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Thread: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Another interesting point, with the 19mm Schneider corrected image most of the colour has been removed from the top part of the image. Note the red bands around the top of the tower are now virtually B&W.

    Wonder how this would have effected colour with a rise/fall towards the trees?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Thanks Chris for the report. I own mostly Roden lens, including the 40, 70 & 90. Im currently using a P45+ was very keen on going for the IQ180. With your result and the fact that I use quite a bit of shift, do you think I should get IQ160 instead? 180 may give me more resolution and dynamic range, but I'm wondering if LCC will completely remove the cast with at least some level of deterioration on image quality.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I really don't Know. I would lie, if I said I haven't considered if the IQ160 would be a much better choice for my type of shooting. I can say one thing for sure. With the IQ180 it won't be possible to just shift a bit more and than just crop of some of the stuff in post. One probably has to be a lot more carful on how much stitching is possible. As Michael said, 10 could be the max with a lot of lenses.

    For me the most worrying part is the uneven color between shifted and unshifted images. However, I will do some more shooting today and discuss it with phase one, if I got a bad back or if this behavior is normal with the iq180. I can say for sure that with my p65 I never had such a big color shift that I noticed it without looking at actual RGB numbers. I'm talking about CORRECTED files after LCC.

  4. #54
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    IMO centerfold artifact is because CCD is actually eight ccd stitched together.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Does anyone have any info about the new Schneider 60mm? I had cancelled my order for this lens when I bumped up to the IQ180 but I'm now wondering how much shift you could get from this lens without uncorrectable color issues.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I heard from a very reliable source that the colour cast issues and banding is a particular problem with the 80mp backs. This was expressed to me a couple of weeks back when the IQ demos and first dealer drop backs arrived and were tested. A concern for tech shooters with Schneider certainly.
    I am shooting every now and then with 22mp (A54s) on back of sliding adapter on 4x5 tech camera (turns into about 6x12) , and i cant really see any issues between Rodenstock and Schneiders (i got one Rodenstock lens and plenty of Schneiders). So may be it is indeed about higher res stuff. But then i am using pretty much sweet center spot, i guess.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Christopher,

    Now that I get to read your post on a real screen rather than my iPhone while driving I can only say again - thanks.

    I need to step back for a minute and talk about a few basics here, because it strikes me that some of the parts of the background to this discussion are not stated within this thread.

    The size of the pixel on digital backs has dropped from 12 micron squares, to 9 microns, then 6.8 microns, then 6 microns, and now 5.2 microns. As the size of the pixel decreases the issues generated by light which enters the pixel at a strong angle increase.

    All digital backs show some color cast when light hits the sensor at a strong enough angle. The only question is how strong the angle has to be before the color cast is generated, and, how strong the color cast is. Note that often the color cast is minor enough that you don't notice it until it's corrected (this is true even with some dSLRs and cameras like the m9).

    Generally speaking the wider the angle of the lens the stronger the angle is. However a lens designer can use a moderate retrofocus design to pull the center of the lens away from the sensor, and therefore reduce the angle of light hitting the sensor. This is the benefit of retrofocus design. The negatives of retrofocus design are: increased weight, increased size, increased cost, and increased lens distortion. Rodenstock has generally chosen to use retrofocus designs in such cases where Schneider has generally chosen not to use retrofocus designs.

    So far in the evolution of backs the increased color cast has, in my opinion, had minimal impact on the real world use of any of these lenses*, because while the cast was stronger with small micron backs, the cast was fully removable by the LCC process in Capture One (or "Gain" file in Leaf Capture). Hence my comments about the importance of only comparing corrected files - if the files are fully correctable it doesn't matter to me how they look uncorrected. HOWEVER, it seems that for some of the wider glass in the Schneider line there is color cast which is not fully correctable for IQ180 files in areas of the image circle which would be fully correctable in the IQ160 files.

    We, Capture Integration, did testing with the Aptus-II 12 with a Schneider 35mm XL lens to test the fix in Capture One 6.2 for wide-angle tech cameras banding. We were concerned by the concern around the issue of banding (or "waviness") with such wide angle lenses on such small micron backs. Our test was done against a white wall to ensure I could see and measure even slight color casts easy. We were given a beta by Phase One which included the new anti-banding math and were pleasantly surprised at how effectively the banding was removed without significant loss of texture/detail on the wall. In addition the wall was properly rendered as white and I could measure no residual color cast.

