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Thread: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

  1. #1
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    Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Hi Guys,

    I got my IQ 2 days ago, I only played around and I had 60 count.

    Today I took some more testing and I notice in the LCD (right bottom corner) there is a square purple tint about 1/4 the size of the preview image. It shows in the focus mask and highlight too. The actual image is fine nothing in Capture one although the initial loading preview show the tint in a second then it is gone.

    I reset to default, unplug the battery or the back, but it is still there.

    Oh my God for a 45K back, where is the QC? All the "SUPER CHEAP" DSLRs I bought in the past never have any defect...or maybe I'm lucky

    Can someone from Phase One tell me what is going on?



    Thanks,
    Dan

  2. #2
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Have you contacted your dealer?
    Don Libby
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    nop it is 12AM now i just found out 15 mins ago

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Looks like a defective rear display for sure -- should not affect your images, but definitely contact your dealer to get it repaired/replaced.
    Jack
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  5. #5
    Garcia
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    It's not the display, is the CCD or electronics arround it. Yellow/magenta squares.

    C1 makes some magic and picture looks fine.

    I've seen this defect or feature ( an awful one ), not sure , in my second Aptus 12 ,specially noticeable at high ISO settings. For some unknown reasons, Leaf Capture was able to automatically correct de picture but C1 didn't , not at least before last Aptus firmware upgrade. Now C1 takes care of the problem too , but yellowish rectangle is still visible on LCD screen.

    Last edited by Garcia; 26th May 2011 at 10:56.

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    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Do all of your images in the preview exhibit this ? It looks similar to some LCC shots before they are analyzed/corrected in Capture One.

    I see you are shooting a white wall or something, is it there if you expose it correctly?

    I do not think it is your display, but possibly something with that particular exposure.

    Lance
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I'm not sure if I'm correct, bit what you see is the sensor which is "stitched" from 4/8 parts. Th back itself has no correction for centerfold or what ever you want to call it that is done in C1. Now because the new LCD is so good one suddenly sees that stuff, which before wasn't visible on the crappy LCD phase had on the preivous backs.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I was playing with it in the shopping mall at night. So the lighting was fluorescent. It was fine for a while then it started to show up the pink file. It was iso 200-400 IIQ L and some S+ 800 + 1600 setting.

    I did more test at home around 15+ shutters and they all has the purple.

    This morning did some more test and it is goneeeee ( I unplug the battery overnite) weird.

    under what setting do you think it is happen? I think it is a bug

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I did expose pretty close in the mall but at home it was just whatever

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I did not realize that was an actual image since it doesn't look like anything other than gray and white bars, sorry. So given it's an image, do you have latency at short or normal? I also note you are at ISO 800, so sensor anomalies are going to be more prominent on the rear LCD display since the back's built-in calibration file is not applied in the LCD view. Why it looks fine in C1.
    Jack
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Btw, I rest my case ... http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...284#post304284 - call me a cynic if you want. However, I DO have every confidence that these initial teething problems will get resolved as more backs get into the hands of customers. Certainly we might expect that once Phase One have begun to satisfy the IQ180 demand (what a nice problem to have!!), the subsequent IQ160 and IQ140 releases will benefit from the fixes.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    normal all default setting

    here is phase one feedback:
    The issue you are seeing is not a result of poor quality control.
    May I ask what conditions and settings you have the back configured for? Also, who is your Phase One Dealer?

    The display and resulting preview image is quite robus, more so than any other product, however it is not as robust as a Computer and Capture One software can provide. The display is fine and not at fault based on your description, what you are seeing is the RAW file without complete corrections that the Software can show you. Depending on the conditions you are shooting under, the back may not be able to show you the proper balance between all 4 quadrants of the CCD, which the software can properly display. To do this the back would have to process/anylize the image quite a bit more and, at 80MPX (a sizeable difference from Super Cheap DSLRs) it would take a bit more time and slow down your capture rate. As such, it is better to use the screen to check focus, composition, subject and exposure on the screen but leave the heavy preview render to Capture One for these specific back configuations.

