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Thread: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Woody,

    Looks like a pretty conclusive test, at least with the 47 Schneider, and as you say does not bode well for the sub 6u sensors...

    It appears that for tech cams, lenses with more retrofocus designs will be the order of the day as pixel wells get smaller.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Rodenstock better gear up for a onslaught
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Who want's to buy a like new Schneider 43mm for Arca Swiss ? ;-)

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It appears that for tech cams, lenses with more retrofocus designs will be the order of the day as pixel wells get smaller.
    That may be the case Jack but what I don't understand is why this sort of information is only now coming out considering the Leaf 12 has been our since Jan and I've not seen any mention of these problems on that platform.

    Is it some processing Phase applies to it's files that makes the situation worse or do 100% of all Aptus 12 users never use them on a tech camera with movements?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Chris if i had the money I would and i turned down a good deal on a Arca too. I need my IQ 160 first though. I can't have my cake and eat it this time. Damn life sucks. LOL
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Woody's results are as I speculated earlier in this thread. Interestingly, the IQ180 image shows the light tones as darker and the dark tones as lighter as compared to the P65 image (not to mention the loss of colour and density at the edges of the IC).

    But the more interesting question to me is: If you don't push the IC's of the Schneiders, do you get a similar net effective useable IC as the Rodenstocks? So effectively the net result is similar IC's between the two brands, but with the trade-offs between more sensor cast, more fall-off, centre filters, less distortion, less cost, and smaller physical size with the Schneiders. One complicating factor is the Rodenstocks that have larger IC's than officially stated - or are they compromised by the smaller pixel pitch of the 80MP sensors too?

    My quandary is that I've just invested in a Cambo WRS and a set of Schneiders for commercial architectural work and have an IQ180 on order. Swap lens brands or "downgrade" to an IQ160? Or maybe stick with the Schneiders and IQ180, and re-assess later? I also have plans to do some large exhibition prints and the 80MP would sure be nice to have. Decisions, decisions.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Rodenstock better gear up for a onslaught
    Or Phase better get ready for a glut of 180 returns and 160 orders.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I would not cancel the IQ 180 if it was me but rework my lenses. But that is me

    I also would test it in your shooting environment before selling any lens. Not sure i would panic here but get everything in hand do your LCC and your corrections and see YOUR results on those given shooting situations than evaluate from there. Sorry and this is in general running scared here is not the answer. Figure out what is going to work on how you shoot is.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Woody's results are as I speculated earlier in this thread. Interestingly, the IQ180 image shows the light tones as darker and the dark tones as lighter as compared to the P65 image (not to mention the loss of colour and density at the edges of the IC).

    But the more interesting question to me is: If you don't push the IC's of the Schneiders, do you get a similar net effective useable IC as the Rodenstocks? So effectively the net result is similar IC's between the two brands, but with the trade-offs between more sensor cast, more fall-off, centre filters, less distortion, less cost, and smaller physical size with the Schneiders. One complicating factor is the Rodenstocks that have larger IC's than officially stated - or are they compromised by the smaller pixel pitch of the 80MP sensors too?

    My quandary is that I've just invested in a Cambo WRS and a set of Schneiders for commercial architectural work and have an IQ180 on order. Swap lens brands or "downgrade" to an IQ160? Or maybe stick with the Schneiders and IQ180, and re-assess later? I also have plans to do some large exhibition prints and the 80MP would sure be nice to have. Decisions, decisions.
    You should let more people weigh in with actual results before changing course.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Or Phase better get ready for a glut of 180 returns and 160 orders.
    Most people aren't using these on tech cameras and ought to be very happy with the 180.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would not cancel the IQ 180 if it was me but rework my lenses. But that is me

    I also would test it in your shooting environment before selling any lens. Not sure i would panic here but get everything in hand do your LCC and your corrections and see YOUR results on those given shooting situations than evaluate from there. Sorry and this is in general running scared here is not the answer. Figure out what is going to work on how you shoot is.
    I agree with Guy on the point that you really have to try it in your environment to figure it out.

    I disagree on reworking the lenses but that's purely a matter of personal preference. I go for glass first and then figure out what to put behind it. That's why I'm a Leica user - there's a lot about the M9 that's a PITA but you can't argue with the glass.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That may be the case Jack but what I don't understand is why this sort of information is only now coming out considering the Leaf 12 has been our since Jan and I've not seen any mention of these problems on that platform.