    I now realize there was a flaw in the above (very well intended and well thought through, but none the less imperfect) test. The subject matter was white. With a minor or even moderate color cast there is very little difficulty (because of the bit depth and quality of the file) in determining the actual color of the original subject matter. However it makes logical sense that if the color cast is severe enough it can be difficult to reconstruct the subject's true color. This appears to be the case with Christopher's tests with the blue sky which is under-saturated in the LCC corrected final image.

    This topic bears further testing which we will rush to the top of the queue of things we wanted to test. Specifically, we will want to illustrate how much of the image circle would you be giving up by using an IQ180 vs. an IQ160 with these wider angle Schneider lenses.

    *the 24XL became not-recommended after the P65+ but that's because it's image circle isn't enough to cover a full-frame sensor.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Further quick thoughts:
    - Christopher: you're back (or the firmware on it) is screwed up. Corrupted CF card image writing and centerfold lines are 100% unacceptable on a Phase One product. I'm sure your dealer will want to replace or otherwise rectify the situation ASAP. I repeat: it is not ok, it is not a sign of normal IQ operation. While it's unfortunate that your first experience out-of-the-box with this new back included these problems, it is not a thing you have to live with.

    It bears noting here for other users that Phase does a lot of in-house testing using a variety SanDisk Extreme ("Extreme IV", "Extreme Pro", "Extreme") CF cards and that the middle-end of capacity of the current line is the most likely to be tested the most (i.e. the absolute largest capacity card at any given time has not been out long enough, and is often excessively expensive to source upon initial availability, to test as much as the cards directly below it in capacity).

    Given that Christopher was using several cards which also worked in his P65+ and assuming he formatted them in the IQ before each use, there is very little doubt that the problem is the back and not the card.

    However, we do have other customers that try to get along with cheap/generic cards with their high-end backs and that is something I do not suggest. You do not need the fastest or largest cards made (though you may want the fastest you can afford if using the IQ concerning read/write/buffer/access/zoom times**), but buying from the higher-end segment of either SanDisk or Lexar is my strong suggestion.

    **There will be a firmware update in June to enable the latest CF UDMA specs to take advantage of the new crazy-fast cards available.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I already have bought 3 Sandisk Extreme pros in preparation for the new IQ back
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Doug,

    I very much appreciate your approach to all this, you are an invaluable resource to your own customers but also to those of us who don't live in the US and need a Phase friendly but not Phase biased opinion.

    I for one am extremely interested to hear about the Schneider 35XL on the IQ180 because that is the lens I use 50% of the time on my P65+ and is in fact the only lens I use on my Cambo Wide RS. I haven't taken delivery of my IQ180 yet but I am increasingly feeling that if, in solving certain problems (bad LCD, poor ability to judge critical focus untethered) it introduces new problems (lens casts that can't be fully dealt with) then I either won't bother, or will do the upgrade and then sell the lot.

    That's a very personal decision but love the file quality though I do, I just don't use the kit enough as it is to justify both a back upgrade and an expensive reshuffle of glass!

    Thanks again Doug

    Tim

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Doug, I find that CCC image areas can look "strained" somehow, even when no visible cast remains. Something is going on there as a result of proprietary processing but never mind. As you say, if it works to our eyes it's fine and if it bothers me pick another platform.

    However, I am about to take delivery of an IQ180, and I do shift with lenses in the 40-135mm range. Christopher's data generate some concern. Sure I can make my own informal tests but what a chore, and I am sure both CI and Christopher have other things to do.

    The excellent engineers at Phase must have already compared the casts from 60 and 80 mp chips. No need to report proprietary software functions, just results.

    This is not a dealer issue. It is certainly not a user issue. White paper time.

    Peter

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    This is not a dealer issue. It is certainly not a user issue. White paper time.
    Peter
    This is in fact a dealer issue.

    We will do the test.

    Are your lenses Schneiders or Rodenstocks?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Wow this has me a bit nervous. I have been contemplating an Aptus 2 12r for my flexbody. I planned to use my 40mm CFE extensively.

    Is this only a problem with a view camera wide lens?

    I would really be pissed if I paid out the big bucks for a seriously hindered setup.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Plateau Light View Post
    Wow this has me a bit nervous. I have been contemplating an Aptus 2 12r for my flexbody. I planned to use my 40mm CFE extensively.

    Is this only a problem with a view camera wide lens?

