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Thread: My Reality

  1. #51
    Garcia
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    Re: My Reality

    Could you write Sharpening and Noise reduction values for this picture, Jack ?

    I'd like to replicate noise level on similar picture taken with aptus12 at ISO 50 .

  2. #52
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Well I did find one wart last night. If you over-sharpen and add clarity to an ISO 35 file and peer deep into the lowest levels of the image with your monitor brightness cranked up, you get visible NOISE! Of course you also get image detail in that noise where my P65+ would have only given me black LOLOLOLOL!!!

    ...

    To save you all the trouble of adjusting your monitor, here is a crop of the same image without the added clarity and sharpening, but exposure bumped to C1's 2.5 stop max. Note the noise is there, but for all intents and purposes, trivial even at this extreme shadow push:



    Guy, does this help you feel better about passing on it?

    ,
    Jack, you are killing me!! That doesn't help, I was almost set on passing on the upgrade... ehm... almost, and seeing that shadow detail just pushed me back into wanting one real bad!

    Plus I am rethinking all my equipment setup, so serious decisions will have to be made shortly...

    Thanks for the sample, it seriously looks scary!
    Last edited by vieri; 12th May 2011 at 08:26.
    Vieri Bottazzini
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  3. #53
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post


    To save you all the trouble of adjusting your monitor, here is a similar crop from the same file reprocessed in C1 with exposure bumped to C1's 2.5 stop max, but without the added clarity and sharpening. Note the noise is there, but for all intents and purposes it is trivial even at this extreme shadow push:


    Guy, does this help you feel better about passing on it?

    ,
    Dang! It even retained the color of the lettering! Why do I feel like I've now seen the holy grail?

  4. #54
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Garcia View Post
    Could you write Sharpening and Noise reduction values for this picture, Jack ?

    I'd like to replicate noise level on similar picture taken with aptus12 at ISO 50 .
    So the original properly exposed version was processed normally in C1 then I ran my web sharpening and local contrast routines in Photoshop prior to rendering the downsized jpeg -- it's too complicated to share those settings as they use CS's advanced sharpening routine, but it is basically a detail extraction routine and why it enhances noise wherever present. Normally I'd mask it out, but left it here just to make the extreme point about how clean this file is. My local contrast routine for web jpegs is high-radius (50) low percent (10%) USM in CS.
    Jack
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  5. #55
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Mark, Vieri --

    I can assure you I am blown away myself, and I've only just begun exploring this new tool! What is clear already is that we have some seriously increased file capabilities...
    Jack
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  6. #56
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    I have it in my hand right now. Blown away. Don is Blown away.

    Already shot on Arca RM2D and Cambo. New 28mm and new 43mm lenses on the Arca
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  7. #57
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Mark, Vieri --

    I can assure you I am blown away myself, and I've only just begun exploring this new tool! What is clear already is that we have some seriously increased file capabilities...
    Indeed we do! A question Jack, I am wondering if the current Phase lenses are really able to deliver enough detail to the back's 80 MP, do you have an opinion already - or at least a feeling about it? I know you had the back for too short a time, just wondering what your first impressions are... It'd be even more interesting if someone could test it on a tech camera with Rode & Schneider glass...

    I think with such high res backs, lenses are already or will be soon the weak link in the chain: like, no need to get more MP, you lens will deliver much less detail anyway; new backs and eventually even more MP will impact on other aspects of IQ, not just detail...
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  8. #58
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I have it in my hand right now. Blown away. Don is Blown away.
    ...Guy, that doesn't help either, especially coming after seeing Jack's sample above...
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  9. #59
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    Re: My Reality

    RM3d on left Rm2D on right shot with Iphone

    The RM2D is a 10 on the sexy scale
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #60
    Garcia
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So the original properly exposed version was processed normally in C1 ...
    Thanks Jack. This is all I wanted to know. No matter what unsharp mask routines I run in Photoshop after raw processed , there is a big difference in noise from using default unsharp mask and noise reduction settings in C1 or zeroing them.