    Kind Regards,
    Phase One Support


    I took the samples in 2 different location, using iso 200-400 and S+ 800-1600. There were about 15+ images with the purple square, it is not just 1 case.

    It is gone now, but I cant help my self to think what is the reason? Bug? initial release problem?

  13. #13
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    After reading some technical docs from Dalsa, I realize that CCD chip info is read by means of not one, but four shift registers, one for every quadrant, so they can speed-up reading process. Hence, tolerances in A/D converter, preamplifiers and other electronics can lead to small differences in color temp between quadrants.

    Some kind of calibration file with this an other info about particular behavior should be created at factory and took in account every time a raw file is debayered, an intensive process that couldn't be done by the back itself in order to free some computing recurses and let them available for other tasks as Phase One points.

    Question now is how well balanced or perfect is my back.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    That's kinda what I tried to explain.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    If any other owner ever experience this please tell so I dont feel lonely all alone here

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    As such, it is better to use the screen to check focus, composition, subject and exposure on the screen but leave the heavy preview render to Capture One for these specific back configurations.
    That's a bit of a lame excuse from P1!

    How on earth "under those difficult circumstances" you can judge composition and exposure when all four corners of your image previews are different colours and exposures I've no idea?

    I'm glad the removal of the battery solved your problem. It does seem to contradict the P1 support reply that it's down to the difficulty of the environment/settings you used for the back to render the preview correctly but removing the battery cleared the problem.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Well I also removed it yesterday but it did not solve it.

    This weekend I will do extensive real shooting and we'll see

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    If any other owner ever experience this please tell so I dont feel lonely all alone here
    I have a version of the same problem with my IQ180. My P65+ occasionally shows the same symptom but for less than one second.
    Frankly, it is such a minor issue and I NEVER have problems with final rendered files, so I don't care.
    I am really surprised at the level of hysterics from some who have early backs.
    If you want to ride the leading edge of the tech wave, there are always small hiccups. Anyone ever run a new-release Mac OS in the first few weeks?
    Lighten up people. We have the worlds best digi backs in our hands by far. I've had mine for barely 2 weeks and there is already a bug fix update for it. This is a very good sign that Phase are putting a lot of energy into ensuring this back matures fast.
    Dan, you have the best back in the world. Chill man...
    Siebel
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  19. #19
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post

    How on earth "under those difficult circumstances" you can judge composition and exposure when all four corners of your image previews are different colours and exposures I've no idea?
    While I appreciate Dan's concern, no LCD is appropriate for exposure by any means other than the histogram. While his example looked whacked by any standard it doesn't imply that the display is flawed.

    At higher ISO you are magnifying any difference in the wafers by the same factor as the iso amplification of the sensor. Each sensor has a calibration but it is not fully applied at the back for speed and battery concerns. All of my previous backs p45, p30+, P65+ had the same issue but the quality of their displays hid a lot of that and I believe those backs displayed using the thumbnail instead of the actual file. I'm not saying that was Dan's problem entirely.

    The more telling symptom is the fact that letting it cool down or changing the battery (ie resetting) made the problem go away. It suggested a firmware bug that disabled the minimal processing showing true raw information which is ugly to say the least.

    I don't know the exact QC procedures but p1 tests every back, look at the exposure count and you will see how many shots they tried on your individual back.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    While I appreciate Dan's concern, no LCD is appropriate for exposure by any means other than the histogram. While his example looked whacked by any standard it doesn't imply that the display is flawed.

    At higher ISO you are magnifying any difference in the wafers by the same factor as the iso amplification of the sensor. Each sensor has a calibration but it is not fully applied at the back for speed and battery concerns. All of my previous backs p45, p30+, P65+ had the same issue but the quality of their displays hid a lot of that and I believe those backs displayed using the thumbnail instead of the actual file. I'm not saying that was Dan's problem entirely.

