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Thread: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I you sure about that ? From the specs: "In der Horizontalen lässt sie sich um 40mm und in der Vertikalen (siehe Abb.7) um 30mm mittels der seitlichen Drehknöpfe verschieben. "

    in English it means as much as "30mm shift left/right and 40mm fall" which would mean yours should have 15mm as well ;-)
    My error. On the one I have, it has a "0", then three hash marks, then a "10", then one more hash mark beyond "10" in each direction. I assumed each hash mark is 2.5mm since they are equally spaced between the "0" and "10", so adding on 2.5mm for the last one, I got to 12.5mm. I now see that I can shift past those last marks if I push the screws all the way to the stops. It is a borrowed camera so I never forced any of the movements when I shot with it, hence I never went past the last hash mark which is at 12.5mm and just assumed that was the limit -- sorry.

    Bottom line is I am getting one of these jewels -- the newer RM3Di -- for myself, and I will be happy to push it to the limits for testing when I get mine. I remain comfortable that LCC will handle the extra 2.5mm of shift, since it handled 25mm of rise.

    Any way we want to slice it, I am comfortable stating that worst case on the 43 is you'll get at minimum 80% of the full IC on it with the IQ180 using the Tech-Wide LCC in C1. And in cases where corners are not critical, we'll probably get comfortably more.

    And I *may* get my hands on a 40 HR-W later this week to test, and if so I will add that data to this thread.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    LOL i think that is what i said a smaller IC. ROTFLMAO
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Peter,

    What 50MP back and what software are you using in the above reference to generate and correct your LCC's?
    Jack, I am using the H3D50 and Phocus. I have not done this type of thing on C1 but I look forward to trying it.

    Just to clarify, I am sensitive to how LCCs work - have participated in developing some in my time. LCCs always impact other image parameters, as you show for noise. I find a loss of sensitivity (the ability to see subtle transitions) in the bright areas (seen as a glare/patchy effect) and a loss of color contrast to be just as bothersome as cast. Others may not care as much about these things.

    To me, it is sky that is the key problem. I shoot airplanes so I tend to have plenty of it. To test, I would use a clean ground/sky image with cloudy sky at 90%, and move 15mm laterally in each direction. My experience is that the success of color cast correction is partially dependent on the brightness of the LCC image so it would be useful to try a couple of LCC images at 50% and 75%.

    It will be great to see CI's test images.

    Peter

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Peter,

    I have no experience with how software outside of C1 deals with LCC's, so cannot speak to them. In C1, it is recommended that your LCC histogram be nicely centered. Using Capture Integration's LCC plate (here: http://www.captureintegration.com/?s=lcc) over the lens, the usual correction is a 2-stop slower shutter speed so as to keep aperture constant. However, in some extreme lighting cases it may be only one stop or even the same exposure that generates a centered LCC histogram, so you need to watch that.

    I have one frame I shot with lots of cloudy sky in it, about 12mm of rise. The base exposure is good, and the LCC is perfect. When applied however, the patches of blue seem to remain properly saturated and of excellent color, while areas of white clouds become visibly brighter, almost blowing. My take on that is the lens' native falloff is acting as sort of a SND filter holding back the bright sky during our primary exposure and rendering a very safe original histogram; then when the LCC removes that falloff, we get too bright. So my recommended fix is shoot with a center filter, or at least shoot like you would if you had a CF on, meaning under-expose by 1 - 2 additional stops (depending on amount of rise and lens in use) to fully protect the highlights in the falloff zone. Only personal experimentation can tell you what the proper amounts are for that. Additionally, my intuition is that using a CF plus the LCC will make less work for the LCC and help limit the amount of final corrections needed. I can add that in C1 you can comfortably push an IQ180 file exposure around by 2 stops or more without significant degradation! Not sure about how other programs handle that, but that is my experience with C1. Finally, on the LCC you can dial the falloff correction from 100% down to 0% (or up to 120%), so in effect can utilize some (or all) of that original lens falloff to save skies; as an aside, I found that dialing back to 67% was quite pleasing on most of the 43 shots I took.
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Jack, I am using the H3D50 and Phocus. I have not done this type of thing on C1 but I look forward to trying it.

