Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

[Christopher]

I don't want to start a war or anything I just wanted to post some of my feelings. I will write a very focused review about Schneider and Rodenstock lenses.

I just came back today from snapping a few very quick test images with both the Schneider 43 and Rodenstock 40. While in a lot of aspects the Schneider lens might be the better choice for the P65 and so on, I'm not so sure about the IQ180. I don't want to scare people, but that is just my early feeling.

I mean the Schneider is a lot smaller, is cheaper, has less distortion and is a great lens. However the color cast was very stong. (As can be seen in Guy's post somewhere here) Sure LCC works, but right now not perfectly. The finished files looks quite nice, but there is still to much red in the corners.

I will come back to this topic after more testing and reviewing. Sorry could take a little, I'm quite busy preparing for a trip in June.

 

[Terry]

Ughhh,
I've been asking about this for a while. I was told the new version of C1 got rid of the banding problems and was better with LCC's. Are the color problems happening with no shifts? I waited as long as possible before ordering and finally bought the 43mm. How much better are your shots with the 40mm?

 

[Christopher]

Ahh, just noticed I kinda left out a few parts I wanted to write. What I'm talking about is with shifts. Without it is fine. Or at least more or less. However, once you are shifting the color cast is really strong. I really DON'T want to comment on the banding, yet. I can say C1 does a very good job now. 100 times better than before. I won't say if the problem is really gone before I have more time to test. EDIT: A note which should be clear, but just wanted to add it: As far as I know one has to use the new LCC option to get rid of any banding. I don't even now it the normal one corrects it as well.


EDIT2: To Phase One: Please give us the possibility to use to DIFFERENT LCC files for each raw file !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why ? Because there is so much DR in the raw files, that one nearly has to use the LCC (HDR) Method for getting all possible detail. Or really make the Highlight and Shadow slider useful. For now to really bring up the shadows they just make the whole image muddy.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I wish I had more time to test the 43 when I had the chance and not to scare anyone but I have a feeling the 47 will be less a problem. I did not like the fact you need a LCC on a straight shot on the 43. I shot the 47 on the P65 on other occasions and it was clean as can be. I know hate to make any call without further testing so just a feeling right now.

 

[gazwas]

Well I've got the 43XL and use it on the P65+ and have been thinking of swapping it for the Rodie 40HRW. Looking at the illumination charts, the fall off of each lens is about the same but after purchasing the SK I was surprised by the colour casts without any movements. See my post on SK 43 sharpness: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25510

The one thing that has held me back is the distortion of the Rodenstock as it seems quite a lot but if colour cast is worse on the newer backs then thats not good.

 

[PeterA]

I think what will become pretty much standard knowledge in a little while is that the 'older' 25 and 33-39 megapixel backs from Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar in many ways deliver more flexibility in lens choice as well as fewer processing issues - on a tech camera.

The only caveat to the above is already well known and that is backs like P30+ and Hasselblad equivalent are not suited/recommended for tech camera useage at all..

On a 645 body go for as many megapixels as you like - no problemo!

 

[GrahamWelland]

I heard from a very reliable source that the colour cast issues and banding is a particular problem with the 80mp backs. This was expressed to me a couple of weeks back when the IQ demos and first dealer drop backs arrived and were tested. A concern for tech shooters with Schneider certainly. I'm certain we'll be hearing more about this soon. Unfortunately it's basic physics/optics so I'm not sure that there's an easy answer for this other than lens redesign or possibly image processing techniques that might drop real resolution (like AA filters do) to counteract the issue.

I didn't mention anything before because essentially this needs to come from the parties involved vs 2nd hand, but since Christopher mentioned it ...

Note: I don't know if the latest 6.2 of C1 does a better job or not. I'm sure we'll know soon enough.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I could kick myself for not running more tests when I had everything in my hands last week. Wish I was able to spend the time doing it. Sorry folks it was a busy day as it was. But what I did get without the LCC on the 43 did raise a red flag and I did bring it up on another thread

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I will post that image again for clarity . The 43mm on the 180 back with no LCC. When I posted this we questioned the bottom right magenta cast but sometimes here asphalt can actually look like that due to heat. But even the sides don't look exactly normal. I never did shift this lens and shoot it shifted.

 

[etrump]

Ughhh,
I've been asking about this for a while. I was told the new version of C1 got rid of the banding problems and was better with LCC's.