    The more telling symptom is the fact that letting it cool down or changing the battery (ie resetting) made the problem go away. It suggested a firmware bug that disabled the minimal processing showing true raw information which is ugly to say the least.

    I don't know the exact QC procedures but p1 tests every back, look at the exposure count and you will see how many shots they tried on your individual back.
    Ed makes some important points here. Firstly, judging exposure from the screen is pure folly. Histogram primarily, with exposure warning as secondary source of info.
    Secondly, the initial image displayed is a rough and ready version of the thumbnail, replaced later by HiRes data. I'd suggest it is possible Dan's back has a rendering issue, but I'd be very surprised if there was a problem with processed files. In any event, I think the people who can help with this all work at his dealer and at Phase One, not here.
    I am also curious if this phenomena is present when shooting tethered.
    I have over the years owned every back Phase have made since the H5, except the P30+ and P25+, and my experience of them has been that they are always very attentive to user feedback, even if sometimes their communication style is very Scandinavian - blunt!
    It is the intermittent nature of the problem that is baffling....
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I have a version of the same problem with my IQ180. My P65+ occasionally shows the same symptom but for less than one second.
    Frankly, it is such a minor issue and I NEVER have problems with final rendered files, so I don't care.
    I am really surprised at the level of hysterics from some who have early backs.
    If you want to ride the leading edge of the tech wave, there are always small hiccups. Anyone ever run a new-release Mac OS in the first few weeks?
    Lighten up people. We have the worlds best digi backs in our hands by far. I've had mine for barely 2 weeks and there is already a bug fix update for it. This is a very good sign that Phase are putting a lot of energy into ensuring this back matures fast.
    Dan, you have the best back in the world. Chill man...
    When you spent 40k for a product you expect it to work as it should. There should NOT be any hiccups. Sorry that i disagree, but when I buy a car for that money I expect it to run and nor have smaller hiccups when driving around.

    You are correct that is is great how phase looks and works on the problems which are there.

    Just as an example on my IQ back I wasn't able to delete a single image? How can something like that happen ? It should not.
    (Problem is fixed now with a firmware update)

  22. #22
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I would just like to see a reset of the firmware update on this back and reload it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  23. #23
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    When you spent 40k for a product you expect it to work as it should. There should NOT be any hiccups. Sorry that i disagree, but when I buy a car for that money I expect it to run and nor have smaller hiccups when driving around.

    You are correct that is is great how phase looks and works on the problems which are there.

    Just as an example on my IQ back I wasn't able to delete a single image? How can something like that happen ? It should not.
    (Problem is fixed now with a firmware update)
    I respectfully disagree. Whether I am amongst the first few owners of a high performance car, camera or anything with computers - I implicitly accept that I am a beta tester - regardless of the price. As long as software fixes the issue - I tend to be patient. Hardware issues and returns irritate me more - but they are to be expected.
    Does a tyre-recall by Ferrari make them bad cars ? Its the tension between getting a product to market and getting it perfect. Unfortunately the latter tends to always need real-world feedback. Now that may not work for you, and indeed doesn't for many - just look at the number of IT professionals still using Windows XP. But for the more adventurous - its all part and parcel of trying to get first mover advantage.
    You always have the luxury of letting the guinea pigs do their stuff first

    M

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Well folks i have been first out of the gate so many times it is actually a little scary to think about and this goes back to my days with Canon, yea a long time ago and I will be one of the first again soon. The issue is in all cases you are a beta tester for the first 3 months and just like any software release there will be a bug. Just look at Windows and even look at Mac OS. Seriously there is little difference. Believe me i have horror stories, no one on the planet gets sudden death syndrome twice on the same M8 and spends 9 months in Germany to get a fix. Okay. LOL
    I shot loaners more than i shot what i owned and that was 2 bodies. ROTFLMAO