    Just to clarify, I am sensitive to how LCCs work - have participated in developing some in my time. LCCs always impact other image parameters, as you show for noise. I find a loss of sensitivity (the ability to see subtle transitions) in the bright areas (seen as a glare/patchy effect) and a loss of color contrast to be just as bothersome as cast. Others may not care as much about these things.. . . .


    Peter

    We're making Doug's life too interesting but in his testing it would be great if the "blue death" zones of the shifts should include some low contrast high light value areas of details, and some test for color saturation.

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re how Schneiders v Rodies render. I personally prefer Schneider's look, however I feel the Rodies are actually technically sharper in the center and show more local contrast than Schneiders -- but in a way that leaves them looking almost sterile for lack of a better word; like drinking water so pure it has no taste. So if my "sterile" = Woody's "lifeless" we are in agreement. However, I also would say this is a really, really subtle call based on my looking at many tens of thousands of different images from different lenses over the years. Moreover, I think a lot of life can be added during post using some artistic license and secret sauce editing

    We're seeing the same thing but Jack is describing it better. I could also call it "bloodless".

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Update: It appears I will NOT be getting the 40 HR-W to test. Sorry folks. I would sure like to rent one in Arca mount ASAP if anybody knows where I might find one.

    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Arrrgh. I was really hoping to see how the 40HR behaved before taking delivery of the 43mm. The test would have settled a lot of minds.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    We're seeing the same thing but Jack is describing it better. I could also call it "bloodless".
    So is it something that can be adjusted in post - adding contrast, or is adding contrast globally not the same as a higher contrast capture?

    The lower RS contrast must have some advantages like more detail in shadows or does it not work that way?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    It is a really tough characteristic to describe. The Rodie is just extremely neutral in everything it does. It is sharp, has balanced micro and macro contrast, very low distortions, neutral color and gradual falloff. All of those things when more present in varying degrees can add the non-specific impression of "depth" or "roundness" or "character" to the image.

    For me it's like drinking a great wine that is also so perfectly balanced in all traits you cannot tell where it's from.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    No Mojo is what your looking for bud. LOL
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Thanks Jack, I think I know where you're coming from. Not as straight forward as it all seems this debate as when you scratch below the surface there is more to lens choice than just this LC issue. Think I might have to try before I buy just to see for myself.

    The sharp bit sounds good but the sterility, not so much.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I love to loan you my roddie 40mm except it's not in arca mount.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Yes, that's why Leica M shooters have 3 (or more!) 50mm's: one's the go-to-lens, one for Mojo, and another for that - well why not have a third it fits in my pocket - depending on subject matter and light conditions.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Thanks Jack, I think I know where you're coming from. Not as straight forward as it all seems this debate as when you scratch below the surface there is more to lens choice than just this LC issue. Think I might have to try before I buy just to see for myself.

    The sharp bit sounds good but the sterility, not so much.
    I should have added you can manufacture some of the "Mojo" as Guy called it in post, but the net is that probably requires a lot of work on each image to keep them all the same "flavor"-- and it would require Photoshop ... But on the other hand, I say again I am talking pretty subtle traits and one person may see them differently than another. The upside is they both appear to be state-of-the-art excellent, so there's probably not a wrong choice.
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So my recommended fix is shoot with a center filter, or at least shoot like you would if you had a CF on, meaning under-expose by 1 - 2 additional stops (depending on amount of rise and lens in use) to fully protect the highlights in the falloff zone. Only personal experimentation can tell you what the proper amounts are for that.
    As long as the exposure itself is not blown out, it is better to dial the exposure down in software. When you correct for exposure by combining an LCC, global and local settings and vignetting, the quality is only affected by the combined effect.

    Example: if the LCC corrects for 2 stops in the corner but you apply -2 stops of vignetting, then the corner is not changed at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Additionally, my intuition is that using a CF plus the LCC will make less work for the LCC and help limit the amount of final corrections needed.
    This is correct.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I should have added you can manufacture some of the "Mojo" as Guy called it in post, but the net is that probably requires a lot of work on each image to keep them all the same "flavor" ... But again, I am talking pretty subtle traits and one person may see them differently than another.
    Jack,

    Good work! I could lend you a 35mm schneider but for the alpa. I would send the alpa as well, but it has one of those, what you call 'legacy' mounts (Contax!)
    If you have an alpa or can get a Phase mount, I can overnight it to you
    Victor

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by EsbenHR View Post
    As long as the exposure itself is not blown out, it is better to dial the exposure down in software. When you correct for exposure by combining an LCC, global and local settings and vignetting, the quality is only affected by the combined effect.
    Esben,

    Thank you for weighing in on this. On reflection it of course makes sense to adjust a proper exposure back in the software rather than the capture!
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    i was offered (ALPA) hard to resist combo 24XL 35XL 47XL for a very good price.. but to use them with IQ 180 I'm not sure now should I go for it or just wait.. mind you I've been waiting over a year now

    for some reason, seller doesn't want to split them up..