  11. #61
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by mvirtue View Post
    Dang! It even retained the color of the lettering! Why do I feel like I've now seen the holy grail?
    Hate to tell but you did. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  12. #62
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    RM3d on left Rm2D on right shot with Iphone

    The RM2D is a 10 on the sexy scale
    I'm sitting right next to the US Arca Swiss Rep we shot the new 28mm and 43mm lenses this morning on the IQ180 together
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  13. #63
    Garcia
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    Re: My Reality

    Really sexy indeed.

    My heart is split in two by Rm3di and Artec, been Alpa STC the third in discord.

  14. #64
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    Re: My Reality

    Hey Guy, can you find out when the D4 will be shipping?

  15. #65
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Word is they are in assembly now and shipping HOPEFULLY this week. That is the word Rod is getting right now. Many backorders on them so look like a very popular item. Looks like good news
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  16. #66
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    Re: My Reality

    That would be great news Guy. I've not seem them advertised anywhere yet.

  17. #67
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    Re: My Reality

    Any full review on the IQ 180 ? In term of sharpness, 3D, contrast etc compare to P65+?

    Thanks

  18. #68
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Indeed we do! A question Jack, I am wondering if the current Phase lenses are really able to deliver enough detail to the back's 80 MP, do you have an opinion already - or at least a feeling about it?
    From what I've seen, the best Phase lenses are more than up to the task. I've heard (cannot confirm) that Phase engineers have tested them, and feel the limit will be when pixel pitch gets down to where FF MF is around 110MP. So yes, we are pretty close to that limit now at 80MP.

    Moreover, what you do see is less DoF when you look at 100% view. IOW, the smaller pixels at 100% view (a defacto smaller CoC) show the OOF regions sooner than fatter pixels.
    Jack
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  19. #69
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Any full review on the IQ 180 ? In term of sharpness, 3D, contrast etc compare to P65+?

    Thanks
    It's coming in a few days -- watch for it. I can tell you though, that while there is a gain in all of those facets of the file, it is relative small --- call it about the same delta on those same traits when we moved from the P45+ to the P65+. IOW the differences are there and visible to those that know what to look for, but the average Joe may not see what you do.

    FWIW, macro contrast is actually lower since DR is higher -- you have to get in the habit of adding black to most outdoor images! Micro-contrast is a tougher call -- the detail is still in the smaller individual pixels, so theoretically it's there. But the gains here are getting small enough my gut says it may not render in a print --- won't know until I print though!!!
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  20. #70
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Mark, Vieri --

    I can assure you I am blown away myself, and I've only just begun exploring this new tool! What is clear already is that we have some seriously increased file capabilities...
    LALALALALALA!!!!! I can't hear you. LALALALALA!!!!!


    On an ROI basis I could never justify it. But I am drooling and will have to live vicariously through others till this generation of back makes it to the refurb/used market.

  21. #71
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    From what I've seen, the best Phase lenses are more than up to the task. I've heard (cannot confirm) that Phase engineers have tested them, and feel the limit will be when pixel pitch gets down to where FF MF is around 110MP. So yes, we are pretty close to that limit now at 80MP.

    Moreover, what you do see is less DoF when you look at 100% view. IOW, the smaller pixels at 100% view (a defacto smaller CoC) show the OOF regions sooner than fatter pixels.
    Thanks Jack, that's great to know - so, I guess it's safe to assume that at least all the newer, digital Rodenstock & Schneider for tech cameras will be up to the task as well

    Good catch on the DoF, Jack - makes sense.

