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Thread: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Its the 35 R that has the distortion issue. Im traveling now and hope to try this early next week.
    Woody, I think there has been a bit of confusion because you refer interchangeably to the Rodenstock 35mm and HR 32mm in your comparisons.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Sorry guys we're going to have to run our tests again. Some variables were not controlled that are essential to getting a good illustration of what part of the image circle is fully usable, somewhat usable, and not usable for both the 60 and 80mp sensors.

    Thanks for the well wishes re: my health. My doctor saw me very quickly and antibiotics have worked their magic. Still a bit worn down from all the travel lately but no complaints.

    We'd love to run all the relevant lenses (28/35/43/47/60 Schneider and 23/28/40 Rodenstock) at the same time and are looking for a focal length or two that we don't have in stock right now. If you have a Cambo mount lens in this field and want to offer up one of your lenses please PM me. We can compensate with discounted rentals and the satisfaction you've helped us clarify this subject for the community. Test will be this Wednesday and/or Thursday in Miami.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    We're going WAY off-topic now, but are CF cards prone to data "evaporation", similar to hard drives that aren't fired up regularly?
    yes !

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    yes !
    nope

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Okay folks . Welcome to the Getdpi debate team

    Here in one corner weighing in at SDHC 32gb we have Yup and in the other corner we have weighing in at CF 32gb we have Nope.

    Let the debate continue 3 minutes per round for 3 rounds winner gets a free DVD disk. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay folks . Welcome to the Getdpi debate team

    Here in one corner weighing in at SDHC 32gb we have Yup and in the other corner we have weighing in at CF 32gb we have Nope.

    Let the debate continue 3 minutes per round for 3 rounds winner gets a free DVD disk. LOL
    Let the games begin

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    You can provoke some of the problems shown with and discussed in the context of the IQ180 with the P40.

    Schneider 28mm, wide open (5.6), shifted from 0 to 25 mm, all on P40+.

    The Schneider 43mm fares a bit better (if this is of any interest, I could post a similiar LCC sequence for the Schneider 43mm, shifted from 0 to 30mm).

    I have no first hand experience of IQ180 files but, at the time being and with my limited experience, I don't think we see a new or up to now unknown problem.

    Chris

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    It actually is the same thing no matter what back assuming there are no micro lenses. The critical angle is a function of the sensor pixel pitch. LCC "correction" code also neds to deal with the fact that the cells are not actually uniformly spaced and of consistent pitch; DALSA sensors have additional poly-silicon conductors spaced through the array which the raw processors need to take care of especially as acute angles cause them to cast long shadows.
    My pet theory is that there is a specific angle which becomes problematical at a given pixel pitch. That angle determines the widest angle fov that can be accommodated. Note that this FOV is almost independent of sensor size since it is the angle that determines criticality. Thus a large sensor will go critical at a longer focal length than a small sensor but both will go critical at about the same fov for the given pixel pitch.
    So what all the hubbub really is all about is folks adjusting to a 5.2 micron pixel pitch and trying to make sense of lenses based on favorites determined with a sensor of different pixel pitch and size.
    I propose that a proportional slide-rule would do an adequate job of predicting the results.
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I propose that a proportional slide-rule would do an adequate job of predicting the results.
    thanks
    -bob
    Wise words... trouble is, most of us (me included!) have forgotten how to use one!

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    You can provoke some of the problems shown with and discussed in the context of the IQ180 with the P40.

    Schneider 28mm, wide open (5.6), shifted from 0 to 25 mm, all on P40+.
    Chris, those results with the 28mm are quite a surprise to me and look really clean considering its such a wide lens. I'd be really happy with 10mm of movement with this lens. I thought the new 28mm super digitar however was a retrofocus design lens so possibly helping with the issue compired to the usual symetrical Schneider wide lens designs (35XL and 43XL).