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    i was offered (ALPA) hard to resist combo 24XL 35XL 47XL for a very good price.. but to use them with IQ 180 I'm not sure now should I go for it or just wait.. mind you I've been waiting over a year now

    for some reason, seller doesn't want to split them up..
    Alpa is wonderful. The 24XL will not cover the IQ 180 (nor my current P65+ soon to become an IQ 180). So subtract what you think you can sell the 24 for and if it's still a good deal go for it.

    Paul

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Update: It appears I will NOT be getting the 40 HR-W to test. Sorry folks. I would sure like to rent one in Arca mount ASAP if anybody knows where I might find one.

    What do you want to see ? I have both lenses still here.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David View Post
    Alpa is wonderful. The 24XL will not cover the IQ 180 (nor my current P65+ soon to become an IQ 180). So subtract what you think you can sell the 24 for and if it's still a good deal go for it.

    Paul
    thanks Paul, thats not bad idea..

    does 35XL and 47XL decentered qualify as IQ 180 lenses in terms of coverage?

    seller told me his 47XL is decentered version/custom order therefore a little more expensive.. does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL and have you used one..?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    thanks Paul, thats not bad idea..

    does 35XL and 47XL decentered qualify as IQ 180 lenses in terms of coverage?

    seller told me his 47XL is decentered version/custom order therefore a little more expensive.. does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL and have you used one..?
    Sorry...I don't know the answer. I bet Doug would know.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    What do you want to see ? I have both lenses still here.
    Thank you Christopher,

    How about a 100% crop from both lenses at the similar and sharpest PoF in one of those original shots with the tower?
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Victor and Yat,

    thank you both for the kind offers, but I need Arca mounts in order to test.
    Jack
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    "Does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL ?" In a word, "yes."

    In two words, "yes, but." The decentered lenses are offset 8mm in their mount. They were an attempt to provide rise/fall or shift by rotating the lens mount. I don't think they'd be a good choice for a camera that allows movement, and on one that doesn't, you'd be unable to use the lens centered; you'd alway be shifted 8mm in one direction or other. (Check the ALPA website.)

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    What do you want to see ? I have both lenses still here.
    Hi Christopher, is there any way we can get access to some EIP files so we can study them in C1 in a little more detail than the jpegs here allow.

    Zero movements on both lenses and 15mm shift (or rise/fall) on both lenses would be really nice.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL ?" In a word, "yes."

    In two words, "yes, but." The decentered lenses are offset 8mm in their mount. They were an attempt to provide rise/fall or shift by rotating the lens mount. I don't think they'd be a good choice for a camera that allows movement, and on one that doesn't, you'd be unable to use the lens centered; you'd alway be shifted 8mm in one direction or other. (Check the ALPA website.)
    not sure if I need to go this route.. selling both lenses just to keep 35XL doesn't sound right for me.. anybody knows, how well or fast do these lenses sell?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David View Post
    Sorry...I don't know the answer. I bet Doug would know.
    no problem.. I will call ALPA and see what is their response.. I mean if these lenses sell well on the market I would do it.. but if they don't then I might wait or pay attention on what Jack and others do and decide accordingly.. Anyways I don't need to have three lenses for a starter kit.. but I would like to start with wide angle lens something close to perfect for IQ180 back..

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    thanks Paul, thats not bad idea..

    does 35XL and 47XL decentered qualify as IQ 180 lenses in terms of coverage?

    seller told me his 47XL is decentered version/custom order therefore a little more expensive.. does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL and have you used one..?
    You can get the decentered 47xl remounted in a regular Alpa mount for a fee. So definitly take that into account when factoring the price.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    You can get the decentered 47xl remounted in a regular Alpa mount for a fee. So definitly take that into account when factoring the price.

    Lance
    thanks Lance.. I presume remounting is done by ALPA?