    I would really be pissed if I paid out the big bucks for a seriously hindered setup.
    The 40mm CFE is a retrofocal lens and as such it won't present any real issue since its exit pupil sits farther away from the sensor

    Its image circle is quite small so it won't allow large shifts anyway. You may still experience a small amount of colour shift that can be easily corrected pre or post shoot

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Yair

    Thank you. FWIW it is mostly the tilt that I am interested in and I have been using rear tilt for years so I can keep the 5x7 within the circle of my 4x5 lens', so the rear tilt of the Flexbody has great appeal to me as long as the lens can resolve enough.

    Thanks again

    Robert

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    This is in fact a dealer issue.

    We will do the test.

    Are your lenses Schneiders or Rodenstocks?
    Phase is fortunate in having you as a dealer. Thanks for taking on the load. I believe you can calm this whole kaffufle (Canadian - eh?) right down once the mystery is gone.

    My lenses are Rodenstocks 40, 70, 90 HRW and 135 ApoSironar. With the 90, I shift up to 15mm on a 50MP chip and the CCC in Phocus works acceptably. The other fls also work at 10-15mm, if a bit less well. Actually I tilt more often than I shift, and sometime combine both.

    My test suggestions: Make two sets of images. One of a highly diffuse light source and another of open landscape with cloudy sky at near clipping.

    Uncorrected and CCC images at 3 degrees of tilt.
    Uncorrected and CCC images at 10mm of shift.
    Show that an unmoved wide lens such as the Rodie 32HR does not require CCC.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    [...]
    My lenses are Rodenstocks 40, 70, 90 HRW and 135 ApoSironar.
    [...]
    Show that an unmoved wide lens such as the Rodie 32HR does not require CCC.
    Given your lenses this thread shouldn't really bother you. The Rodenstock glass uses a different design (as explained above) which are heavier, larger, more expensive, and more prone to distortion than the Schneider XL equivalents, but do not have a very strong angle of light.

    This thread is about exploring the extent and real world impact of an issue related to Schneider's lenses stronger angle of light.

    And I'm afraid I recommend CCC (or LCC in C1 parlance) for 32HR and 40HR even straight-on regardless of the digital back used. Even if the color cast is hard to see in an uncorrected file it's often the case you can appreciate what the CCC/LCC are doing only after applying it. So I've never agreed with statements like "X lens on Y back doesn't require an LCC" - if it's on a tech camera and is shorter than 70 I'm in favor of using an LCC even if you don't think you need to. In the case of Capture One this also means dust will be removed.

    Our plan is actually to do a multi-image stitch to the edge of the image circle with both back so you can fully visualize what % of the image circle is usable for each back, and what it looks like when you're getting towards the edge of the image circle. I don't think we'll add tilt in as it adds an entire variable much harder to visually illustrate but I'm sure your dealer can help you with the relevant math to translate a tilt into the corresponding amount of shift at the sensor-edge as regards the angle of incident light.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Hi Doug,

    If every shot requires a LCC, even the straight on ones, In your opinion can these be done in the studio for every given aperture/lens etc and then kept as a LCC library. And then called upon when needed. Or are you saying that we need to take a LCC every time we set-up a new composition.

    Rikki.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Doug, I will risk jumping the gun and speculate (based on this thread and conversations with other photographers) that in the post-80MP world we now have two choices facing us with respect to tech cameras and wide lenses:
    1. For maximum useable shifts/tilts – Schneider Apo Digitar XL lenses with 60MP (or lower) sensors.
    2. For maximum resolution – 80MP sensors with Rodenstock HR-W/HR-S lenses.

    TANSTAAFL (Robert Heinlein).

    EDIT: The above is admittedly simplistic, but I suspect it's a good summary of where we are currently at with our tools. I won't even go into the trade-offs with distortion / centre filters / physical size / cost / advertised MTF / colour rendition / etc etc etc.
    Last edited by cng; 24th May 2011 at 05:41.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Given your lenses this thread shouldn't really bother you. The Rodenstock glass uses a different design (as explained above) which are heavier, larger, more expensive, and more prone to distortion than the Schneider XL equivalents, but do not have a very strong angle of light.

    This thread is about exploring the extent and real world impact of an issue related to Schneider's lenses stronger angle of light.

    And I'm afraid I recommend CCC (or LCC in C1 parlance) for 32HR and 40HR even straight-on regardless of the digital back used. Even if the color cast is hard to see in an uncorrected file it's often the case you can appreciate what the CCC/LCC are doing only after applying it.