Is there any confirmation on this? I swapped my 35xl for a rod. 32 and the 24 for a 23. With the p65+ I have been very pleased with the results. My iq180 arrives Monday and my fingers are crossed.

 

[danlindberg]

So, if you are a tech shooter then it actually is a safer choice to go with iq160/aptus ii 10 ? would that be a fair assumption?

 

[GrahamWelland]

So, if you are a tech shooter then it actually is a safer choice to go with iq160/aptus ii 10 ? would that be a fair assumption?

Almost certainly not that simple. Even those size sensors have some drawbacks in terms of lens coverage/movements/potential wide angle lens banding/LCC but obviously there are also significant benefits too!!

If you are pondering a big investment in this area then it probably makes sense to wait a little and see. The IQ180s are only just getting into people's hands and so it is inevitable that there will be more and more empirical feedback from them in the coming weeks and months as they get used. Personally, I certainly wouldn't make a knee jerk decision based on the little tidbits of feedback available at the moment.

 

[dchew]

Christopher,
What back did you use with the 43xl before you got the IQ180? I'm curious what your reference point is with the 43xl. On the P65 there is certainly color cast even in un-shifted images. IMO the LCC corrects for those color casts quite nicely. If you upgraded from a P65, do you think the IQ180 is significantly worse? Or did you upgrade from another back?

Also, regarding Guy's image. It really looks like this was shifted because the magenta cast is in the bottom not the top. Maybe Guy mentioned somewhere that it was and I missed it. The center tree is definitely different colors at the top vs. the bottom.

I'd love to help out with this analysis but I don't have my IQ180 yet. Patience...

Dave

The finished files looks quite nice, but there is still to much red in the corners.

 

[Christopher]

i shot some images today, will give some feedback soon. Just can't post to much from the road.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Rod from Arca was the operator on my shots . I played assistant and director roles. LOL

 

[dchew]

I played assistant and director roles. LOL

THAT is funny! Always nice to have three art directors on a job: the art director, the photographer, and the assistant. Makes for a fun filled day.

Dave

 

[jlm]

wouldn't a blank white frame with and without shifts clear this up?

 

[Christopher]

Here is a short roundup:

Shooting today with the IQ180 and my P65. ( 43mm vs 40mm ) Have done some side to side tests.
43mm:
- The colorcast and banding is certainly stronger on the IQ180.
- Unshifted the difference is small and not very important. C1 does a great job.
- On the IQ the banding is visible when the lens is unshifted. Corrects fine in C1 6.2
- Once shifted the CC and Banding is getting really strong on the IQ. The P65 holds much better.
40mm:
- More CC on the IQ180, but a lot less than the 43mm
- I can finally find banding. I have nearly never seen any banding on the 40. Now it certainly can be seen when shifting 1cm is getting quite stong when shifitng 1,5cm. Still a lot less compared to the 43mm

Other notes:
- When the camera is in landscape mode and shifted to the side, the color cast and banding is stronger on the right end then on the left. Especially the banding. On all lenses. So now I could say that Arca mounts all lenses wrong ? Or the sensor is not in the middle ? Or whatever. Same goes for the P65, but a little less.

- When the camera is in portrait mode and I shifting down (more into the sky) I have a problem. Well when shifting 1 cm it's fine. However, once I approach 1,8 cm I'm getting some kind of centerfold/sensor/banding/light fall off, which looks like a line/spot or whatever it is. I'm noting it, because I think it has nothing to do with my IQ sensor, but with a general problem. I think it is visible on the P65 but only when shifted more and a lot weaker. Will have to check again.

I DON'T want to create any panic. I bet most people won't see it and it is only really visible when it is somewhere with a smooth surface like blue sky.

I hope to be able to post some images later today, which show some of the stuff I am talking about.

 

[dchew]

Great info Christopher. Thank you for the effort!

 

[KWR Phase One]

There is some good information here and I have an APLA STC and if you use Capture One latest version and do an LCC using Analyze Technical Wide Angle you should see the banding and color shift go away. I won’t get into the technical reasons that cause banding but it is usually seen in areas like blue sky when shifting and using the LCC Technical Wide Angle will fix it. Or, at least it does on my system. I have also seen a few cases where a customer called me and I had them go back and do this and problem solved. If you can try using this setting in LCC and see what happens. Make sure you have latest version of C1.