Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock

[cunim]

Doug, I find that CCC image areas can look "strained" somehow, even when no visible cast remains. Something is going on there as a result of proprietary processing but never mind. As you say, if it works to our eyes it's fine and if it bothers me pick another platform.

However, I am about to take delivery of an IQ180, and I do shift with lenses in the 40-135mm range. Christopher's data generate some concern. Sure I can make my own informal tests but what a chore, and I am sure both CI and Christopher have other things to do.

The excellent engineers at Phase must have already compared the casts from 60 and 80 mp chips. No need to report proprietary software functions, just results.

This is not a dealer issue. It is certainly not a user issue. White paper time.

Peter

 

[dougpeterson]

This is not a dealer issue. It is certainly not a user issue. White paper time.
Peter

This is in fact a dealer issue.

We will do the test.

Are your lenses Schneiders or Rodenstocks?

 

[Plateau Light]

Wow this has me a bit nervous. I have been contemplating an Aptus 2 12r for my flexbody. I planned to use my 40mm CFE extensively.

Is this only a problem with a view camera wide lens?

I would really be pissed if I paid out the big bucks for a seriously hindered setup.

 

[yaya]

Wow this has me a bit nervous. I have been contemplating an Aptus 2 12r for my flexbody. I planned to use my 40mm CFE extensively.

Is this only a problem with a view camera wide lens?

I would really be pissed if I paid out the big bucks for a seriously hindered setup.

The 40mm CFE is a retrofocal lens and as such it won't present any real issue since its exit pupil sits farther away from the sensor

Its image circle is quite small so it won't allow large shifts anyway. You may still experience a small amount of colour shift that can be easily corrected pre or post shoot

Yair

 

[Plateau Light]

Yair

Thank you. FWIW it is mostly the tilt that I am interested in and I have been using rear tilt for years so I can keep the 5x7 within the circle of my 4x5 lens', so the rear tilt of the Flexbody has great appeal to me as long as the lens can resolve enough.

Thanks again

Robert

 

[cunim]

This is in fact a dealer issue.

We will do the test.

Are your lenses Schneiders or Rodenstocks?

Phase is fortunate in having you as a dealer. Thanks for taking on the load. I believe you can calm this whole kaffufle (Canadian - eh?) right down once the mystery is gone.

My lenses are Rodenstocks 40, 70, 90 HRW and 135 ApoSironar. With the 90, I shift up to 15mm on a 50MP chip and the CCC in Phocus works acceptably. The other fls also work at 10-15mm, if a bit less well. Actually I tilt more often than I shift, and sometime combine both.

My test suggestions: Make two sets of images. One of a highly diffuse light source and another of open landscape with cloudy sky at near clipping.

Uncorrected and CCC images at 3 degrees of tilt.
Uncorrected and CCC images at 10mm of shift.
Show that an unmoved wide lens such as the Rodie 32HR does not require CCC.

 

[dougpeterson]

[...]
My lenses are Rodenstocks 40, 70, 90 HRW and 135 ApoSironar.
[...]
Show that an unmoved wide lens such as the Rodie 32HR does not require CCC.

Given your lenses this thread shouldn't really bother you. The Rodenstock glass uses a different design (as explained above) which are heavier, larger, more expensive, and more prone to distortion than the Schneider XL equivalents, but do not have a very strong angle of light.

This thread is about exploring the extent and real world impact of an issue related to Schneider's lenses stronger angle of light.

And I'm afraid I recommend CCC (or LCC in C1 parlance) for 32HR and 40HR even straight-on regardless of the digital back used. Even if the color cast is hard to see in an uncorrected file it's often the case you can appreciate what the CCC/LCC are doing only after applying it. So I've never agreed with statements like "X lens on Y back doesn't require an LCC" - if it's on a tech camera and is shorter than 70 I'm in favor of using an LCC even if you don't think you need to. In the case of Capture One this also means dust will be removed.