    Is it some processing Phase applies to it's files that makes the situation worse or do 100% of all Aptus 12 users never use them on a tech camera with movements?

    Excellent question(s), but I suspect it's that for whatever reason Aptus 12 shooters with tech cams simply didn't bother reporting it on any forums or maybe didn't even notice it. I think a lot of casual tech cam users do not impart massive shifts regularly.

    Even with Phase, Michael Reichmann alluded to the fact he didn't notice it right away because he wasn't doing massive shifts with his tech camera and his usual LCC methodology was handling whatever did crop up. Keep in mind, Phase IQ shooters have only had the ability to use the IQ180 on a tech cam for a few weeks at most, and many for just a few days, so we are at the head of the curve on this. But it does seem odd the issue was not picked up or reported widely from early Aptus 12 users, because it is as much of an issue there as it is with the IQ180...
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Just to add on the Prototypes that we all tested the ports for using tech cams was not serviceable so until final production at least outside of Phase itself what would work. So its all new here.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Has anyone tried using the Schneider "digital filter" plug in for Photoshop vs. LCC for the brightness drop off? Obviously the big issue here seems to be the color cast vs just brightness but I was wondering if there were any qualitative differences that might apply particularly with full frame sensors such as the P65+ and especially the IQ180/Aptus II 12.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would not cancel the IQ 180 if it was me but rework my lenses. But that is me

    I also would test it in your shooting environment before selling any lens. Not sure i would panic here but get everything in hand do your LCC and your corrections and see YOUR results on those given shooting situations than evaluate from there. Sorry and this is in general running scared here is not the answer. Figure out what is going to work on how you shoot is.
    Absolutely agree that a panicked knee-jerk reaction is the worst possible thing to do. I like the Schneiders' ultra-low distortion, especially for my work. But the choice seems to be correcting the Rodenstocks' greater distortion in post, versus dealing with and correcting the Schneiders' greater cast in post.

    My dealer did very a quick and dirty test using the 35mm XL and IQ180. To my eyes, I thought that the cast was fixable at the maximum officially stated shift (and no CF too, which didn't help). Maybe needs slightly more work in post to correct the loss of saturation and density at the edges than with previous sensors. But don't forget this is at the very edges. For those who are aiming to squeeze every last drop of IQ out of the entire IC, then your conclusions may be different.

    I think the main problem is that everyone has been used to pushing their movements beyond the officially stated IC's, both for the Rodenstocks and Schneiders. I think we are going to have to play a bit more by the rules with these new sensors.

    My gut reaction is wait and see, live with everything for 6 months, go out and shoot and enjoy my new gear.

    EDIT: P.S. After months of decision angst, finally pulling the pin and investing in my dream tech camera and view camera set-ups together with latest and greatest DB, my new mantra is: Be cool and remember to breathe.

    EDIT #2: Oh yeah, and have FUN.
    Last edited by cng; 27th May 2011 at 10:08.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Honestly I think that is a good plan. See what works for you and not everyone pushes these shift to the limits either or beyond. Depends on what you do and shoot. Bottom line and this goes back to Dougs comment somewhere here to get the best results you will need a LCC to make those corrections. That is the world of tech cams. No free lunch, it's work time. LOL
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Has anyone tried using the Schneider "digital filter" plug in for Photoshop vs. LCC for the brightness drop off? Obviously the big issue here seems to be the color cast vs just brightness but I was wondering if there were any qualitative differences that might apply particularly with full frame sensors such as the P65+ and especially the IQ180/Aptus II 12.
    Graham, I obviously don't have my IQ yet, but after talking to a few people the consensus seems to be that you're better off correcting the fall-off in C1. The Schneider plugin just adds a detour to your workflow. There was also the opinion expressed by some that C1's correction was "better" and more sophisticated than Schneider's. Plus without a glass CF any software-based correction has to push the exposure in the edges quite a lot, potentially creating visible noise especially with the greater fall-off seen with the new 80MP sensors.