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    Doug, thanks for the informative answer. As I mentioned, I find that the effects of cast correction can be noticeable (changes in contrast and loss of sensitivity) on some subjects, even with the wider Rodenstock lenses. I have no experience with Schneiders.

    Cast corrections are complex - my company wrote some - even in monochrome. Similarly, creating tests that are representative (as opposed to situation-specific) is tricky. Detector engineers have instruments that can project test images directly onto the CCD, which makes the whole process much easier and more precise. However, your proposed test will be very useful and I look forward to the results.

    Beyond that, I'll know in the first day if the system pleases my eye and that's where the real test will be.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by rpb View Post
    If every shot requires a LCC, even the straight on ones, In your opinion can these be done in the studio for every given aperture/lens etc and then kept as a LCC library. And then called upon when needed. Or are you saying that we need to take a LCC every time we set-up a new composition.
    Either way is fine. The primary benefit of doing it at the time is that dust can also be removed. The primary benefit of doing it as a one-time library is less work.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    While I don't have an IQ180 I have just recently made the move to a P65+ and have been using a tech camera as my primary landscape camera for a number of years.

    When I first started using a tech camera I took the time to shoot a LCC library using all my lenses and every conceivable combination of movements. This work well for awhile. Then dust entered the picture (no pun intended). Lets face it, you're shooting landscapes outside and occasionally switching lenses outside. Outside can be and is a very windy, dusty, dirty place, at least where I shoot. The ability to shoot a LCC for dual purposes means even that much more to me as I can now use C1 to clear most if not all the dust that clings to the lens and sometimes the back.

    I still have my library of P45+ LCCs however I've decided not to repeat the process with the P65+ The way I figure it is that I'll shoot a LCC prior to each image (I've been doing this for awhile now with the P45+). If I forget it's not the end of the world as I can always shoot one later so long as I remember all the details of the shot (lens & movement(s)).

    I thought the same as Doug regarding the library being less work however it really isn't in the long run. Just thin how easy it is to remove dust in C1.

    Just my 2 worth here...

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    The other advantage of shooting the LCC with each shot, or at least with each set up, is that you don't necessarily need to remember or record the exact aperture/shift settings for the particular image.

    For unshifted shots it's simple - shoot an LCC at the beginning/end of a sequence. With shifts I tend to shoot a blank marker frame and then a sequence left to right followed by the same sequence of LCC frames for that same setup. You only need to shoot that LCC once obviously even if you have multiple takes of the same shots.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Thank you for all your replies. much appreciated.
    The main reason for me asking is that I have heard elsewhere that the light entering the lens (angle of the sun, etc) also effects the lens cast and that's another reason for shooting a LCC for every image. If this is true, in some situations where time is tight and exposure are long (sunset architecture etc) shooting a LCC for every image could be a major issue. Sorry for going off topic, Its just you hear so many different theory's on the best way to use LCC's.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    However, we do have other customers that try to get along with cheap/generic cards with their high-end backs and that is something I do not suggest. You do not need the fastest or largest cards made (though you may want the fastest you can afford if using the IQ concerning read/write/buffer/access/zoom times**), but buying from the higher-end segment of either SanDisk or Lexar is my strong suggestion.

    **There will be a firmware update in June to enable the latest CF UDMA specs to take advantage of the new crazy-fast cards available.

    Doug Peterson
    Doug I agree with all of your points regarding LCC and tech view/camera use but with regard to "cheap CF cards" we part ways.

    I use both high end and commodity CF cards and after 12 TB of shooting have never had a CF card failure. Most of the failures I have heard of relate more to formatting either in the computer or across systems rather than the card itself. I shoot Phase One and Canon 1ds systems, always format in the camera, use my cards in either system and am careful to format at the start of each shoot.

    The temptation is great to believe that more expensive cards are somehow better but I have not seen it in practical use.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Until it fails. Consider yourself lucky to be really honest. I have been shooting digital for 21 years full time( since day one almost) and i have seen nightmares out there with cards and card readers getting corrupted files. Been through every system out there and everyone of them at some point had at least 1 image failure if not many or whole cards go bad. For the money sorry this is a bad plan and a risk i will never take with clients. I don't even mix cards between systems. Paranoid you bet.