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    thanks Lance.. I presume remounting is done by ALPA?
    Yes, you should speak with your regional ALPA representative, they can get you a price quote and turn-around time.

    Lance
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    Yes, you should speak with your regional ALPA representative, they can get you a price quote and turn-around time.

    Lance

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    not sure if I need to go this route.. selling both lenses just to keep 35XL doesn't sound right for me.. anybody knows, how well or fast do these lenses sell?
    Sorry for the , but the 35/47 XL's are pretty easy to sell. In fact I just bought myself a near new SK 35 XL for my Alpa on Friday so I'm back on a Ramen noodle diet again. SK 24 XL's have a harder time, at least from what I've seen & witnessed, due to the restrictions for best use on cropped sensors. That said, I might still get one for my P40+ as it is an 'affordable' super wide for single shot use. I can't believe I called a $3-4k used Alpa lens 'affordable' I guess compared to the Rodenstock 23mm or SK 28mm perhaps!.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    I'd like to repeat a couple of thoughts from an earlier post - sometimes in a long thread like this things get lost - to help keep this discussion centered. If you're not planning on using shifts on a tech camera you can skip this post.

    1. The typical shooter on the MFS and DB forum is a landscape shooter, heir to the f64 school of landscape photography. Weston and Adams (both of them) are the archetypes. Perfect image and print quality is central to the aesthetic. Weston accomplished this shooting 8x10 film.

    2. Many of us are striving to achieve similar results digitally. That's why we bother with Arcas, Alpas, Switars, and the rest.

    3. In this context "Good enough" is not good enough, and in any event can be achieved by easier and cheaper means than a digital back on a tech camera. Remember that we're looking for A+ image quality.

    4. I'm skeptical that A+ image quality can be achieved in the blue zone of death identified in lcc shots in many earlier posts in this thread. The lcc correction is using up dynamic range in the zone - whatever the dynamic range is in the center of the image it's at least three f-stops less in the zone as a result of blue zone lcc corrections, and the blue channel (typically the noisiest channel in any event) has taken a beating. The consequences depend on how the lcc correction actually works, but it may not be consistent with A+ image quality.

    I'll be very happy if someone can prove #4 wrong.

    But until then the important inquiry is where does the blue zone kick in (in terms of amount of shift) for various lens and back combinations. Based on limited experience I think that the 80 meg back tolerates less shift than the 60 meg before blue zoning, but again I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

    If you're not shifting it's clear to me that there is no issue - the 80 meg (or any other non-micro-lens) back produces terrific results.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 2nd June 2011 at 03:56.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    I'd like to repeat a couple of thoughts from an earlier post - sometimes in a long thread like this things get lost - to help keep this discussion centered. If you're not planning on using shifts on a tech camera you can skip this post.


    If you're not shifting it's clear to me that there is no issue - the 80 meg (or any other non-micro-lens) back produces terrific results.
    This is a schizoid thread. It plays to the insecurities of both new back buyers and schneider lens aficionados. I think your points re quality with the IQ180 speak to more general compromises of movements, and actually deserve a thread of their own.

    Anyway, many effects of shifting bother me. Some of it is a function of distortion, defocus and MTF degradation (also present in the periphery of LF film). Some of it is a result of color cast and the effects of correction (unique to digital). Really, if A+ over large fields is my goal, especially with movements, I still love 8 x 10 images.

    Getting back to deciding whether to take delivery of the IQ180, I do not get really high image quality in the lateral portions of shifted images. If I want top quality, I would probably not shift more than 5-10% of image circle on any MF lens that I have (Rodenstock 40, 70, 90, 135). So, my own insecurity is fairly specific. Can the IQ180 give me a good cast correction with a 10% IC shift with my lenses?

    The answer so far is a clear "maybe", primarily because no one else can tell me what I will regard as good enough. Sigh. Take delivery, test, and sell if I hate it. The 180 is a superb tool for many applications so the market for used ones will be good.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post

    4. I'm skeptical that A+ image quality can be achieved in the blue zone of death identified in lcc shots in many earlier posts in this thread. The lcc correction is using up dynamic range in the zone - whatever the dynamic range is in the center of the image it's at least three f-stops less in the zone as a result of blue zone lcc corrections, and the blue channel (typically the noisiest channel in any event) has taken a beating. The consequences depend on how the lcc correction actually works, but it may not be consistent with A+ image quality.