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Chris, those results with the 28mm are quite a surprise to me and look really clean considering its such a wide lens. I'd be really happy with 10mm of movement with this lens. I thought the new 28mm super digitar however was a retrofocus design lens so possibly helping with the issue compired to the usual symetrical Schneider wide lens designs (35XL and 43XL).
    But that is also on a P40+ which has two things in it's favor vs IQ180. Larger pixels and smaller sensor.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    But that is also on a P40+ which has two things in it's favor vs IQ180. Larger pixels and smaller sensor.
    I am not sure that it is really "in favor"
    I propose that the field of view expressed as an angle will be the same.
    You just need longer lenses to get there.
    -bob

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I spent some time yesterday shooting "real world" landscapes with the Arca RM3D and Schneider 43 in front of my IQ180 back.

    I won't bore you with the "ugly" LCC frames since they looked just like the others posted here other than to say I found that LCC using "Analyze Technical Wideangle" in C1 6.2 worked perfectly well up to 20mm of shift on this lens. At 20mm however, the lens itself starts falling apart to where the corners are very visibly bad. Probably about 17mm is the maximum practical shift with this lens on full frame, regardless of sensor. IMHO given the fact LCC is totally usable there with this lens on the IQ180, I think the combination issue is pretty much nullified. However, falloff is pretty extreme in this lens at 15mm of shift, showing about 2 stops at the shifted edge. Since falloff with that much shift can be in a significant portion of the image that includes highlights, the LCC falloff correction can cause an otherwise good full frame histogram to blow those highlights after correction. (Falloff in technical wideangle lenses can act like a Split Neutral Density filter for skies, and thus influence the histogram giving you false confidence. This is favorable for things like bright skies, but not necessarily for the rest of the tones in the image below the 3/4 mark.) Thus for this lens, I'd recommend getting a physical center filter to help reduce the load on the LCC for making the extreme correction by itself, also rendering a more realistic histogram spread. Other option is to leave about a full stop of exposure headroom if you shift 10mm or more.

    Usage Note: Setting focus mask at 40 makes for a comfortable indication of accurate focus. Moving it up to 45 renders a tighter and narrower indication, and my preference might be 48 or so for those wanting maximum criticality. Confirming with a double-tap to 100% is still recommended until you get comfortable with reading the system.

    I am trying to get my hands on a Rodenstock 40 HR-W in Arca mount to test this coming week.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    LCC using "Analyze Technical Wideangle" in C1 6.2 worked perfectly well up to 20mm of shift on this lens. At 20mm however, the lens itself starts falling apart to where the corners are very visibly bad. Probably about 17mm is the maximum practical shift with this lens on full frame, regardless of sensor. IMHO given the fact LCC is totally usable there with this lens on the IQ180, I think the combination issue is pretty much nullified.
    Just doing some very quick rough numbers in my head, does this then mean the useable IC of the Schneider 43mm is comparable to/slightly more than the official IC for the Rodenstock 32mm HR-W (and of course much less than the 43mm's official specs)? So we effectively still gain a few more mm of movements compared to the Rodenstock, ignoring the fact that the 32mm HR-W may actually have a larger IC than officially quoted.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I spent some time yesterday shooting "real world" landscapes with the Arca RM3D and Schneider 43 in front of my IQ180 back.

    I won't bore you with the "ugly" LCC frames since they looked just like the others posted here other than to say I found that LCC using "Analyze Technical Wideangle" in C1 6.2 worked perfectly well up to 20mm of shift on this lens. At 20mm however, the lens itself starts falling apart to where the corners are very visibly bad. Probably about 17mm is the maximum practical shift with this lens on full frame, regardless of sensor. IMHO given the fact LCC is totally usable there with this lens on the IQ180, I think the combination issue is pretty much nullified. However, falloff is pretty extreme in this lens at 15mm of shift, showing about 2 stops at the shifted edge. Since falloff with that much shift can be in a significant portion of the image that includes highlights, the LCC falloff correction can cause an otherwise good full frame histogram to blow those highlights after correction. (Falloff in technical wideangle lenses can act like a Split Neutral Density filter for skies, and thus influence the histogram giving you false confidence. This is favorable for things like bright skies, but not necessarily for the rest of the tones in the image below the 3/4 mark.) Thus for this lens, I'd recommend getting a physical center filter to help reduce the load on the LCC for making the extreme correction by itself, also rendering a more realistic histogram spread. Other option is to leave about a full stop of exposure headroom if you shift 10mm or more.