    If I decided on the 180 i would have had it already when Jack got his. So the beta testing never ends. Its been part of my life for some years so i accept it. I can certainly understand folks frustration for sure though. But that is what GetDPI is about also is to help each other making things work for us. Having a venue like this instead of sitting in your studio or office venting to the wall. At least we can help each other.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Both Guy and Googaliser are absolutely correct. I am currently on holiday in Switzerland and have just volunteered to run some tests my IQ180, Aptus 12, Alpa STC and 10 lenses that Alpa have kindly made available for this purpose. The raw files will go to those involved in the process of maturing this new platform.
    The process is really no different to what early adopters have always done to bring new devices to maturity. Shooters from my circle of peers have been involved with this since the mid 90's and have been "beta testers" for gear from Leaf, Phase, Kodak, Sinar and Imacon.
    I remain very optimistic that we have an awesome back in our hands.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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  26. #26
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Have some data from Phase here that will be of interest. No I don't make this stuff up. LOL

    Guy,
    For your information, and feel free to inform the forum, the error that is the concern of http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26891 is not an error.
    In short, the RAW files are just fine and the display is fine, the issue is just due to limitations of the backs ability to render a 'perfect' preview. Rather than let the back take 20 seconds+ to process and preview an image, we thought it would be best to give the photographer near instant previews of their shot image. As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview, we give the priority to speed over accuracy. The back either takes a few more seconds to show the image or you get a preview with less than perfect accuracy (again the image is perfectly fine).


    Let me add from me as the new high speed CF cards get support in the next firmware update i would assume this would help a great deal as it would take less time to write to the card. At least that is what I am assuming
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Frankly i want fast previews and i want fast focus mask and my biggest concern is shooting fast enough and reason i dropped into the IQ 160 and the only main reason. Well money is a factor sure
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #28
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    yes, it looks as if Phase recognizes the speed importance, and they say they compromised for speed. If this means faster preview for tech cameras, and LV, as wellas focus mask, then that seems worth it. After all the histogram is there for exposure and the CF will have the 'perfect rendering'. The LCD will never have perfect rendering anyway.
    It is also likely the FW will improve over time.
    The explanation seems reasonable.
    Victor

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    yes, it looks as if Phase recognises the speed importance, and they say they compromised for speed. If this means faster preview for tech cameras, and LV, as well as focus mask, then that seems worth it. After all the histogram is there for exposure and the CF will have the 'perfect rendering'. The LCD will never have perfect rendering anyway.
    It is also likely the FW will improve over time.
    The explanation seems reasonable.
    Victor
    I find this all rather amusing! (even as a potential IQ180 buyer)

    After all this time we've wanted Phase to put a killer screen into their backs and when it finally arrives it has issues like this. Now it's supposed to only show up in certain circumstances but still bad IMO. The whole point of the whizzy screen was to have perfect previews but it seems not to be the case. And I know you shouldn't judge the shot exposure by the preview but I feel a good preview image, in combination with the histogram is a brilliant combination of evaluating exposure and the relationship/distribution of that exposure/DR in the shot. I don't think the preview is just for focus check but other may feel different.

    Then we are told this will never be on the final CF stored image..... great but this still sits a little unease with me...... "trust us, we're Danish"

    Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

    I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.

  30. #30
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

    I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.
    Sometimes you just have to accept that there have to be some compromises. This applies to every aspect of medium format digital shooting from the lenses, sensors and back processing. Sure, you can have perfect previews but it would take an unacceptably long time to produce them on the LCD according to Phase One (at least with their current image processing algorithms & processors). Maybe they can eek out more performance in software, but I know from experience that this is tough assuming that they're already pretty optimized as far as that code is concerned. This stuff sounds easy but is tough to do. Maybe in the future they can put faster processors in the back to address it also ... Want to wait for that? I'm sure that if you wanted to pay NASA prices for a back that they could build something with perfect preview capability today but I'm sure you'd end up with a different set of compromises.