    ...I am getting closer to go to the bank on this one! Like I didn't already know that...
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  22. #72
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Decided it's a IQ at least the 140. If I can dithering 160 I would be all that much better but I will continue to deal with the crop if I have too. I shoot a model tonight so the real proof will be shooting live.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here is the other bottom line. Today and for the last year or so owning the P40+ i have never missed shots because the back did not give me the data I needed to start with. I have always nailed every situation and shoot. Its not like I absolutely need the tech at all, i'm to damn good a photographer to start with and no tech is REALLY going to help me. I say that in all honesty not modesty
    Guy, while I am not in the same league as you I do agree that, for me, the data I get from the current backs has not kept me from capturing images. However, if the new tech provides a much improved screen that would be a HUGE plus because I find I am often fighting with the LCD screen, especially in daylight. I do not make decisions from what I see visually (the image) on the screen but mostly from the data (histo, etc.). It would be nice if I could confirm what I see on the screen with the data. So, in that regard the new tech would be great.

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    Re: My Reality

    so, Jack, when you print, won't that be the dynamic range limiting factor? as it always was for B/W darkroom work.

    be interesting to see how that works out

  25. #75
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    Re: My Reality

    The two words of the day. Focus mask
    It's that good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  26. #76
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Guy, while I am not in the same league as you I do agree that, for me, the data I get from the current backs has not kept me from capturing images. However, if the new tech provides a much improved screen that would be a HUGE plus because I find I am often fighting with the LCD screen, especially in daylight. I do not make decisions from what I see visually (the image) on the screen but mostly from the data (histo, etc.). It would be nice if I could confirm what I see on the screen with the data. So, in that regard the new tech would be great.
    The key here is confirming everything is accurate on screen. That's where the beauty lies.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  27. #77
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Yesterday I even had a hard time shooting at f6.3 with a 110mm eventethered since the model was holding a radio that was the focus point and working fast even tethered I would miss because it was slow to confirm all the time while I was shooting. The focus mask would tell me right the camera without going to computer. So without a tech monitoring what I was doing on hand it was difficult. But with focus mask I can tell right from where i am with focus mask. Now it takes a few seconds but maybe with the smaller backs faster. Also with firmware it will get even faster but it really is not slow so don't misunderstand me. I have zero patience too. Also Ian going to move to faster Cf cards like the extreme pros. I have extremes in the 180 today
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  28. #78
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    Re: My Reality

    iPhone sorry for mispells
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  29. #79
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm sitting right next to the US Arca Swiss Rep we shot the new 28mm and 43mm lenses this morning on the IQ180 together
    You can tell Rod that the Rm2D is my favourite walkabout Camera, but only if it's got an Aptus-II 12 attached to it:-)

    A small selection from my "Berlin in 5 hours" tour today...

    Note that NO LCC was required (can't tell you why...just yet...)

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    Re: My Reality

    Guy -
    Not to give you a totally cold shower but I thought we had a whole thread on getting a the focus screen etched to create a mask for the crop factor on the "40" backs. Surely this is a lot cheaper than the other alternatives.....
    Last edited by Terry; 12th May 2011 at 17:41.

  31. #81
    Subscriber Member kit laughlin's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    That's it: I'm not getting one! (referring to the "shadow noise" in Jack's image!)

    LOL!!!

    That's incredible.

    Guy, what's the approximate difference in price between the 160 and the 180? The 160 does seem like the more practical alternative.

    Cheers and good luck.
    Last edited by kit laughlin; 12th May 2011 at 17:25.

  32. #82
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    Re: My Reality

    Since Guy has already rated me out I figure I'll add a few comments.

    I never felt a crop using the P45+ until this morning. Using my Cambo WRS I shot a couple sample images first with my P45+ then switched to the IQ180. (That was early this morning and I haven't see the IQ since as Guy keeps it cradled in his lap since then).

    The physical size difference of the LCD is great as is the image quality. As Guy has already mention the focus mask is worth the price of admission.

    This back is friking assume!


    Don
    Last edited by Don Libby; 12th May 2011 at 14:51.
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  33. #83
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    Re: My Reality

    There is a 7k difference between the 160 vs 180
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Note that NO LCC was required (can't tell you why...just yet...)
    Forget the IQ backs for a tick, that does sound interesting!

    Care to explain a little more of this bomb shell you just dropped Yair?