    Usage Note: Setting focus mask at 40 makes for a comfortable indication of accurate focus. Moving it up to 45 renders a tighter and narrower indication, and my preference might be 48 or so for those wanting maximum criticality. Confirming with a double-tap to 100% is still recommended until you get comfortable with reading the system.

    I am trying to get my hands on a Rodenstock 40 HR-W in Arca mount to test this coming week.
    Jack - Thanks for the report. Have you tried including an X-rite color checker at the shifted edge that's furthest from the center of the image circle to check color accuracy/saturation? Also testing at higher ISO might give an indication if the LCC adjustment in or near the "blue zone of death" is adding noise. Again I'm guessing but I think base ISO is going to be mandatory when shooting with significant shifts, which is ok because by hypothesis you are working on a tripod.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Just doing some very quick rough numbers in my head, does this then mean the useable IC of the Schneider 43mm is comparable to/slightly more than the official IC for the Rodenstock 32mm HR-W (and of course much less than the 43mm's official specs)? So we effectively still gain a few more mm of movements compared to the Rodenstock, ignoring the fact that the 32mm HR-W may actually have a larger IC than officially quoted.
    Let me just say I feel the spec is using a very loose definition for both LinePairs and contrast ratios at the outer edges of the stated IC. I would state that the lens ILLUMINATES well beyond what I consider its usable IC
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Jack - Thanks for the report. Have you tried including an X-rite color checker at the shifted edge that's furthest from the center of the image circle to check color accuracy/saturation? Also testing at higher ISO might give an indication if the LCC adjustment in or near the "blue zone of death" is adding noise. Again I'm guessing but I think base ISO is going to mandatory when shooting with significant shifts, which is ok because by hypothesis you are working on a tripod.
    I did not do either Woody. I think using a tech cam at other than base ISO is counter productive in real life situations, but what you suggest is good for academic knowledge. But bottom line using my 2-stops margin measured for the falloff on this lens, knowing LCC needs to boost that by 2 stops, and knowing that the IQ180 is okay at ISO 800, I would say the practical max ISO will be 200 (800 edges), with 100 (400 edges) being totally usable. Having the Passport in the edge of the frame would be relevant useful data too. I'll try and set a simple shot up outside today and do both.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Let me just say I feel the spec is using a very loose definition for resolution at the outer edges of the stated IC
    Politician in the making.

    Luckily I need the movements for the brute work of dealing with converging verticals, rather than stitching, so I can potentially sacrifice some resolution at the edges. I'd rather not, but them's the breaks.

    The Schneiders' greater freedom from distortion still wins for me, with the inescapable trade-off of sensor casts. There's always some element of post-capture work to be done regardless of lens, camera, back or user.

    Thanks very much Jack, Guy, Woody, Christopher and the guys at CI (have I forgotten anyone?) for all the testing.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Okay, here you go Woody:

    This is pretty extreme ugly capture conditions from a technical standpoint for noise and LCC correction combined. 43mm Schneider shifted 12mm left, the max lateral shift in the RM3D I am using, shooting into a shady area so we get the max boost from the LCC at the dark corner. This is ISO 400 on the IQ180, and 1/15th at f11 on the lens. Note too that the Sun is just off camera right behind the cabin to the right basically shining on me as I shoot. Even though it isn't visible to the sensor, it is inside the lens' IC and tossing a boatload of light into the camera. That generates a strong flare in the upper LH corner and less in the upper RH corner. Noise is overly significant as I suspected, probably around net ISO 1600 in the corner after LCC boost. I would advise to use ISO 100 max if you plan on shifting -- and obviously, using ISO 35 would be even better. Note I used my standard (slightly warm) outdoor WB for all of these examples and did NOT dropper the passport! In addition to the noise making it unreliable at that small size, I have a bunch of light reflecting in on the passport from trees, dirty deck and parked cars.

    Edit note: Since the Sun is shining basically on me and the camera form the front right, the LCC for this frame required the exact same exposure as the image to render a centered histo from the LCC. Using my normal 2 stops over, the LCC was pretty much all high gray.