    Given that this is a release 1 of the new back and software I'd personally wait and see regarding overall performance improvements. Just remember, “The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer.”
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I find this all rather amusing! (even as a potential IQ180 buyer)

    After all this time we've wanted Phase to put a killer screen into their backs and when it finally arrives it has issues like this. Now it's supposed to only show up in certain circumstances but still bad IMO. The whole point of the whizzy screen was to have perfect previews but it seems not to be the case. And I know you shouldn't judge the shot exposure by the preview but I feel a good preview image, in combination with the histogram is a brilliant combination of evaluating exposure and the relationship/distribution of that exposure/DR in the shot. I don't think the preview is just for focus check but other may feel different.

    Then we are told this will never be on the final CF stored image..... great but this still sits a little unease with me...... "trust us, we're Danish"

    Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

    I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.
    __________________
    Gareth
    As a person who owns a P65+ and has parted with his money for an IQ180, I am obviously interested in these discussions.

    If Phase One is listening, and given that their explanation is 100% as it sounds, then one possible solution is a user selectable option. (a) I am in a hurry give me a quick look at the image. (b) Give me a compromise between speed and image quality or (c) I am NOT in a hurry give me the best image quality possible.

    If Phase One is serious they could consider such an approach and let the user choose the compromise.


    Mal

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Ask yourselves this:If this was a comparable Leica product, would people be so quick to accept this compromise? Not saying I'm down on it, just that one would like to think we are all rational people willing to call a spade a spade. Perhaps they can work on some kind of way to render a better preview in the background between exposures?

  33. #33
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Both Guy and Googaliser are absolutely correct. I am currently on holiday in Switzerland and have just volunteered to run some tests my IQ180, Aptus 12, Alpa STC and 10 lenses that Alpa have kindly made available for this purpose. The raw files will go to those involved in the process of maturing this new platform.
    The process is really no different to what early adopters have always done to bring new devices to maturity. Shooters from my circle of peers have been involved with this since the mid 90's and have been "beta testers" for gear from Leaf, Phase, Kodak, Sinar and Imacon.
    I remain very optimistic that we have an awesome back in our hands.
    Cheers,
    Ha , Bryan , sounds good . I will have to pick up my sync cable in ZURICH anyway . So I will come along and check if you do your testing properly .
    ALPA is only away about 160km from my place .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  34. #34
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I have demonstrated the prototype IQ180 and the release version to a good number of professional photographers, enthusiasts and other imaging professionals and not one in the course of their evaluation noticed what is being discussed here by previewing images on the IQ180's screen in a normal working environment. They are all blown away by the screen and display quality (and of course everything else).

    Yes it is there and it is more pronounced in certain situations. Heck if you look at anything long enough you'll find some anomalies. I have not heard one person say this has impeded their photographic workflow. There is a valid reason for it, Phase One is aware of it, I am sure they are working to make this better. Would you rather they hold up production and not ship the systems? The files come out fine when processed which is what we are all after right?

    Were Polaroids perfect? Did you have to make explanations to the client when looking at Polaroids prior to shooting the the final film? yes…..

    The forum is a great place to share information, but if you really want solutions to these issues, don’t panic contact your dealer/phase one rep offline first and supply them with the specifics, because they are the ones who are going to get you a fix/answer directly from the manufacturer. Thats what we are here for and why you hopefully bought from a competent reseller such as one of the many that contribute here in this forum.

    What I am trying to say is lets see some real world images off of the IQ180's that are in the field, you did not purchase these systems to take pictures of the preview screen. I don't think one of the few short-comings of the system (that has just started shipping!) that has been discussed here are ones that are so bad that the images produced off the system are unusable.

    One more things my father told me, yes you gave your fiance the perfect stone(diamond), but don’t be surprised when she is sitting in the bathroom , and comes to you afterwards and points out a flaw…..Nothings perfect!

    Go out and shoot, in the meantime the danes are most likely hard at work looking into a solution.


    Lance
    Last edited by lance_schad; 3rd June 2011 at 05:13.
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I'm sure this is lurking in other folks mind, but ..... if I got this from a D3X or 1DMark IV, it would go straight back to them!