    I'll be very happy if someone can prove #4 wrong.
    I may not be able to prove it wrong, but I can assure you it is moot -- : If you shift to where you need 3 stops of LCC correction, then you are well BEYOND the lens' ability to resolve well enough to meet your original A+ IQ standard in the first place...

    From what I've seen, Cunin's 10% shift threshold is at least 80% achievable (); however at 15% one needs to test and see based on their own needs and criteria.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    ...

    4. I'm skeptical that A+ image quality can be achieved in the blue zone of death identified in lcc shots in many earlier posts in this thread. The lcc correction is using up dynamic range in the zone - whatever the dynamic range is in the center of the image it's at least three f-stops less in the zone as a result of blue zone lcc corrections, and the blue channel (typically the noisiest channel in any event) has taken a beating. The consequences depend on how the lcc correction actually works, but it may not be consistent with A+ image quality.

    I'll be very happy if someone can prove #4 wrong.

    ...
    Woody, not trying to prove you wrong - just wanted to add that if you use a CF then your loss of dynamic range in the corners is much reduced, sometimes even close to nil, with the benefits in noise control and color saturation that this implies, both in general and when LCC is applied.

    Still waiting for my IQ 180 to get here, but I think it's safe to say that using it on a tech camera (generally, and more so when using it with movements) without a CF would be a huge mistake in the quest for that A+ image quality that you mentioned in your post and that we all share.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Thoughts for the future: 1 - improvements in IQ are inevitable, hopefully from better software including C1 Pro, LCC, CS6, and Alpa Lens Correction ( or someone else's lens correction). 2 - new lenses will come. 3 - New firmware may help the IQs. All this may actually make the RL3 or Max the preferred panoramic bodies. A chat with the dealers regarding the experiences with their "large panoramic" customers may be enlightening. Not all of them post their experiences here, but they may have some workflow thoughts that could be gleaned and described here by the "regulars".

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Jack:

    If you're interested, I have a 35XL in Arca mount that you can use to carry out further tests -- I'm just south of Santa Cruz.

    Best, John.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Hi John,

    I may take you up on that -- I hopefully will get a camera in the net week or so.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    How big is the image circle on the 90HR-W? On the SK90 it is 90mm. I like the lens on my P40+. I haven't gotten my new back yet but hopefully soon I can test out my 90 on it.
    125mm. I've done stitches of 2 vertical frames with it with minimal overlap and very good results that require almost no LCC with the 80MP. The lens was designed for use with scanning backs that have effective sensor size of 72×96 mm. It has a 36mm/ 32mm movement range:

    HR-W datasheet
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Woody+Jack, I use the 43mm regularly on an Rm2d and have recently written a short essay on LL about my experience with our new special feature made for wide angle lenses. You may find it useful
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I may not be able to prove it wrong, but I can assure you it is moot -- : If you shift to where you need 3 stops of LCC correction, then you are well BEYOND the lens' ability to resolve well enough to meet your original A+ IQ standard in the first place...

    From what I've seen, Cunin's 10% shift threshold is at least 80% achievable (); however at 15% one needs to test and see based on their own needs and criteria.
    We're shifting for two reasons: increase file size with "planar" stitching and perspective control. Does a 10% shift threshold mean 5mm? Does 15% equal 7.5mm? With a 40x54 mm back shooting in portrait orientation and shifting to achieve a landscape oriented image it takes 15mm of shift either direction to achieve a 3x4 aspect ratio; 12mm of shift to achieve a 8x10 aspect ratio. 5mm of shift doesn't even make a square frame.

    Should we be dropping planar stitching as an objective?

    I'll do a separate post on perspective control when I have time to upload a few examples.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Here we go on shifting to control perspective. I shot a very nice wooden gothic church in Cornwall Bridge CT last weekend - one of these will be a post to my blog.

    I set up my Alpa Max, 60 meg back and 48mm Schneider digitar on a heavy tripod and my cube at a spot in front of the church that gave pleasant framing. All exposures are at f11.

    The camera was level and the back orthagonal to the plane of the front of the church. After experimenting a bit it turned out that it took 16mm of lens rise, with the camera level, to frame the church to the top of the cross and some headroom. I recentered the lens and took the same picture, this time tilting the angle of view tilted upward to clear the cross with some headroom. Here's what the images looked like after similar processing.




