on handheld the mono can save the day. It's so overlooked by many.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  18. #18
    GPA
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Dave thanks for your help--Lesson learned, I made a big mistake returning my 80mm LS lens (had 3 defective lenses and gave up)--Using 1/1600 setting would have helped with this problem.

    Thanks again.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GPA View Post
    New to this site, so forgive me for this stupid question. Would shooting with strobes avoid the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi,
    Simply, the strobe (depending on setting) would only help in freezing motion if ...
    If blur would have been caused by any movement of the camera and/or subject, using flash would eliminate it, or drastically reduce it if:

    The shutter speed was reduced to the point at which continuous light was effectively eliminated (this is not possible, with flash sync, in bright sunlight with a focal plane shutter)

    The flash duration was short enough to effectively eliminate blur

    Quote Originally Posted by GPA View Post
    So shutter speed is the key element for hand held use?
    One of them... the skill and state of health of the photographer are also relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    Camera-shake blur depends on:

    shutter speed, so the camera's ability to work well at high ISO is a factor.

    the ergonomics of the camera

    mirror vibration

    inertia of the camera/lens/grip combination...

    a long heavy lens is more stable, and I could shoot my non-telephoto Novoflex 640mm with shoulder grip at 1/125th (lying flat as you would using a rifle)
    Using a tilt lens or tilt adapter gives you more DOF, or allows you to use a faster shutter speed with the same DOF.

    Natural light often looks more natural or better than flash... a compromise is a combination of flash and natural light.

    With a large subject like a cathedral, lighting the whole subject with flash would be a major undertaking... and a tripod or a high-iso camera might be needed.

    You could fit stabilizers to the camera, like those used by archers... but now we have electronic stabilizers... but only on consumer cameras? The assumption is that pros use tripods or flash?

    ...but the topic is about the extent of the problem, not about ways to avoid it.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    I brought my P65+ and used 150mm a lot for my holiday 2010 travel. That was the first time I shoot ambient light only ( usually in the studio with strobe).

    Almost 97% of my images handheld was blur (and i don't even bother to check the focus with the stupid LCD). So yes med format with large sensor is definitely harder.

    So tripod is a must.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Work around when in doubt. Monopod

    In situations outside the tripod and hairly on handheld the mono can save the day. It's so overlooked by many.
    Guy "nailed it" regarding use the monopod, when that extra support over handheld is necessary. Often when I can't use the tripod, I have one of those Bogan Monopod's with the optional "pull out" three tiny legs at its base. Those legs have sometimes given me considerable stability greater than a regular monopod, but of course nowheres near the stability of a tripod. Some like this particular model monopod, some don't. I've found it handy with certain camera/lens combinations, when a tripod's use is impractical for a given situation.

    You're welcome GPA. It's sometimes a matter of practicing and trying things out in order to improve the chances of getting the desired results (at least before one pulls out whatever hair they have left on their head

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th May 2011 at 19:26.

  22. #22
    HCHeyerdahl
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Hmmm.
    The pixel size of the P65+, Leica S2 and Nikon D3x is almoat identical (6 micron).

    Now, if I understand the argument above, they should theoretically all be approx equally demanding to shoot hand held.

    A number of people report sucessfully using a D3x hand held. Some are reporting the same for the S2. Now many claim that P65+ and similar high res bodies need to be on a tripod. Is this simply because the D3x and S2 can use higher ISO & shutterspeeds? Or are perhaps the P65+ and other digital backs just plain difficult to opperate hand held compared to a DSLR-type camera body?

    Sincerely,

    Chris
    Last edited by HCHeyerdahl; 8th May 2011 at 11:23. Reason: Deleted unneccesary quote

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by HCHeyerdahl View Post
    Hmmm.
    The pixel size of the P65+, Leica S2 and Nikon D3x is almoat identical (6 micron).

    Now, if I understand the argument above, they should theoretically all be approx equally demanding to shoot hand held.
    Only if the focal length and distance to subject were the same, which they would not be for the same composition, as the sensor sizes are different.

    A number of people report sucessfully using a D3x hand held. Some are reporting the same for the S2. Now many claim that P65+ and similar high res bodies need to be on a tripod. Is this simply because the D3x and S2 can use higher ISO & shutterspeeds? Or are perhaps the P65+ and other digital backs just plain difficult to opperate hand held compared to a DSLR-type camera body?