    These are risks not worth taking IMHO
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I agree with Doug and Guy on this. I use nothing but SanDisk cards on all 3-cameras. I'd rather pay a little extra for peace of mind plus when you stop and think about the cost of a card is so small compared to the cost of the camera or for that matter the cost of getting the shot. I just paid $130 for a new 16GB SanDisk Extreme Pro and didn't bat an eye.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Bought three of them Don this week same thing. No wonder B&H is out of stock now. LOL

    Those three will be dedicated to the Phase and my 2 Extremes will got to the Sony when my IQ 160 comes in.

    Now folks this is me and please do not take it not to do whatever you want. Its a recommendation and as a Pro , Instructor, Consultant.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bought three of them Don this week same thing. No wonder B&H is out of stock now. LOL

    Those three will be dedicated to the Phase and my 2 Extremes will got to the Sony when my IQ 160 comes in.

    Now folks this is me and please do not take it not to do whatever you want. Its a recommendation and as a Pro , Instructor, Consultant.
    What Guy said.

    Just for kicks and giggles think of it this way (at least I did) - P65+ $24000 cost of 16gb card $130. The card turns out to be .0054166 the cost of the P65+.

    What's your peace of mind worth?

    Don

    I'm kicking myself now for not picking up 2 - now I have to wait until they come back in stock ...
    Last edited by Don Libby; 25th May 2011 at 06:36. Reason: kicking
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  30. #80
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    BTW folks and not joking be really careful where you buy cards from. I have bought fakes before on e-bay and its a real problem out there. Buy from a reputable place. Here I highly recommend B&H or a good dealer.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  31. #81
    jeffacme
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Guy, Don,

    How many failures have you had with any CF card?

    Believe me I used to buy only high end cards but started cautiously in with reputable commodity cards several years ago. Mainly for the increase in speed and size.

    I use a color coded rolling system, 3 cards per camera, so the digital tech can backup and keep track of each camera and the sequence of cards. That way any issue which could happen to a single card is minimized. When card "A" is full for a particular camera we format card "D" and put card A aside images intact. I have enough cards to shoot for a solid week so at the end we have all images on the cards as shot and redundant computer backups.

    That's my system and has worked well for me but to each his own.

  32. #82
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    At least a dozen on many different systems. Like I said you have been lucky. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #83
    jeffacme
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Wow that's allot of card failures. All on high end cards?

    Luck really has no bearing on it with the system I use at worst I would have to redo a half hour of shooting and would still be at the job to do so.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Little bit of both. Mostly a lot of frames but did throw a couple cards out and readers too which is strange. I know rare but it can happen.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  35. #85
    jeffacme
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Yes readers for sure but I have always been able to recover files that were still on the card. I am not saying do not buy expensive cards just that in my experience there is no added benefit.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    42,000 exposures on P65+ ALL on two 32Gb PhotoFast cards, each costing $129.
    No dropped shots, ever.

    Yes it doesn't say 'Sandisk' on it, but they work perfectly + were much cheaper and faster than Sandisk when I bought them. ($129 vs $375 each) Sandisk have come down in price since then, but I'd get another Photofast, from experience.

    See MR's review on LuLa:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...hotofast.shtml
    or Rob Galbraith's one:
    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...=7-10043-10255

  37. #87
    Optechs Digital
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Another way to look at it,

    How many CF card manufacturers exist in the world compared to how many CF brands exist.....

    P

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I'm thinking could be a thread all by it self - a dicussion on cards pros and cons.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'm thinking could be a thread all by it self - a dicussion on cards pros and cons.
    Probably right. I'll throw my oddity in here. I'm not a very prolific shooter, shooting far fewer frames when out than many. I never use a CF card more than once. They are all labeled and locked away in a very save place (water proof containers locked in a fireproof safe located in a cement fruit room). I sort of treat them like negatives.

    Since I really don't need speed, I'm always using cards a few generations old, usually 8gig in size, so they really aren't that expensive. The current sweet spot seems to be 8gig cards which can be found for $25-$30. I really don't want too many images on a single card ... sort of a putting all my eggs in one basket thing, so I prefer 4 or 8gig cards.

    I know this won't work for many because they shoot way more frames than I do, and maybe I'm crazy, but I have every original raw file I've taken in the last two years in a very small space that could survive nearly any disaster. If I were still a wedding or portrait shooter (I've been retired for a few years), I wouldn't do this ... only for my personal landscape work.