    I then used the perspective correction tools in LR to correct the perspective of the image that was shot tilting up.



    Of course the edge of the frame keystoned when I did the perspective correction which forced me to a tight crop, which I copied to the 16mm shift image so they can be compared. The key benefit of using the 16mm of shift (actually rise) is a generally more neutral and pleasing perspective - the LR perspective correction doesn't eliminate the magnification of the foreground (the steps).

    This is what 16mm of rise looks like.


    Finally crops from the tops of the images (the extreme end of the shift/perspective correction).



    The tilted up image has a slight edge in sharpness and is slightly noisier. As noted above the 16mm shift image has the edge in overall look.

    Either image with a bit more fussing could get close to A+.

    Part of what's happening here is the magic of a fairly modest wide angle. The 48 has a large image circle and as a 48 relaltively modest keystoning as the camera is tilted.

    My conclusion is that this that either solution is workable with the right lenses, and that 5mm of shift isn't much in real world applications.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Much of it of course depends on the final desired framing. If you leave a lot of cropping room and require only modest keystoning then a small amount of tilt can be enough. In some situations however the tilt will alter the focus plane so you will have to re-focus or stop down for DOF.

    The horizontal lines you are seeing in the shifted image crop can be corrected in C1 if it's a Phase or a Leaf raw file.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Much of it of course depends on the final desired framing. If you leave a lot of cropping room and require only modest keystoning then a small amount of tilt can be enough. In some situations however the tilt will alter the focus plane so you will have to re-focus or stop down for DOF.

    The horizontal lines you are seeing in the shifted image crop can be corrected in C1 if it's a Phase or a Leaf raw file.
    The focus plane issue wasn't important with this lens at this distance, but clearly becomes important as you get closer. Doing the keystone correction s C1 is a real benefit because it is done in a single pass with the other C1 edits. By the way 20 more megs of pixels and a lower base ISO and more DR would improve the tilted variant above.

    For me (assuming Jack's 10% shift really is 5mm) the issues boil down as follows: Am I better off with 80 megs and little more DR in every image I take, with an acceptable but not perfect solution for when I go on tripod in situations where I care about perspective (by tilting the whole camera); or with 60 megs in every image that I take and the opportunity to get 15mm of shift for perspective control - with some loss of acutance as we reach the corners (at least with the 48 which I believe is typical of the best performance available)?

    AND

    Am I better off with 80 megs and little more DR in every image I take; or with 60 megs in every image that I take and the opportunity to do planar stitches to get up to 108meg files when I get on a tripod, with a similar acutance issue?

    Anyway, I'll be mulling about this.

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    woody:

    get a taller tripod

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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    We're shifting for two reasons: increase file size with "planar" stitching and perspective control. Does a 10% shift threshold mean 5mm? Does 15% equal 7.5mm? With a 40x54 mm back shooting in portrait orientation and shifting to achieve a landscape oriented image it takes 15mm of shift either direction to achieve a 3x4 aspect ratio; 12mm of shift to achieve a 8x10 aspect ratio. 5mm of shift doesn't even make a square frame.
    By 10% I meant 10% of the total IC -- so if a lens has a 100mm IC, you can probably safely shift 10mm in any direction with little resolution loss and limited light falloff. As you get further out, resolution falloff AND light falloff AND distortions AND curvature of field all go downhill geometrically, so massive shifts can become problematic for some images. However, I maintain that it is very often not crucial to the image integrity that corners be "perfect", so this gives significantly more shift freedom for artistic purposes, at least IMHO... On the other side of this coin is with 80MP available in a single cpature, and even more if we stitch, it is probably advisable when in doubt, to shoot a little loose and crop.

    Should we be dropping planar stitching as an objective?
    No, at least not as far as I'm concerned! One of the main reasons I like the Acra RM design is the fact that both Rise/Fall and Shift movements are on the REAR standard so planar stitching, and even multi-row planar capture is a breeze. Then combined with the way it imparts tilt (or swing) I can do a horizontal planar capture WITH TILTS enabled, or a Vertical planar stitch with swing enabled. Obviously we cannot cross tilt/swing and shift/rise axis when doing a planar capture.
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    Re: Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

    similar with the cambo (shifts on the back), but you get both T and S on the lens.

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