    First we have the un-corrected ugly to show I have the passport in a pretty bad area from an LCC PoV:



    Now here is the LCC corrected frame. I am actually surprised (and sort of impressed) the LCC did not try to correct out the flare:



    Here is the passport crop after the LCC. As you can see, noise is bad at probably around 1600 or more effective net ISO after LCC boost, and renders the passport basically unusable as a WB tool in that area of the frame. However, the overall saturation remains very respectable to my eyes, and not "killed" by the LCC as we feared it might be:



    So I'll go on record with my conclusion:

    If you push to the extreme outer limits of the lens IC or use extremely high ISO's with moderate shifts, you may not be satisfied with the LCC result. However, when used in realistic shooting conditions with proper technique for highest image quality, LCC corrects even significant lens and sensor color cast anomalies exceptionally well.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Okay, here you go Woody:

    This is pretty extreme ugly capture conditions from a technical standpoint for noise and LCC correction combined. 43mm Schneider shifted 12mm left, the max lateral shift in the RM3D I am using, shooting into a shady area so we get the max boost from the LCC at the dark corner. This is ISO 400 on the IQ180, and 1/15th at f11 on the lens. Note too that the Sun is just off camera right behind the cabin to the right basically shining on me as I shoot. Even though it isn't visible to the sensor, it is inside the lens' IC and tossing a boatload of light into the camera. That generates a strong flare in the upper LH corner and less in the upper RH corner. Noise is overly significant as I suspected, probably around net ISO 1600 in the corner after LCC boost. I would advise to use ISO 100 max if you plan on shifting -- and obviously, using ISO 35 would be even better. Note I used my standard (slightly warm) outdoor WB for all of these examples and did NOT dropper the passport! In addition to the noise making it unreliable at that small size, I have a bunch of light reflecting in on the passport from trees, dirty deck and parked cars.

    Edit note: Since the Sun is shining basically on me and the camera form the front right, the LCC for this frame required the exact same exposure as the image to render a centered histo from the LCC. Using my normal 2 stops over, the LCC was pretty much all high gray.

    First we have the un-corrected ugly to show I have the passport in a pretty bad area from an LCC PoV:



    Now here is the LCC corrected frame. I am actually surprised (and sort of impressed) the LCC did not try to correct out the flare:



    Here is the passport crop after the LCC. As you can see, noise is bad at probably around 1600 or more effective net ISO after LCC boost, and renders the passport basically unusable as a WB tool in that area of the frame. However, the overall saturation remains very respectable to my eyes, and not "killed" by the LCC as we feared it might be:



    So I'll go on record with my conclusion:

    If you push to the extreme outer limits of the lens IC or use extremely high ISO's with moderate shifts, you may not be satisfied with the LCC result. However, when used in realistic shooting conditions with proper technique for highest image quality, LCC corrects even significant lens and sensor color cast anomalies exceptionally well.
    Nicely done Jack. The color saturation and accuracy are very good under the circumstances - note that the color correction squares on the left come off as distinguishable. On the noise, going back to base ISO should help a lot, and a CW filter should make a big difference - allowing a 1.5 or 2 stops more exposure on the left edge. Real food for thought here.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Thanks Woody -- yes, there is zero conversion noise I can find at base ISO.

    Here is another exlemplar of how good LCC is. You see how bad the casts are in the above lateral shift. Here is two frames at each end of the full 12.5mm L&R shift in each direction. These look just as bad as the one above before LCC. I purposely put the tree in the center front so we could see any hint of parallax shift if there were any -- there isn't, it's a perfect stitch as we expect from tech cameras with rear shifts and lens remains stationary. Note it's a blustery day here, the wind is blowing, rain off and on and the Sun is moving in and out of clouds, so I had to work really fast to get relatively even lighting. My process was, capture far L, add 2 stops, capture LCC, shift full R and capture image, then add 2 stops and capture LCC. Process each LCC in C1 and apply to each image. Make sure each image has identical settings and their proper LCC, process out as full 16-bit tiffs. Talk about stressing the laptop LOLOL! I then brought them into CS for a merge and got this perfect result. Folks, this is pretty impressive, I did not use the center frame capture; it simply isn't needed. Final file would print out natively at 21 x 44 inches at 360 PPI, and is roughly a 17mm lens FoV in 35mm terms:

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Politician in the making.