    Sincerely,

    Chris
    A heavier bigger camera may be more difficult to hold, and tiring to hold all day, but my big and heavy Hasselblad 50-110 zoom would be theoretically less prone to camera shake than a prime at the same focal length. The bigger lens also serves as a handle for steadier holding.

    With a GF2/GH2 you get the opposite effect - camera too small to get your hands round, but short lenses, large apertures (e.g. f 1.7) and high ISO help to avoid camera shake, and the Anti-Aliasing filter and lower pixel quality make it harder to spot camera shake.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Calculator results, just to see some numbers!

    0.000009*100/0.10
    9 micron at 100m with 100mm lens (Canon 5D)
    effective sample resolution = 0.009

    0.000006*100/0.1
    6 micron at 100m with 100mm lens (Aka Nikon D3x)
    effective sample resolution = 0.006

    0.000006*100/0.12
    6 micron at 100m with 120mm lens ( S2/P40/Pentax )
    effective sample resolution = 0.005

    0.0000055*100/0.15
    5.5 micron at 100m with 150mm lens (Full MFD-- IQ180/Leaf12)
    effective sample resolution = 0.0036

    0.000006*100/0.15
    6 micron at 100m with 150mm lens (full MFD -- P65/Etc)
    effective sample resolution = 0.004

    0.000009*100/0.15 (full MFD -- P25/Etc)
    9 micron at 100m with 150mm lens
    effective sample resolution = 0.006

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    If pixel density has such a huge impact on blur caused by camera shake, shouldn't Sensor+ mode eliminate this to a certain extend since the density gets multiplied by four'? Or wouldn't it make a difference as the image gets downsampled later while it's being processed?

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post

    Oh by the way Graham, are you sure your diagram wasn't originally used as an illustration of ICBM's during the cold war era?

    Dave (D&A)
    My lips are sealed.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKißler View Post
    If pixel density has such a huge impact on blur caused by camera shake, shouldn't Sensor+ mode eliminate this to a certain extend since the density gets multiplied by four'? Or wouldn't it make a difference as the image gets downsampled later while it's being processed?
    Generally, yes. Down sampling will do this for you anyway.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  27. #27
    HCHeyerdahl
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Thanks guys this has been really helpfull!

    Reegarding my initial question, I conclude that there will be some differense between a D3x and a S2 regarding the ability to be used hand held - but fare less than the diffence between a D3x and a D700.

    To get the same composition, and assuming a lens equivalent ratio of roughly 1:1.2, I would have to use a 100mm and 120mm on the D3x and S2 respectively and get effective sample resolutions 0.006 vs 0.005 at 100 meters (0.0084 on a D700/D3s).

    Furthermore, to compensate for difference in dof I would roughly have to decrease aperture approx 1 step and thus loose half the shutter speed on the S2.

    I also conclude that if future D4x and S3 increase resolution the pixel pitch may become so small that the cameras become very demanding to use hand held unless the ISO abilities catch up allowing use of higher shutter speeds.

    Chris

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by HCHeyerdahl View Post
    I also conclude that if future D4x and S3 increase resolution the pixel pitch may become so small that the cameras become very demanding to use hand held unless the ISO abilities catch up allowing use of higher shutter speeds.

    Chris
    This would seem a very reasonable conclusion.

    The quest for greater and greater resolution from the same size sensor results in more challenges for lenses, imaging workflow and technique. Add in ever reducing DoF and also earlier onset of diffraction requiring even more limited & wider usable aperture settings, and you can see where things are leading. Basically, it gets harder to shoot well as you increase the resolution/decrease sensor pitch and impeccable technique & support becomes even more essential than it already is.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Work around when in doubt. Monopod

    In situations outside the tripod and hairly on handheld the mono can save the day. It's so overlooked by many.
    As a MFDB newbie, I cannot underscore this enough. Never used a monopod with my M8 or M9 but got a Bembo shortly after I bought the S2. I tested it at home and was able to get a sharp immage with 180mm lens at 1/25th. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting. On a recent trip to Sicily it proved the most important accessory, You can easily carry it and use it at many places where a tripod would be impractical or inappropriate.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    In the end I would say there are three factors (with pixel pitch):
    1) motion blur (from the subject) as discussed (not to be avoided by a tripod)
    2) blur from the cameranot being stable/mirror shale etc.
    3) the more pixel on same or smaller sensor size the more demanding regarding the glass.