    I read, re-read, and debated before I got the ZD, and put up with the thing not even ready to take every image after the previous shot. Why? The IQ!

    As near as I can tell, MFDB has crossed into the realm of really really high end technology and without spending government procurement project kind of money for technology at this level, there are some rough bits out on the bleeding edge. That is just the way technology is. At the end of the day humans write computer code, and that is what we are dealing with here.

    Unlike chemistry, mechanics, and optics, you can get a much higher variance in the final or intermediate results with different data inputs. A regular part of signal processing that I deal with as part of my day job!

    What I have not seen and would like to is a description of when this happens, and the statistical analysis of occurrence, and based on that if this issue moves up or down the programmers task list to address in the next round of code updates.

    Dave

  36. #36
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    As a person who owns a P65+ and has parted with his money for an IQ180, I am obviously interested in these discussions.

    If Phase One is listening, and given that their explanation is 100% as it sounds, then one possible solution is a user selectable option. (a) I am in a hurry give me a quick look at the image. (b) Give me a compromise between speed and image quality or (c) I am NOT in a hurry give me the best image quality possible.

    If Phase One is serious they could consider such an approach and let the user choose the compromise.


    Mal

    This is an interesting suggestion and I hope no one minds if I comment on this, even though I don't currently shoot with any Phase product...but I have found this and associated threads regarding the IQ180 informative, not to mention how much I admire the technology of this and associated backs.

    Didn't Leica have (and still does to some extent) a similar situation with the current M9 and how it renders it's preview image? When a shot is taken with the M9, the 1st image that shows up on it's LCD screen is sort of fuzzy and appears to be of low quality/resolution. Initially when the camera was 1st released, one had to wait a fair amount of time for this preview image to render such that it appeared to be reasonably sharp. There were also quite a few complaints about this. One could see the jump from a fuzzy low resolution image into a reasonable one. The wait seemed like eternity (compared to the M8 and most other cameras where the preview image was in its final form instantly upon review). After some firmware updates, I believe the rendering of the M9's preview image was speeded up quite a bit (but only up to a point)...this without requiring the actual processor speed of the camera to be altered or changed. The "bottleneck" seemed to be at the processor level since using faster cards had minimal effect of speeding up this final rendering of the preview image.

    So the suggestion of providing user options to LCD rendering of the preview image as suggested, if at all possible via menu (assuming Phase's explanations are accurate), seems like a plausible option. If one chooses a complete accurate rendering of the preview image, it might though take away processor speed of handling any other shots that are either to be subsequently taken, or that are already in the pipeline for processing. Maybe a simple hit of a button can stop the lengthy "accurate" rendering at any time and have the camera then display the "quick preview" one. Just some thoughts.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd June 2011 at 05:58.

  37. #37
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Let me go back to what was said to start.

    As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview

    Now i have NOT seen this in the prototype or in the final version of the back and I shot it quite a bit. Jack has not seen this either or we would have brought it up. Not to say it does not happen just under certain circumstances.

    And yes it was mentioned firmware can maybe fix this and Phase is fully aware of it. And also mentioned we may have a choice to pick either way. I did not mention this since this is just talk right now and not fact. I don't quote talk or what could be done but facts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I think we all know that every MF solution has it's tradeoffs and the object is to pick the system that has the ones best suited to your needs. It appears that one of the limitations of this back is the inability of the display to render a perfect preview which is attributable to the size of the captures. Is this also true of the Leaf Aptus II 12 which has the same sensor size? I don't recall reading of any similar issues with that back.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Let me go back to what was said to start.

    As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview

    Now i have NOT seen this in the prototype or in the final version of the back and I shot it quite a bit. Jack has not seen this either or we would have brought it up. Not to say it does not happen just under certain circumstances.