    Luckily I need the movements for the brute work of dealing with converging verticals, rather than stitching, so I can potentially sacrifice some resolution at the edges. I'd rather not, but them's the breaks.

    The Schneiders' greater freedom from distortion still wins for me, with the inescapable trade-off of sensor casts. There's always some element of post-capture work to be done regardless of lens, camera, back or user.

    Thanks very much Jack, Guy, Woody, Christopher and the guys at CI (have I forgotten anyone?) for all the testing.
    On distortion gon't give up on the Rodenstocks yet - next week I plan on sorting out how well the Alpa correction tool works with them.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Thanks Woody -- yes, there is zero conversion noise I can find at base ISO.

    Here is another exlemplar of how good LCC is. You see how bad the casts are in the above lateral shift. Here is two frames at each end of the full 12.5mm L&R shift in each direction. These look just as bad as the one above before LCC. I purposely put the tree in the center front so we could see any hint of parallax shift if there were any -- there isn't, it's a perfect stitch as we expect from tech cameras with rear shifts as the lens remains stationary. Note it's a blustery day here, the wind is blowing, rain off and on and the Sun is moving in and out of clouds, so I had to work really fast to get relatively even lighting. My process was, capture far L, add 2 stops, capture LCC, shift full R and capture image, then add 2 stops and capture LCC. Process each LCC in C1 and apply to each image. Make sure each image has identical settings and their proper LCC, process out as full 16-bit tiffs. I then brought them into CS for a merge and got this perfect result. Folks, this is pretty impressive, I did not use the center frame capture; it simply isn't needed. Final file would print out natively at 21 x 44 inches at 360 PPI, and is roughly a 17mm lens FoV in 35mm terms:

    Also a tough test for the lens on purple fringing.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Jack- this one stitch has done wonders to put my mind at ease. For me my typical use of the tech camera would involve stitches like this along with minor shifts to help my framing.

    Thanks!




    .
    Last edited by Terry; 29th May 2011 at 15:22.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Purple fringe -- good call. Maybe just the barest hint?:

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Jack- this one stitch has done wonders to put my mind at ease. For me my typical use of the tech camera would involve stitches like this minor shifts to help my framing.

    Thanks!
    That's why I did it --- LOLOLOLOL!
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Purple fringe -- good call. Maybe just the barest hint?:

    desaturate purple a bit and it goes away, generally without any other consequences in the image.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    desaturate purple a bit and it goes away, generally without any other consequences in the image.
    ''

    In C1 we have a built-in tool to remove it -- I did NOT use it on these conversions, so you are looking at the "real deal" as far as fringing on that lens/sensor combo goes.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Another useful part of the LCC correction tool in C1 is that there is a slider to control the amount of Light Falloff correction you wish to apply (0 - 120 %) which may be useful in striking a balance between the amount of "acceptable noise" and exposure boost from the LCC correction. This may may not be useful for all types of stitched images, however, but on single frame images it could help and I often prefer some vignetting anyway.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Most people aren't using these on tech cameras and ought to be very happy with the 180.
    I own P65+, Aptus 12 and IQ 180 backs. I haven't had time to do much testing yet but without a doubt, both 80MP backs require a lot more LCC correction to be usable. The latest tech-cam LCC option is a massive step forward from the previous generic LCC. Keep in mind this is Gen 1 for this algorythm, so I'd imagine more updates to come, especially in light of the firestorm that's ignited.
    Some of us will recall that the early LCC algorithyms for the P65+ needed more work.
    I earn 90% of my income with a tech cam, so I will be watching closely and testing lots.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    That's why I did it --- LOLOLOLOL!
    Hey Jack,

    You don't happen to have a 35XL up your sleeve do you? If I were anywhere near you I'd send or bring mine over!

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Hi Tim,

    Sorry, I do not. A friend had one, but sold it to get the 43 they loaned me for this test.

    Also, I want to thank Rod Klukas with Arca Swiss for loaning me his personal RM3D to do this test with. I am about 3mm shy of pulling the trigger and going with a tech kit for myself, and have decided if I do make the move, it will definitely be with the Rm3Di -- a truly beautiful camera, clearly designed for shooters to work quickly and accurately! Thank you again for the loan Rod, you may not get it back!