    My main rationalization for this is CF cards seem to be the most archival medium out there. If it formats successfully and stores data successfully, there isn't anything to wear out (like hard drives) or fade (like dye's on recordable DVD's). I have nothing to back this up, other than some research showing that the only thing that there is no reason a CF card sitting for years in a protected environment would degrade at all ... just nothing to degrade.

    Of course, the IQ180 may force me to change my perspective as the files are bigger, meaning I may need more speed and space.
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  40. #90
    jeffacme
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Wayne,

    Your system is exactly what I suggest for friends and family who are shooting for their pleasure or as a hobby. I think it is a great approach as a failsafe backup.

    Totally portable and as long as card readers exist you should have a working archive. I have seen dvd backups fail in as little as two years.

    So it makes sense to me.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    My main rationalization for this is CF cards seem to be the most archival medium out there. If it formats successfully and stores data successfully, there isn't anything to wear out (like hard drives) or fade (like dye's on recordable DVD's). I have nothing to back this up, other than some research showing that the only thing that there is no reason a CF card sitting for years in a protected environment would degrade at all ... just nothing to degrade.
    We're going WAY off-topic now, but are CF cards prone to data "evaporation", similar to hard drives that aren't fired up regularly?

  42. #92
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    if it's on a tech camera and is shorter than 70 I'm in favor of using an LCC even if you don't think you need to.

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    Even the digitar 72XL benefits from an LCC especially when using the full image circle. Not as much for color cast as for light falloff.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Even the digitar 72XL benefits from an LCC especially when using the full image circle. Not as much for color cast as for light falloff.
    Ed - Have you shot anything with the 72 on the IQ back yet? Not sure if your comment is from P65+ or IQ180.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I decided a long time ago to shoot a LCC for each lens I have as cheap insurance and will continue to with the P65. But that me, a belt and suspenders type guy...
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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Let's get back to the basic theme of this thread, which I've been thinking about for some time now - and I've managed to do a few experiments (albeit poorly controlled experiments) in the past few days.

    Many of the people following this thread are landscape shooters seeking to make perfect landscape images in the tradition of the "f64" school of large format photographers, making very large prints and expecting perfection edge to edge and corner to corner. From a technical standpoint the gear chosen has to deliver an A+; technical perfection is a key to the aesthetic; "acceptable" is not acceptable in this context.

    Another basic question to understand is why does a digital shooter care about shifts? It's to avoid having to make major perspective changes in post (C1, LR or PS, take your choice): a perspective correction in post uprezes the too small end of the image. You can do this in small amounts but you loose your A+ quality if you do a major adjustment.

    Thanks to Lance Shad at Digital Transitions here in NY I had a chance to try an IQ 180 on my Alpa Max with my own Alpa Schneider 36mm APO Switar and a 48mm Alpa Schneider APO Helvatar. (Where does Alpa get these names?) Lance also let me use a P65, and of course I have a lot of experience with my own 60 meg back, an H4d-60.

    Separately my good friend Jeff Hirsch of Fotocare lent me a lot of his time and a Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 32mm lens, which I shot with my H4d on my Alpa Max.

    A few other observations before I report on my experience. This is the bleeding edge. I recommend that anyone starting down this road try exact combination that you think that you want before you buy it. You're going to be your own engineer sorting out whatever difficulties there may be - you should understand them before plopping down $60k or so. Resales can be tricky - the market is not as deep as it is say for vintage Leica stuff. The "try before you by" thing is harder than it looks; the dealer who carries C1 is not the same guy as the dealer who carries Alpa; dealers don't carry inventories of this exotic stuff - Jeff just happened to have the 32.

    To be continued.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 27th May 2011 at 11:30.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Let's get back to the basic theme of this thread...

    Another basic question to understand is why does a digital shooter care about shifts?

    I recommend that anyone starting down this road try exact combination that you think that you want before you buy it.

    To be continued.
    Good points Woody. A few observations:

    1. I use shifts to avoid digital manipulation for perspective, provide wider views, and having more detail for my panoramic images. All good reasons IMHO to invest in a tech camera.

    2. In my case it has been a progression to the kit I am now. What worked well with the p45 had issues on the p65 so I upgraded (always at considerable cost and trade offs) trying to guess at where things are heading. The problem is that the backs are usually 2 years ahead of the glass.

    Case in point, current hi-res glass is engineered for 6 micron pixel pitch which matches nicely with 60mp backs. Now we are at 5.2 on the iq180 so even with the best glass the extreme edges of the image circles exhibit a slight softening. The resolution of the back is so high the lens just can't resolve it all. It is evident in ALL of my tech glass SN72L, HR32 and HR23.