Our plan is actually to do a multi-image stitch to the edge of the image circle with both back so you can fully visualize what % of the image circle is usable for each back, and what it looks like when you're getting towards the edge of the image circle. I don't think we'll add tilt in as it adds an entire variable much harder to visually illustrate but I'm sure your dealer can help you with the relevant math to translate a tilt into the corresponding amount of shift at the sensor-edge as regards the angle of incident light.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[rpb]

Hi Doug,

If every shot requires a LCC, even the straight on ones, In your opinion can these be done in the studio for every given aperture/lens etc and then kept as a LCC library. And then called upon when needed. Or are you saying that we need to take a LCC every time we set-up a new composition.

Rikki.

 

[cng]

Doug, I will risk jumping the gun and speculate (based on this thread and conversations with other photographers) that in the post-80MP world we now have two choices facing us with respect to tech cameras and wide lenses:
1. For maximum useable shifts/tilts – Schneider Apo Digitar XL lenses with 60MP (or lower) sensors.
2. For maximum resolution – 80MP sensors with Rodenstock HR-W/HR-S lenses.

TANSTAAFL (Robert Heinlein).

EDIT: The above is admittedly simplistic, but I suspect it's a good summary of where we are currently at with our tools. I won't even go into the trade-offs with distortion / centre filters / physical size / cost / advertised MTF / colour rendition / etc etc etc.

 

[cunim]

Given your lenses this thread shouldn't really bother you. The Rodenstock glass uses a different design (as explained above) which are heavier, larger, more expensive, and more prone to distortion than the Schneider XL equivalents, but do not have a very strong angle of light.

This thread is about exploring the extent and real world impact of an issue related to Schneider's lenses stronger angle of light.

And I'm afraid I recommend CCC (or LCC in C1 parlance) for 32HR and 40HR even straight-on regardless of the digital back used. Even if the color cast is hard to see in an uncorrected file it's often the case you can appreciate what the CCC/LCC are doing only after applying it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

Doug, thanks for the informative answer. As I mentioned, I find that the effects of cast correction can be noticeable (changes in contrast and loss of sensitivity) on some subjects, even with the wider Rodenstock lenses. I have no experience with Schneiders.

Cast corrections are complex - my company wrote some - even in monochrome. Similarly, creating tests that are representative (as opposed to situation-specific) is tricky. Detector engineers have instruments that can project test images directly onto the CCD, which makes the whole process much easier and more precise. However, your proposed test will be very useful and I look forward to the results.

Beyond that, I'll know in the first day if the system pleases my eye and that's where the real test will be.

 

[dougpeterson]

If every shot requires a LCC, even the straight on ones, In your opinion can these be done in the studio for every given aperture/lens etc and then kept as a LCC library. And then called upon when needed. Or are you saying that we need to take a LCC every time we set-up a new composition.

Either way is fine. The primary benefit of doing it at the time is that dust can also be removed. The primary benefit of doing it as a one-time library is less work.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Don Libby]

While I don't have an IQ180 I have just recently made the move to a P65+ and have been using a tech camera as my primary landscape camera for a number of years.

When I first started using a tech camera I took the time to shoot a LCC library using all my lenses and every conceivable combination of movements. This work well for awhile. Then dust entered the picture (no pun intended). Lets face it, you're shooting landscapes outside and occasionally switching lenses outside. Outside can be and is a very windy, dusty, dirty place, at least where I shoot. The ability to shoot a LCC for dual purposes means even that much more to me as I can now use C1 to clear most if not all the dust that clings to the lens and sometimes the back.

I still have my library of P45+ LCCs however I've decided not to repeat the process with the P65+ The way I figure it is that I'll shoot a LCC prior to each image (I've been doing this for awhile now with the P45+). If I forget it's not the end of the world as I can always shoot one later so long as I remember all the details of the shot (lens & movement(s)).