    What I can say for sure is that the S2 can be used in a lot of situations handheld. I usually set my autoiso to max 1/250 and max 640 ISO and that works for me in many situations pretty good.

    I have handhold some images at 1/30 and 1/60 with the 70mm lens on the S2 with really acceptable results.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post

    Generally, yes. Down sampling will do this for you anyway.

    yup. Think contact printing

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    for cameras with leaf shutters, MLU is pretty good too. Sometimes with a long lens (>150 mm), brace the camera, lock up the mirror, and grab 3-4 quick shots... one will probably be sharp. This technique has worked with handheld 300 mm hand at 1/125, and 40 mm down to 1/30....

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GMB View Post
    As a MFDB newbie, I cannot underscore this enough. Never used a monopod with my M8 or M9 but got a Bembo shortly after I bought the S2. I tested it at home and was able to get a sharp immage with 180mm lens at 1/25th. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting. On a recent trip to Sicily it proved the most important accessory, You can easily carry it and use it at many places where a tripod would be impractical or inappropriate.
    Also monopod is self-defense thingy that you can carry around places, unlike baseball club

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Not to go to far OT but I highly recommend this head. This one I actually put my Arca Flip lever clamp on. They have a few models but really nice head for any monopod.

    http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductD...od-Head&key=it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    While I don't have a S2 or a D3X, I do have a D7000 and a ZD, and under strobes, I can seem to hand hold just fine at 1/125, no matter what lens I'm using. The ZD w/ 150mm should be just at the edge based on all that I'm reading here, but I seem to be getting pretty good sharpness. Same goes for the D7000/D300 80-200 lens. This is all at f9-11, moving to natural light and lower f stop numbers, there is noticeable loss of sharpness.

    I will be getting a P30+ soon, and hope to get the same type sharpness on the crop sensor without resorting to a tripod in the studio, with strobes, but reading this thread does not give me a lot of hope in this respect. Am I missing something here?

    Dave

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Also monopod is self-defense thingy that you can carry around places, unlike baseball club
    Stick with aluminum for travel just for this purpose...carbon fiber does not hold up well to abuse.

    However, I wonder if I could mount a RRS Monopod Head on a Louisville Slugger?

    Bob

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GMB View Post
    .. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting..
    I typically combine a shoulder stock & monopod and have occasionally gotten sharp photos at 1/15 sec with a 35mm camera & 280mm lens when leaning against a car.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Stick with aluminum for travel just for this purpose...carbon fiber does not hold up well to abuse.
    Hmm.. my first CF tripod, bought in 2006 travelled across the pond and back quite a few times, being through offroading trips and mountainboarding accidents.. Still kicking, still well.. Only time when it went down was when dude in Washington's (DC) airport decided to disassemble it "just in case" and kindly forgot to put in all parts.. But trip to local ACE hardware shop in Phoenix , week after that, before shoot supplied me with all the missing washers and parts.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by djonesii View Post
    While I don't have a S2 or a D3X, I do have a D7000 and a ZD, and under strobes, I can seem to hand hold just fine at 1/125, no matter what lens I'm using. The ZD w/ 150mm should be just at the edge based on all that I'm reading here, but I seem to be getting pretty good sharpness. Same goes for the D7000/D300 80-200 lens. This is all at f9-11, moving to natural light and lower f stop numbers, there is noticeable loss of sharpness.

    I will be getting a P30+ soon, and hope to get the same type sharpness on the crop sensor without resorting to a tripod in the studio, with strobes, but reading this thread does not give me a lot of hope in this respect. Am I missing something here?

    Dave
    If you shoot in dark enough studio setting, with fast enough shutter speed and low iso - you essentually shooting at 1/(whatever discharge speed is for your strobes), not just 1/125 or whatnot. So for good strobes you getting 1/1000 which is fairly well working handheld on most occasions , if you actually focused ok and aint doing diving/leaning when pushing button, after refocusing.

    Still will work same with P30+, unless you got some really bad glass.

    Also "sharpness" is somewhat "visual" judgement of contrast on edges. If you luck that contrast, even if actual focus and resolution is there - shot will look "soft". Add contrast - suddenly there is sharpness popping up.