    Don't get the wrong idea, it is still more detail than the p65 even without edge sharpening. It's like using 645 film glass with a digital back. Perfectly usable but not able to resolve 100% of what the back is capable of.

    I won't start a rant but the iq180 features are addictive from the first session and the color absolutely lifelike.

  47. #97
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Ed - Have you shot anything with the 72 on the IQ back yet? Not sure if your comment is from P65+ or IQ180.
    My comments where from p65+ but I have since received my iq180 and it works fantastically with the 72. I don't see that the color cast is any worse than the p65 on this lens - almost non-existent.

    Using 100% of the image circle you can detect slight softening at the extreme edges but you have to be looking for it. Any normal viewer would never see it even at 96" wide.

    Trying to use 100% of the image circle is problematic anyway because the LCC code doesn't do a good job. The algorithm doesn't know to not try and balance the total black so it leaves artifacts out into the usable part of the image.

  48. #98
    jeffacme
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Back in the day when you entered a post secondary Photography program you learned on a view camera in most cases for at least a year.

    If you were shooting advertising in the 80's and 90's high quality meant big film often 8x10 trans.

    Is there anything more soul satisfying then being the master of your own capture plane?

    With the combo of Arca 6x9 view, P65+, and KG slider with Hassy prism I felt finally the long trek in the digital wilderness was nearing it's end.

    Shooting with a view or tech camera has always had it's challenges and quirks. Think back to spot meters and the zone system. The current process of LCC files is much simpler and more automated.

    So in the tradition of Group f64 if you want technical excellence you have to work for it and that work has it's own rewards.

    We are all fortunate to be shooting in a time of amazing technical advances in optics, capture technology, and software. AA and his Group f64 comrades would be green with envy at the tools we possess and the almost effortless quality they deliver.

    I am hopeful that when my IQ 180 arrives it will close the circle and bring me back to my roots. Camera, lens, tripod, and CF cards?

  49. #99
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Yes Starving Artist, not sure i want to go back that far.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    So here come some results. First IQ 180 vs P65 on the Alpa with the 48mm Schneider - the backs were mounted on the Alpa in portrait orientation. I'm showing the LCC correction exposures first, because they give some idea of how hard the LCC function has to work:

    First the IQ 180 with the lens shifted downward 17mm.



    Now the P65 with the same downward 17mm shift:



    Quite a difference, huh. The light fall off is normal for this type of lens in this part of its image circle. The color is not - its an artifact of the sensor. I suspect that we are up against the laws of physics here with the sensor grid acting as a diffraction grating. The difference moving from 6 microns to 5.2 is striking. (Note that it is the shift that is causing this - unshifted this lens performs fine with either back). Smaller shifts put you less far into the dark blue zone.

    Here we've shifted the lens 17mm to the left

    First the IQ 180:



    Now the P65:



    Less extreme (because we're not as far out in the image circle) but still a major difference. The P65 result is quite good, actually. Below is the actual image taken on the IQ 180 and P65 corrected with the LCC (for color not for light fall off). The P65 results are consistent with the results that I'm obtaining with my H4d-60.

    First a screen shot of both the IQ 180 and P65 from LR:



    In both cases C1 has LCC has been applied from the respective LCC shots above. I made minor tweaks to make the color balance of the outputs similar. The LLC corrections are most extreme at the far right. Note that the awning color (look at the portion in the shate} of red is less saturated (and not how I remember it) and contrast is lower on the IQ 180 image.

    Here are 1:1 crops of the same pair:



    Note that there is less low contrast detail in the IQ 180 image, giving a slightly plasticy feel. I'm sparing you further samples.

    I didn't believe my eyes on this so I double and triple checked the settings.

    My bottom line 80 megs vs. 60 megs as a tech cameral platform is I'm in a wait and see mode - I'd like to see others who are better at this than I am prove that the issues have been resolved, or at least to help me understand what the limits of these backs are. The results may be different for Rodenstock lenses - I hope that someone can explore this on the IQ 180. My next installment will compare a Rodenstock and a Schneider lens, at comparable focal length, on a 60 meg back.

    Note that the issues in the post relate to shifts on a tech camera only. Lance also provided me with an opportunity to shoot the IQ 180 on the Phase camera, and we did non shifted setups on the tech camera, and all of the foregoing were outstanding.

    The next installment will be schneider vs. rodenstock.

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