    I have the glass CF for my 35mm and am awaiting one for my 43mm (Schneider advised me Aug/Sept). Personally, I'll test Schneider's plugin but I'm planning to do as much as I can in C1.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Honestly I think that is a good plan. See what works for you and not everyone pushes these shift to the limits either or beyond. Depends on what you do and shoot. Bottom line and this goes back to Dougs comment somewhere here to get the best results you will need a LCC to make those corrections. That is the world of tech cams. No free lunch, it's work time. LOL
    LCC all the way. Never understood anyone that thought differently (is that too blunt?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No free lunch, it's work time. LOL
    100%. And you know what? I'm EXCITED.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    So lets turn next to Rodenstock and Schneider. I have only one reference point. Jeff Hirsch at Fotocare generously spent a morning with me on the subject. The one Rodenstock lens that he had in inventory (see may earlier note on dealer inventories) was the HR 32mm Digatar, which in terms of focal length matches up well with my Schneider 36 APO.

    I've had the Schneider 36 for a reasonable amount of time so I know it well. Its resolution at the center just matches my 60 meg back and it has excellent local contrast giving it "bite" (remember contrast and resolution are a trade off). Its sweet spot just covers the 60 meg sensor - its image circle is substantially larger but resolution falls off so it is not really good for shifts or stitching. I use it on my Alpa TC, which matches with it perfectly.

    Lance Shad and I put it on the Alpa Max with the IQ 180 - the back clearly oversamples the lens. There was no problem making LCCs centered and with small shifts. We wondered whether focus was off but this wide at f11 at 90 feet distance there's not much that can go wrong focus wise if you stick close to infinity. It's definately a keeper with the TC and a 60 meg back.

    Here's a shot out of Digital Transition's window with the S 36 on the IQ 180 and 7mm of back rise and 5mm of shift, solely for the purpose of composing the image. As I said the rendering is lovely and there is no linear distortion, but the upper right (the center of the image circle) is just a little soft, and the lower left is, well, soft.



    I'm using this on my blog as my daily photo.

    So the question is if I switched to the 35 Rodenstock would I get to do shifts.

    Jeff and I set it up in front of Fotocare with my 60 meg Hasselblad back. I took exposures at f11 and ISO 50 (the back's base ISO) along with LCC shots (which are called scene calibration shots in H-land). One of the things that we did was 17mm left shift and 17mm right shift with the back in portrait orientation setting up a stitch.

    I'll post images below but at 60 megs its perfectly sharp and is sharp way out in the image circle - almost to the edges of the stitch that I described above. It has lower local contrast than the Schneider, which again should be expected because contrast and resolution trade off. It's issue is linear distortion, which in the confines of the centered 60 meg sensor is fairly benign and easily correctible barrel distortion. As you go out in the image circle this turns into totally wild mustache distortion - making this lens very hard to use if there are architectural subjects or other straight lines in the frame, or even if there are people or other objects with know shapes near the edges of the frame. These issues inhere, I believe, in very wide lenses of this design. So while the problem isn't resolution this lens has its own issue when used on a tech camera.

    Center Crop:



    Edge crop:



    Amazing, isn't it.

    But here's the bad nows. The whole stitched frame:



    There's a lot of pavement in the image because we wanted to keep the camera orthagonal. There are a few dust motes - the back has come off of the camera a dozen times in the past day or two. Phocus handled the scene corrections without a hitch. Shifting the Hasselblad back horizontally whlle the back is in portrait orientation results in centerfolding, but it's subtle enough (depending on the amount of shift) that you don't notice it in a busy shot like this. I'll explore what it looks like in a later post.

    So . . . the Rodenstock 32 is an outstanding candidate for shifts if you limit yourself to trees and rocks, but geometric distortion is an issue if you deal with straight lines. And the geometric distortion issue arrises on shifts; it's small and easily controlled when the back is centered.

    The 32 is a tough focal length to design so kudos to Rodenstock for producing this - I would very much like to see how the 50 works out vs. my Schneider 48 - it ought to have much less distortion.

    BTW all exposures in this series are at f11, more or less a little bit because the Copal shutter is unfriendly to half stops, and at the back's base ISO. As long as you're on a tripod and not stopping a basketball game why not.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 27th May 2011 at 17:07.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    LCC all the way. Never understood anyone that thought differently (is that too blunt?).