    For those interested, Rod has posted a video of the RM3D features here -- advise good net bandwidth for viewing though: http://vimeo.com/24366528
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Never mind Jack, thanks for the reply - I expect my back soon so I will run the tests on the 35 XL if no one else has managed it by then, and report back here.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    A coda on the Rodenstock: I managed to install the Alpa Lens Corrector, a PS plugin. This was as slight challenge - the installation instructions say that it works with CS 3 and CS 4. What they mean by that is that it doesn't work with CS 5. I've seen this in at least one other case with a plug in that shows up in the "automate" submenu. So you're in luck if you have a legacy version of CS on your computer - I'm not sure what you do if you were a first time buyer of CS 5.

    Anyway, it works and it works very well. It corrected the complex linear distortion of the Rodenstock just fine. It's fast and had no discernible impact on image quality. Of course the size and shape of objects near the edge of the frame are distorted in very wide shots (for the same reason the Greenland looks bigger than South America in a mercator projection of the earth) even though (or actually because) the lines are straight but that's not Rodenstock's fault - just a fact of life when you go really wide.

    Here's a screen shot from LR showing after and before for the right hand frame in the pano that I posted previously:



    The version on the left was my blog post for the day - it reflects a little extra work to smooth the light fall off and bring highlights into range which I didn't bother with on the distorted version.

    The issue that I have with this lens (and maybe the other Rodenstocks) is that the images seem lifeless to me - probably because the designers have traded local contrast for sharpness.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Woody, ALC does work on CS5/32, not on the 64 bit version.

    Looking back through this thread I am really confused. The primary reason I ordered an IQ180 is to quickly check tech camera focus on a good display. That would really broaden my capabilities.

    If I am using a tech camera, it is because I need both quality optics and movements. Now comes the gotcha. The 180 has limitations with movements and, no, it is not just with the Schneiders. Shift a 40HRW by 15mm and color cast correction and local color/contrast are often challenged (to my eyes) even with a 50MP back. The 90 will take 15mm but no more. If I go beyond this, skies for example, will often retain a cast - this after shooting an LCC for each moved shot. I am left with all sorts of painful post to do.

    So I have set my own movement limits for the 50MP - 15mm on the 90HRW and 12mm on the 40. What I want from Phase is to know that I can get 75% of that with the IQ180. That is what I am still confused about. Is the IQ180 just a wonderful technology for DF shooters, or is it a real advance for tech camera users who can accept only a bit less shift than they had with the earlier CCDs?

    Yes, I can clear all this up for myself but by then I will have taken delivery. Right now, I still have options.

    I greatly appreciate all the information being posted here, but this is a fundamental performance issue. Given that Phase positions itself as the best back for tech cameras, I would like to them take some official position.

    Peter

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Nicely put. I'm a huge +1 on that...



    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Woody, ALC does work on CS5/32, not on the 64 bit version.

    Looking back through this thread I am really confused. The primary reason I ordered an IQ180 is to quickly check tech camera focus on a good display. That would really broaden my capabilities.

    If I am using a tech camera, it is because I need both quality optics and movements. Now comes the gotcha. The 180 has limitations with movements and, no, it is not just with the Schneiders. Shift a 40HRW by 15mm and color cast correction and local color/contrast are often challenged (to my eyes) even with a 50MP back. The 90 will take 15mm but no more. If I go beyond this, skies for example, will often retain a cast - this after shooting an LCC for each moved shot. I am left with all sorts of painful post to do.

    So I have set my own movement limits for the 50MP - 15mm on the 90HRW and 12mm on the 40. What I want from Phase is to know that I can get 75% of that with the IQ180. That is what I am still confused about. Is the IQ180 just a wonderful technology for DF shooters, or is it a real advance for tech camera users who can accept only a bit less shift than they had with the earlier CCDs?

    Yes, I can clear all this up for myself but by then I will have taken delivery. Right now, I still have options.

    I greatly appreciate all the information being posted here, but this is a fundamental performance issue. Given that Phase positions itself as the best back for tech cameras, I would like to them take some official position.

    Peter

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Woody, ALC does work on CS5/32, not on the 64 bit version.