I thought the same as Doug regarding the library being less work however it really isn't in the long run. Just thin how easy it is to remove dust in C1.

Just my 2¢ worth here...

Don

 

[GrahamWelland]

The other advantage of shooting the LCC with each shot, or at least with each set up, is that you don't necessarily need to remember or record the exact aperture/shift settings for the particular image.

For unshifted shots it's simple - shoot an LCC at the beginning/end of a sequence. With shifts I tend to shoot a blank marker frame and then a sequence left to right followed by the same sequence of LCC frames for that same setup. You only need to shoot that LCC once obviously even if you have multiple takes of the same shots.

 

[rpb]

Thank you for all your replies. much appreciated.
The main reason for me asking is that I have heard elsewhere that the light entering the lens (angle of the sun, etc) also effects the lens cast and that's another reason for shooting a LCC for every image. If this is true, in some situations where time is tight and exposure are long (sunset architecture etc) shooting a LCC for every image could be a major issue. Sorry for going off topic, Its just you hear so many different theory's on the best way to use LCC's.

 

[jeffacme]

However, we do have other customers that try to get along with cheap/generic cards with their high-end backs and that is something I do not suggest. You do not need the fastest or largest cards made (though you may want the fastest you can afford if using the IQ concerning read/write/buffer/access/zoom times**), but buying from the higher-end segment of either SanDisk or Lexar is my strong suggestion.

**There will be a firmware update in June to enable the latest CF UDMA specs to take advantage of the new crazy-fast cards available.

Doug Peterson

Doug I agree with all of your points regarding LCC and tech view/camera use but with regard to "cheap CF cards" we part ways.

I use both high end and commodity CF cards and after 12 TB of shooting have never had a CF card failure. Most of the failures I have heard of relate more to formatting either in the computer or across systems rather than the card itself. I shoot Phase One and Canon 1ds systems, always format in the camera, use my cards in either system and am careful to format at the start of each shoot.

The temptation is great to believe that more expensive cards are somehow better but I have not seen it in practical use.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Until it fails. Consider yourself lucky to be really honest. I have been shooting digital for 21 years full time( since day one almost) and i have seen nightmares out there with cards and card readers getting corrupted files. Been through every system out there and everyone of them at some point had at least 1 image failure if not many or whole cards go bad. For the money sorry this is a bad plan and a risk i will never take with clients. I don't even mix cards between systems. Paranoid you bet.

These are risks not worth taking IMHO

 

[Don Libby]

I agree with Doug and Guy on this. I use nothing but SanDisk cards on all 3-cameras. I'd rather pay a little extra for peace of mind plus when you stop and think about the cost of a card is so small compared to the cost of the camera or for that matter the cost of getting the shot. I just paid $130 for a new 16GB SanDisk Extreme Pro and didn't bat an eye.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Bought three of them Don this week same thing. No wonder B&H is out of stock now. LOL

Those three will be dedicated to the Phase and my 2 Extremes will got to the Sony when my IQ 160 comes in.

Now folks this is me and please do not take it not to do whatever you want. Its a recommendation and as a Pro , Instructor, Consultant.

 

[Don Libby]

Bought three of them Don this week same thing. No wonder B&H is out of stock now. LOL

Those three will be dedicated to the Phase and my 2 Extremes will got to the Sony when my IQ 160 comes in.

Now folks this is me and please do not take it not to do whatever you want. Its a recommendation and as a Pro , Instructor, Consultant.

What Guy said.

Just for kicks and giggles think of it this way (at least I did) - P65+ $24000 cost of 16gb card $130. The card turns out to be .0054166 the cost of the P65+.

What's your peace of mind worth?

Don

I'm kicking myself now for not picking up 2 - now I have to wait until they come back in stock ...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

BTW folks and not joking be really careful where you buy cards from. I have bought fakes before on e-bay and its a real problem out there. Buy from a reputable place. Here I highly recommend B&H or a good dealer.