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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Not sure i could deal with that distortion on the Rodie. Like to at least use something like this with interiors this wide. The 36 Schneider and a TC is got me looking for banks to use my new ski mask on. LOL
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Absolutely agree that a panicked knee-jerk reaction is the worst possible thing to do. I like the Schneiders' ultra-low distortion, especially for my work. But the choice seems to be correcting the Rodenstocks' greater distortion in post, versus dealing with and correcting the Schneiders' greater cast in post.

    My dealer did very a quick and dirty test using the 35mm XL and IQ180. To my eyes, I thought that the cast was fixable at the maximum officially stated shift (and no CF too, which didn't help). Maybe needs slightly more work in post to correct the loss of saturation and density at the edges than with previous sensors. But don't forget this is at the very edges. For those who are aiming to squeeze every last drop of IQ out of the entire IC, then your conclusions may be different.

    I think the main problem is that everyone has been used to pushing their movements beyond the officially stated IC's, both for the Rodenstocks and Schneiders. I think we are going to have to play a bit more by the rules with these new sensors.

    My gut reaction is wait and see, live with everything for 6 months, go out and shoot and enjoy my new gear.

    EDIT: P.S. After months of decision angst, finally pulling the pin and investing in my dream tech camera and view camera set-ups together with latest and greatest DB, my new mantra is: Be cool and remember to breathe.

    EDIT #2: Oh yeah, and have FUN.
    +1 on stay cool and have fun. I started this discussion by saying that most of us who are interested in tech cameras are interested in A+ IQ. In my view there isn't a path to get to A+ at the dark blue edge because you will always be trying to replace information that was just lost.

    Most of us are dealing with cameras with max movements in the range of 12 - 17 mm. A lot of lenses shut us down before we get there because of image circle/resolution/linear distortion issues. As you extend movements with with an 80 meg back my work to date convinces me that at some point color accuracy, saturation and low contrast resolution become issues. The question for each lens is where does this effect become significant enough to knock you out of A+ image quality.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 27th May 2011 at 11:27.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Graham, I obviously don't have my IQ yet, but after talking to a few people the consensus seems to be that you're better off correcting the fall-off in C1. The Schneider plugin just adds a detour to your workflow. There was also the opinion expressed by some that C1's correction was "better" and more sophisticated than Schneider's. Plus without a glass CF any software-based correction has to push the exposure in the edges quite a lot, potentially creating visible noise especially with the greater fall-off seen with the new 80MP sensors.

    I have the glass CF for my 35mm and am awaiting one for my 43mm (Schneider advised me Aug/Sept). Personally, I'll test Schneider's plugin but I'm planning to do as much as I can in C1.
    Do report on your experience with the glass center filters. My guess is that they will help on the low contrast resolution issue.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Nice test images Woody and thanks for taking the time to do them.

    The distortion of the rodenstock wides was one reason why I went 43XL over 40HRW. Looking at your results, even in despite of the restriction in movements I'm still thinking if you shoot architecture etc then this choice might still hold if upgrading to the 180.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    i'm not so sure. In my eyes the 43 is unusable with the 43mm if you need some type of movement, which you often need shooting architecture. The 40 has pretty much the same distortion that the 32mm has. However for both lenses the magic is called ALPA Lens Corrector. ;-)

    And as it looks there is no real alternative to the 32, if you need something wide with movements with the IQ180. I don't want to see how the 28 schneider looks. Probably a disaster when it comes to lens cast. and on the res side what I heard there isn't much room for movements.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Christopher - did you feel limited in any way with the 43mm on the P65+? Also, considering you had both the 43 and 40 how did you chose which on to use when you were shooting?

    Still trying to get my head around what I'm going to do with either lens or backs. At least I wasn't top of the list and get a few extra weeks of people testing out the gear.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    my 40 is a lot older. My 43 is more or less new. 3 months old in a new like condition. Only used for some quick testing. I wanted it to use as hiking panoramic lens. big image circle and it's really small. However, I don't think I will be doing that anymore or at least not if I stick with the IQ180 and don't get the IQ160.

    It works a lot better on the P65. A LOT.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I've been following this closely or so I thought but have a couple questions.

    Which camera has been used? Cambo, Alpa, what? Not that it should matter either way just interested.