    And yes it was mentioned firmware can maybe fix this and Phase is fully aware of it. And also mentioned we may have a choice to pick either way. I did not mention this since this is just talk right now and not fact. I don't quote talk or what could be done but facts.
    I can appreciate that in a closed environment like a this forum things can get a little blown out of proportion and my gut feeling this preview issue is a pretty minor one but as I said in my above post I find people's reaction to it a little amusing. IMO a flaw in the preview image on a camera that is being sold mostly on its screen just makes me giggle! Then to top it all off its ok and expected because it's 80MP.....? If the internal processors can't manage 80MP than why use that type in the first place and look for better ones.

    In most situations its not noticeable but I imagine when you get yourself into that rare situation it will be a frustrating problem thats difficult to get out of (read: clients looking over your shoulder).

    Like said above, if this was a Canon or Nikon it would have been sent back and forums buzzing with unhappy users..... 1D3 AF anyone.

    The IQ180 must be very precious to their users/owners and I'm very sure the previews will be fixed very soon and all will be forgotten. Still...... funny while it lasts.

  40. #40
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Well have to say Gareth and in no way am I defending Phase here far from it. I just never bought a system as a guinea pig that did not have growing pains and that includes all of them and this one is actually pretty minor compared to some i have lived through and a lot of them there are no solutions for. This actually has one or the possibility of having one. The real key here and this goes with any system anything outside the sensor and sensor setup can be worked on through firmware. I have had systems that could not be fixed short of replacing the whole sensor and sensor setup. Those are the ones you want to avoid. This one here is mostly a matter of balance, the processors on here can handle just about anything but most people want speed. I want a focus mask i don't have to wait on or a preview that shows me I am nailing it. Again I am not a guy that shoots landscape and has all day to play around either and most shooters fall in my camp. We want speed and want that speed to be as close to the Canons and Nikons as we can get as well. We need to remember this is not happening on every frame but in certain circumstances . I have still yet to see it and i shot about 2 k in images on the 180 between prototypes and final versions. I will have a demo again next week in my hands and will certainly be looking for it no question. But from many past experiences with these digital cams until at least the first firmware is out and some bugs addressed i take a wait and see and not panic. We should have a firmware out any day now and I know Phase well enough that some folks are not sleeping right now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    1. Even desktop computers and laptops have trouble dealing with an 80MP file. The IQ is doing all the processing in a form factor the size of a small book, so why expect supercomputer performance?

    2. There is nothing to indicate (yet) that this is a substantive issue being experienced by the majority of IQ180 owners in a majority of shooting situations.

    3. Anyone who sees this as an issue – or anything else for that matter – that won't be solved by PhaseOne is free to choose not to put their money down for an IQ180.

    4. As Guy keeps pointing out, this is the bleeding edge. There are costs and compromises for choosing to participate in technology this extreme. See #3. If you want certainty, then spend less money and get a DSLR. But don't forget that even the DSLR manufacturers have released their share of faulty products.

    5. I was thinking (and someone beat me to it) that ideally there should be a user-selectable option in the firmware to choose between fast previews that may be visually compromised and slower, more accurate previews.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Having been guilty too many times of rushing out to be one of the early adopters of a new camera system I have to say that it would be wise for many folks to let "the dust settle" before plunking down $55 large for any new product whether from Phase, Leica, Hassy etc.

    Inevitably there are trade-offs made when operating at the "bleeding edge." However most of those trade-offs aren't fully realized until the camera is out there in the hands of skilled folks who will push their limits.

    Jack's images from Yosemite show the value that can be obtained from the IQ 180 but Ed Cooley's P65 shots are also wonderful and are without some of the issues of the IQ 180, at least for now.

    I suspect that a year from now the guys and gals who need this tool will be successfully using it and these current issues will be long forgotten.

    Woody

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I agree that a user selectable option in the firmware to choose between fast previews or slower, but more accurate previews would be a very good thing. In my view it is unfortunate that the heading of this thread is "ANOTHER BAD BACK".