    Looking back through this thread I am really confused. The primary reason I ordered an IQ180 is to quickly check tech camera focus on a good display. That would really broaden my capabilities.

    If I am using a tech camera, it is because I need both quality optics and movements. Now comes the gotcha. The 180 has limitations with movements and, no, it is not just with the Schneiders. Shift a 40HRW by 15mm and color cast correction and local color/contrast are often challenged (to my eyes) even with a 50MP back. The 90 will take 15mm but no more. If I go beyond this, skies for example, will often retain a cast - this after shooting an LCC for each moved shot. I am left with all sorts of painful post to do.

    So I have set my own movement limits for the 50MP - 15mm on the 90HRW and 12mm on the 40. What I want from Phase is to know that I can get 75% of that with the IQ180. That is what I am still confused about. Is the IQ180 just a wonderful technology for DF shooters, or is it a real advance for tech camera users who can accept only a bit less shift than they had with the earlier CCDs?

    Yes, I can clear all this up for myself but by then I will have taken delivery. Right now, I still have options.

    I greatly appreciate all the information being posted here, but this is a fundamental performance issue. Given that Phase positions itself as the best back for tech cameras, I would like to them take some official position.

    Peter
    Peter - thanks - I didn't think of the 32 bit issue.

    I share your confusion - maybe Doug's work will help us sort it out. He has a full range of tech camera lenses and Phase backs. I do hope that he does the IQ180 and 160 side-by-side.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I think Doug is doing that today actually from what I read.

    Just a observation from everything I have read and seen I think the bottom line is your limits on movements will be reduced some and you will need proper LCC for everything you do to make those corrections. Basically your image circles have gone down in size and you just need to work within them more closely. You get outside the box it will get ugly.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I disagree, sorry. I must not have been clear enough in my earlier posts. To reiterate:

    I estimated 17mm of shift before I saw image degradation at the corners with the 43 on my IQ180 -- this was from lens anomalies, and not sensor issues. I'm talking visiby soft corners at 20mm shift that looked like they'd be totally acceptable to me with 3mm less shift, or 17mm total shift. If you add a little for the diagonal on the frame for that rise, you get say 20mm on the IC radius. Now double that for the full IC diameter and you get 40mm. Add that to the IQ180's diagonal of 68mm to that and you get 40+68=108mm, or very close to the manufacturer stated 110mm of usable IC! IOW, I got virtually 100% of the usable IC of that lens! And to be clear, what I was seeing at the very corners at 20mm shift was resolution degradation, not LCC difficulties. In fact, LCC worked all the way to 25mm of shift, but the image was unusable in the edge zones, and again from lens anomalies, NOT sensor issues.

    Howeverbutt!!! I was using C1's LCC controls, not somebody else's, and I was using the new "Analyze Technical Wide Angle" to render the LCC -- and that is a MUST for the IQ180 to get the best LCC.

    Is that more clear now?
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    So I have set my own movement limits for the 50MP - 15mm on the 90HRW and 12mm on the 40. What I want from Phase is to know that I can get 75% of that with the IQ180. That is what I am still confused about. Is the IQ180 just a wonderful technology for DF shooters, or is it a real advance for tech camera users who can accept only a bit less shift than they had with the earlier CCDs?
    Yep. And we will be able to answer that very soon. Directly for the 28XL, 35XL, 43XL, 60XL and 70HR which we have arranged to all be here at the same time for this exact kind of test (a few by the generous loan of our customers as we did not have all in stock). Our previous test was limited to the 35XL and had some flaws in the testing procedure (just as well it was a good learning experience for how to best test this).

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post

    If I am using a tech camera, it is because I need both quality optics and movements. Now comes the gotcha. The 180 has limitations with movements and, no, it is not just with the Schneiders. Shift a 40HRW by 15mm and color cast correction and local color/contrast are often challenged (to my eyes) even with a 50MP back. The 90 will take 15mm but no more. If I go beyond this, skies for example, will often retain a cast - this after shooting an LCC for each moved shot. I am left with all sorts of painful post to do.
    Peter,

    What 50MP back and what software are you using in the above reference to generate and correct your LCC's?
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Jack, am I right that you are talking about 17mm shift left or right ? Did you tried it up ? so that you can see how the LCC corrections handles the sky ? Here was the main problem for me. I could not get good sky back with 17mm shift. Not withe C1 6.2.1