    The other questions is how well did C1 6.1.2 do in correcting the LCC when using " Technical Wideangle"?
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    My quandary is that I've just invested in a Cambo WRS and a set of Schneiders for commercial architectural work and have an IQ180 on order. Swap lens brands or "downgrade" to an IQ160? Or maybe stick with the Schneiders and IQ180, and re-assess later? I also have plans to do some large exhibition prints and the 80MP would sure be nice to have. Decisions, decisions.
    This is pretty much where I am - either that or get out altogether, which I'd rather not do. Trouble is, it looks like the market for Schneider glass second hand might be about to take a hit so even if one did want to carry around those larger Roddys and deal with their worse distortion characteristics, one might find the hit financially to be rather an 'ouch' on top of the upgrade costs to IQ180. Given the slowness of materialisation of my 180 I might investigate the cost of doing a 160 instead, and regarding it as in many ways a better back than the 180, which would really just be for DF shooters and pixel count fanatics. Grrrr.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Maybe I'll get my IQ 160 faster. LOL

    Okay that just is not nice.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    OMG - I'm jinxed. As soon as I posted about making decisions about what to do I got an invoice and notification that my back has shipped from Denmark - s**t.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    OMG - I'm jinxed. As soon as I posted about making decisions about what to do I got an invoice and notification that my back has shipped from Denmark - s**t.
    Oh how annoying for you! I have been half hoping to get the call saying my back is ready to collect and half hoping it is delayed until there's more information available!

    Doug at Capture Integration has run the tests the results of which I need to know (Schneider 35XL on IQ180) but there has been an outbreak of ill-health in his office (poor them) and so posting the results will be delayed.

    Hope it works out well for you Terry!

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Just got off the phone with Ken Doo - his 180 is shipping soon as well. Looks like I'll get a chance to test it out again on my WRS in a couple weeks in Page.
    Don Libby
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    OMG - I'm jinxed. As soon as I posted about making decisions about what to do I got an invoice and notification that my back has shipped from Denmark - s**t.
    Wish I got my notice. You know how painful this place will be me waiting for the IQ 160 and here I have NO CLUE when they are shipping. I'm going to drive you folks nuts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Talking Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wish I got my notice. You know how painful this place will be me waiting for the IQ 160 and here I have NO CLUE when they are shipping. I'm going to drive you folks nuts.
    really big fonts will help with the pain ;-)

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Made me feel better for about a second. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    "Looks like I'll get a chance to test it out again on my WRS in a couple weeks in Page." Will Ken be charging the same rate for use of the 180 as for the P65?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    really big fonts will help with the pain ;-)

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    i'm not so sure. In my eyes the 43 is unusable with the 43mm if you need some type of movement, which you often need shooting architecture. The 40 has pretty much the same distortion that the 32mm has. However for both lenses the magic is called ALPA Lens Corrector. ;-)

    And as it looks there is no real alternative to the 32, if you need something wide with movements with the IQ180. I don't want to see how the 28 schneider looks. Probably a disaster when it comes to lens cast. and on the res side what I heard there isn't much room for movements.
    Hmmm . . . I didn't realize that it corrects for distortion. I'll apply it to the Rodie images and see what happens.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I've been following this closely or so I thought but have a couple questions.

    Which camera has been used? Cambo, Alpa, what? Not that it should matter either way just interested.

    The other questions is how well did C1 6.1.2 do in correcting the LCC when using " Technical Wideangle"?
    Don -

    Alpa but it should not make a difference.

    I only used C1 v 6.2 and I used "analyze (technical wideangle) . . ." to make all LCCs. That's one of the settings that I double checked.

    Regards,

    Woody

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    I have the glass CF for my 35mm and am awaiting one for my 43mm (Schneider advised me Aug/Sept).
    I don't understand the point of the centre filter with a large image circle lens like the 43XL. Straight shots with no movements no problem but as soon as you move the lens away from the centre of the sensor the filter doesn't match the fall off pattern and are you not just back to digital correction?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Don -

    Alpa but it should not make a difference.

    I only used C1 v 6.2 and I used "analyze (technical wideangle) . . ." to make all LCCs. That's one of the settings that I double checked.