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Folks trust me on this one. This thread is being read by just about every Phase employee there is and a option here is not a bad idea and i am sure it could be done. Okay that was not from a engineer. I think anything can be done. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    I have done a couple real shooting since my last problem. No more pink square at ISO 35-400. I think it only happens with bad lighting condition and high ISO.

    I do have 1 more complain.

    I bought new Macbook Pro i7 2.2g 4gig ram. It takes 3-4 seconds to view 100% and when I scroll the preview,it takes another 3-4 seconds. This is unacceptable. Best macbook pro cant handle the file fast enough.

    In the other hand my PC has faster viewing, around 2 seconds (8 gig, raid 0 10,000 RPM HD).

    Phase One please fix this problem.

  46. #46
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    You need 8gb of ram now if not more and C1 is core hungry so it will love quad cores better than duo by 53 percent. I'm living proof of that now. I had last years duo core and upgraded to quad cores and I increase raw processing by 53 percent. Guess what you just bought a 80 mpx camera and you NEED horsepower to run them.

    Suggestion if you want to stay laptop. Here is what i have now and the 180 is fine on it

    2011 MBP 15 inch 2.3 quad core with 8gb of ram and a OWC 256gb Extreme 6gb drive with a second spare drive in the optical bay.

    If yours what you just bought is a quad core get 8gb of ram and get a SSD drive your pushing huge files now. Phase can't help you here this is simply a under power issue.

    Also turn off Open CL in the preferences. Update to the latest C1 6.2.1 as well. Try all the none purchase stuff first
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  47. #47
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    From a PC stand point I use a Dell Precision 6400 with 16GB RAM and a SSD for my primary HHD (second drive is still a spinner). Previewing the images from the So Rim after I downloaded them in the hotel was easy. C1 is running much faster now after the recent upgrade.

    You don't just upgrade the camera you also upgrade the computer too. I overspent on my computers knowing that in time my camera gear will catch up. Studio computer is a Dell Precision 690 dual quad core with 56GB RAM. I can't wait to see what a 4-image stitch off the P65 is going to look like and how my computer will react.

    Guy's right - think cores and RAM...
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Suggestion if you want to stay laptop. Here is what i have now and the 180 is fine on it
    Guy - exactly how "fine" is C1 on a 2011 MBP compared to a quad-core Mac Pro?

    I'm currently considering an upgrade from my current MBP to a 2011 MBP, but I wonder if getting a Mac Pro quad-core would be a smarter move. My MBP stays at home most of the time anyway, so I'd be willing to sacrifice flexibility if I get vastly superior performance in return.

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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Well a Mac Pro with 8 cores or there new systems would certainly run better . C1 is very core dependent and also processor. So the more cores you can toss at it he better and the processors are faster in the MacPro's . My issue is i need a road machine so i pay dearly for speed. Now these new MBP will take 16gb of ram too and i will upgrade even further but 16gb is 1500.00 so not cheap.

    But reality is if you had a choice than a MacPro would serve you better. But even my MBP runs the 180 files pretty darn good. This really comes down to what works best for you and if your at home or traveling. I will process jobs on the road that can get to 600 images or more. Not all high rez either but still a ton of processing time.

    Now I will say my MBP will beat some of the older MacPros it is that fast. If speed is your issue than you need cores, processors and SSD drives help a great deal. Lets not forget graphics cards as well as they will render your previews.

    Honestly since going to quads with even the same hard drives my raw processing speeds jumped 53 percent to the good. That is quite a feat. A 180 file full rez 16bit takes about 20 seconds . Question is how fast do you NEED to go. For many non Pros speed is not really a issue as your not having a client pushing you. So coffee breaks are great while you wait. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  50. #50
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    Re: Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

    Dont tell my wife

    Costs
    MBP about 2800
    SSD drive 600
    optical Bay Hard drive and bracket 200
    8gb of ram cheap 150 dollars or 16gb at 1500

    Not exactly too expensive but your still going to need a SSD or want one and a load of Ram on a MacPro anyway so those numbers will be high as well. Although Ram is cheaper on the MacPros.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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