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Jack, am I right that you are talking about 17mm shift left or right ? Did you tried it up ? so that you can see how the LCC corrections handles the sky ? Here was the main problem for me. I could not get good sky back with 17mm shift. Not withe C1 6.2.1
    Good catch, and sorry! I should have clarified: The Arca I was using only allows for 12.5mm shift R or L, but 25mm rise -- this was 17mm of RISE. So you are correct in that my estimation for total IC may be a little off --- let me do some simple trig and get right back with a more exact number for you. Okay, back, here you go:

    the IQ180 frame is approximately 40mm x 54mm. If I add 17mm rise and fall to the horizontal frame, I get a 74mm x 54 mm frame. The diagonal of that rectangle would be ~ 91.5mm. So that is the USABLE IC of the 43 on the IQ180. 91.5 is approximately 83% of the stated 110mm IC.

    HOWEVER! I was able to shift the full 25mm and correct it, and though the image degradation rendered not useful image data, LCC appeared to work fine as respected sensor anomalies. Image quality was so poor however, I do not want to say I'm 100% certain that LCC worked. So with that qualification, if you accept very soft and distorted corners, the new frame would be 90mm x 54mm with a diagonal of 105mm, or very near the full stated IC of the lens; 96% of it. I suspect that Schneider is using the full circle of illumination rather than usable IC for its 110mm spec, unless they consider 2 or 3 LPmm acceptable resolution for the extreme edges .

    I did NOT see problems in the sky, but my skies were unfortunately gray. I did however shoot the Passport out in the trouble zone, and did not see significant desaturation at 12.5mm on the horizontal. 12.5mm shift on the horizontal gives a frame of 40mm x 79mm and would have put the color checker at about a 45mm radius or 90mm position on the 43's total IC. I would say given how much color remained, it is going to be a relatively trivial issue.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    The issue that I have with this lens (and maybe the other Rodenstocks) is that the images seem lifeless to me - probably because the designers have traded local contrast for sharpness.
    Thats an interesting observation Woody as I'm very much interested in the RS 90HRW to fill the hole in the (sort of) middle of my SK 43XL and SK 120N. I very much like "the look" of my SK glass so your suggesting the RS lenses are a little flatter in contrast so not a good match?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Thats an interesting observation Woody as I'm very much interested in the RS 90HRW to fill the hole in the (sort of) middle of my SK 43XL and SK 120N. I very much like "the look" of my SK glass so your suggesting the RS lenses are a little flatter in contrast so not a good match?
    How big is the image circle on the 90HR-W? On the SK90 it is 90mm. I like the lens on my P40+. I haven't gotten my new back yet but hopefully soon I can test out my 90 on it.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Re how Schneiders v Rodies render. I personally prefer Schneider's look, however I feel the Rodies are actually technically sharper in the center and show more local contrast than Schneiders -- but in a way that leaves them looking almost sterile for lack of a better word; like drinking water so pure it has no taste. So if my "sterile" = Woody's "lifeless" we are in agreement. However, I also would say this is a really, really subtle call based on my looking at many tens of thousands of different images from different lenses over the years. Moreover, I think a lot of life can be added during post using some artistic license and secret sauce editing
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Jack which arca ? The rm3d allows 15 as far as I know, or at least mine does.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    How big is the image circle on the 90HR-W? On the SK90 it is 90mm. I like the lens on my P40+. I haven't gotten my new back yet but hopefully soon I can test out my 90 on it.
    The 90HRW has an IC of 125mm and also a longer FF distance so in theory should be better regarding fall off and LCC corrections with larger movements.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Jack which arca ? The rm3d allows 15 as far as I know, or at least mine does.
    I was using an older RM3D non i and it allowed 12.5mm R and L shift only.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I you sure about that ? From the specs: "In der Horizontalen lässt sie sich um 40mm und in der Vertikalen (siehe Abb.7) um 30mm mittels der seitlichen Drehknöpfe verschieben. "

    in English it means as much as "30mm shift left/right and 40mm fall" which would mean yours should have 15mm as well ;-)

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