    Regards,

    Woody
    Thanks Woody - didn't think it would matter which camera. It's the relation of the lens to the back that does. I'm using the tech wideangle now that I have the P65 and like what it does.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I don't understand the point of the centre filter with a large image circle lens like the 43XL. Straight shots with no movements no problem but as soon as you move the lens away from the centre of the sensor the filter doesn't match the fall off pattern and are you not just back to digital correction?
    The point of the cw filter is that it compensates for drop off, so an lcc image will appear flat gray where ever it's taken.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I did one major screw up in the above chain of posts. My friend and partner in crime on the IQ 180, Lance Shad, is at Digital Transitions in New York (and the view is out their window across 35th Street) not the other place that I named in my second post. But you knew that because you didn't see palm trees. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa . . . . Digital Transitions is an outstanding dealer. Fortunately I was still able to edit the post so if you're seeing this for the first time you won't know what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 27th May 2011 at 17:08.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Thanks Woody - didn't think it would matter which camera. It's the relation of the lens to the back that does. I'm using the tech wideangle now that I have the P65 and like what it does.
    I'm in the same happy boat with my H4D-60, which is the same sensor as the P65.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Do report on your experience with the glass center filters.
    Of course. I definitely want to put back into this forum, given how much I've gotten from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I don't understand the point of the centre filter with a large image circle lens like the 43XL. Straight shots with no movements no problem but as soon as you move the lens away from the centre of the sensor the filter doesn't match the fall off pattern and are you not just back to digital correction?
    The fall-off is a function of the lens. Since the filter sits on the lens and moves with it as it's shifted, then the filter by default compensates for the fall-off pattern. Yes, the fall-off gets stronger as you shift because you are by definition reaching the outer edges of the IC and also because of increasingly oblique light angles exiting the lens (i.e. potentially leading to mechanical vignetting and compounded by photons having to squeeze into pixel wells at these steep angles). But the general shape of the fall-off remains the same. With shift, the filter becomes less efficient at compensating for the amount of fall-off, but it's still better than relying solely on software for pushing exposure in dark corners. The filters are not perfect but they begin to bring the edges and centre of the IC closer in exposure values.

    The filters are optimised exposure-wise for zero movements as a default base value, but this does not negate their usefulness. Software can help get us the rest of the way towards a more evenly exposed frame.

    The alternative would be to fix the filter in place, say at the sensor plane. But as you shift the lens then the filter would be useless to compensate for the fall-off pattern because the IC is moving relative to the fixed plane of the filter. It will in fact make matters worse because you will end up with the dark edges of the filter overlapping with the dark edges of the IC (imagine two donuts on a parallel plane being shifted relative to each other).

    Centre filters are a fact of life when using super-wide lenses with large IC's, whether we are talking about digital MF or 4x5 film. They are notoriously difficult to produce, having to be image neutral, colour neutral and match the fall-off pattern of a particular lens. I'm guessing Schneider would probably prefer not to have to produce centre filters anymore given their insistence that everyone make use of their PS plugin. Fortunately, enough people yelled loud enough about the 43mm XL. I'm sure there some people insisting on a filter for the 28mm Super-Digitar (I would do the same if I owned it).

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Woody - have you run any of the 32mm files through the Alpa Lens Corrector?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    I go for glass first and then figure out what to put behind it.
    One "good" thing is that I bet there will be lots more updated lenses and perhaps even a new lens range from Schneider in the next few years. I bet they are working on them already – there is no way that they could not have anticipated all this high-res sensor angst. The 28mm Super-Digitar looks like the beginning of a new direction for Schneider with regards to their tech lenses. Better start saving.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Woody - have you run any of the 32mm files through the Alpa Lens Corrector?
    Its the 35 R that has the distortion issue. Im traveling now and hope to try this early next week.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Sorry guys we're going to have to run our tests again. Some variables were not controlled that are essential to getting a good illustration of what part of the image circle is fully usable, somewhat usable, and not usable for both the 60 and 80mp sensors.

    Thanks for the well wishes re: my health. My doctor saw me very quickly and antibiotics have worked their magic. Still a bit worn down from all the travel lately but no complaints.

    We'd love to run all the relevant lenses (28/35/43/47/60 Schneider and 23/28/40 Rodenstock) at the same time and are looking for a focal length or two that we don't have in stock right now. If you have a Cambo mount lens in this field and want to offer up one of your lenses please PM me. We can compensate with discounted rentals and the satisfaction you've helped us clarify this subject for the community. Test will be this Wednesday and/or Thursday in Miami.

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