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    This back is friking assume!
    Now I'm glad that a schedule conflict prevented me from making it to the seminar today, as this means I won't have to fight the temptation to order one ... just yet, anyway. <sigh>

  36. #86
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    so, Jack, when you print, won't that be the dynamic range limiting factor? as it always was for B/W darkroom work.

    be interesting to see how that works out
    Certainly getting it ALL into a print at the same time can be a challenge John! The reality is we're not talking a huge amount more DR over what we had in the P65+, maybe another 1/2 stop (guesstimating), so the processing isn't that much more intensive. What is different is how often you need to add black to get the look you want, or at least the look you are used to! More to the point, the tools in C1 allow you to hold back highlights while pumping shadows pretty darn well if that's what you want to do, and the new files just give us a little more data to work with there.
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  37. #87
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    iPhone sorry for mispells

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This is just too ****ing logical and scaring me. Back to dreaming. LOL

    Taking donations for a shrink.
    Stop A8sing around Guy - you know the 180 is the right answer, and it won't be cheaper to do an intermediate upgrade. Just go the whole hog, bite the bullet, Faint heart and all that - it's the 180 for you, I can feel it in my water

    all the very best

    Just this guy you know

  38. #88
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    Re: My Reality

    Guy, if money's a bit tight, go with the 160—I assume there will be an upgrade path from the 160 if you decided you had to have it. The 160 is FF, has the new screen and interface, just a few less pixels.

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hmmm,
    I am about 20% considering whether to cancel my 180 and get out of MF altogether, at which point I'll be selling the p65+ at a very good price if to someone I know and trust (that's you, Guy!) and also a DF body, Phase 80 and 28mm lenses and Schneider 110 ls, cambo wide rs with Schneider 35 xl.

    The only thing I'd keep is the cube...

    Hmmmm...
    So, Tim, what are you going to ask for your place in line?

    Victor

  40. #90
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    There is a 7k difference between the 160 vs 180
    to put in context; for that difference you can get an M9!

  41. #91
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    Re: My Reality

    Nice one, Victor!

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    There is a 7k difference between the 160 vs 180
    Sort of.....you can apply the trade in discount to it...so the real difference from a P40+ to the 160 vs 180 is $4200.

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    Re: My Reality

    is that the real number? Not what I was quoted....

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    Re: My Reality

    The listed prices are $36990 for the 160, and $43990 for the 180.

    These prices would be reduced if, for example, a P40+ were traded in.

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    Re: My Reality

    I have a p40+, and those are not the numbers I was quoted...if they were I would have given it far more consideration...

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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Goetz View Post
    I have a p40+, and those are not the numbers I was quoted...if they were I would have given it far more consideration...
    Call your dealer and ask the questions.

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    Re: My Reality

    Trading in a P40+ gives you a 40% discount:

    IQ180: $43990*0.6 = $26394
    IQ160: $36990*0.6 = $22194
    ---------------------------------
    Difference = $4200

    Cheers, -Peter

  48. #98
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
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    Re: My Reality

    I'm guessing it's not so much the difference in price between the IQ180 & IQ160 that is the big hurdle but the difference in price between the IQ140 ($21,990) or a used P65+ and the IQ160/IQ180 backs. With a trade-in of a P40+ going to a IQ160 or IQ180 would be significantly more money than getting an IQ140 or used P65+.

  49. #99
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    Re: My Reality

    Yes, a lateral move does not make any sense (money wise):

    IQ140: $21990*0.6 = $13194

    Guy could sell his P40+ privately (~$12K) and buy the IQ140 outright for ~$22K (minus the discount his dealer will undoubtedly give him). And will probably be out less than $10K. But the lateral move of the P40+ to IQ140 is not priced right by Phase, IMHO.

    Cheers, -Peter

  50. #100
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: My Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Forget the IQ backs for a tick, that does sound interesting!

    Care to explain a little more of this bomb shell you just dropped Yair?
    No not yet, but soon, very soon
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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