    "Edge of Darkness" is great book on sharpness and details, btw

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    "Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."

    OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"

    Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?

    If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed you would recommend I risk I dropping my Contax 645 down to if I want to be fairly sure the eyes of the person will look not like porridge?

    By "acceptably sharp" I mean that if I print the image at 300dpi edges of eyes, hairs and contours of lips are more like lines than blobs.

    And to complicate matters even further, what is the minimum shutter speed you would suggest if the person is moving at a walking pace across the frame at a constant distance from the camera?

    Maybe like most others reading this even I can figure this out with film but have more trouble doing same with digital.

    The reason that I am asking is part of my ongoing quixotic quest to find out if I really should with practice be able to hand hold this beast with this MFDB that I have not managed to do so far or if I need to invest (which I really don't want to do) in a lower rez DSLR to take over when I want to go off tripod.

    Maybe a Louisville slugger could be a better solution.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    "Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."

    OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"

    Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?

    If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed I should drop my Contax 645 down to if I want to not take too great a risk that the eyes of the person will look like porridge?

    By "acceptably sharp" I mean that if I print the image at 300dpi edges of eyes, hairs and contours of lips are more like lines than blobs.

    And to complicate matters even further, what is the minimum shutter speed you would suggest if the person is moving at a walking pace across the frame at a constant distance from the camera?

    Maybe like most others reading this even I can figure this out with film but have more trouble doing same with digital.

    The reason that I am asking is to try and figure out if I really can hand hold this beast or if I need to invest (which I really don't want to do) in a lower rez DSLR to take over when I want to go off tripod.
    I'll try to get some figures to you with answers in the next day or so. I'll refrain from delving too deeply into the technical minutiae, as to keep it as accessible as possible. I'm sure Google could give me all of the information necessary, but if you could, please post the sensor dimensions, and the pixel dimensions of the images.
    --
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Wow that would be wonderful Gabe. Just happy somebody understands my question.

    You are right about google:

    eMotion75 Active sensor size. 48.0 x 36.0 mm; sensor resolution 6668x4992 pixels

    Output image size at 300dpi: 6621 x 4931 pixels with document size: 56.05cm x 41.75cm.

    If possible I prefer to print much larger that is fortunately quite doable with this MFDB that gives a clean image all the way up 100 zoom in Photoshop ("actual pixels"). Now try that with a 5MP point and shoot jpg.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    "Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."

    OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"

    Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?

    If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed you would recommend I risk I dropping my Contax 645 down to if I want to be fairly sure the eyes of the person will look not like porridge?
    Practice.

    There is no universal answer other than that. Some people have tremor and other people can put 3 bullets in same hole on the target from 200 paces.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Of course you are right Sergei but nobody can do that with a water pistol, so am trying to figure out the technical constraints of the technology before signing up for a body building program

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Of course you are right Sergei but nobody can do that with a water pistol, so am trying to figure out the technical constraints of the technology before signing up for a body building program
    1/(focal) is typical rule

    I.e with 80mm lens : 1/80 or faster. Format does not affect this

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    1/(focal) is typical rule

    I.e with 80mm lens : 1/80 or faster. Format does not affect this
    For medium format I've seen this as more like 1/(2 * focal length) if you want sharp images handheld.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    For medium format I've seen this as more like 1/(2 * focal length) if you want sharp images handheld.
    1/2*f is the typical rule-of-thumb. For MF, with 60Mp and beyond, I've noticed it to be more like 1/3*f for hand-held shooting.

    As far as the calculations, I've not had much time to sit down and do some thinking in this matter. In any case, you'll have a very high "keeper rate" with 1/3*f, but 1/2*f should get you by just fine for the most part.
    --
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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    "If you want to succeed, double your failure rate" - Thomas Watson


    Thanks,

    Looks like all I have to figure out is how to double my failure rate, as Sergei suggests, even though what he advises about focal length is not correct for MFDB otherwise I would be getting somewhat the same results as I do shooting film.

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    For medium format I've seen this as more like 1/(2 * focal length) if you want sharp images handheld.
    Well.. like i said - its very individual I dont think there is any real universal answer to this, b/c i some people do have surgeon hands and others could bloody hold cup of water steady

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    Re: Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

    Surgeons and water drinkers, how about photographers?

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