Leaf Q's for repro work

[Ben Rubinstein]

Just spent half an hour on the phone to Yair, he's setting me up with the Leaf representative here. Just have to say, incredible kudos to Yair, he took the time out on his vacation and working in what isn't really his patch to talk me through options!

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Hi Ben,

I personally installed a multi shot system at the National Library in Jerusalem.

It was sold to them by our excellent representative abs.co.il.

They are using the H4D50MS for exactly the work you describe.

I am sure they will be happy to discuss with you if you would like to know their opinion.

David

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Thank you for that David! Is a mutishot back comparable in pricing to the Aptus 8 which I was playing with today which is already overkill megapixel wise? I have to admit a Hd4 does sound like a much nicer solution than the RZ I was using today and probably better than the DF we also used which was a complete washout.

EDIT, I'm afraid the kit at B&H is more than my entire budget and I'd be paying 15% VAT on top of that.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

OK, just back from spending some 3 hours with the Leaf representative.

We worked with the Aptus II 8 back on an RZ and a DF camera.

First and foremost the live view is nice! Far from perfect but certainly nice. Having spent some time with the files I believe that 40 megapixels is overkill for our needs, 28 (Aptus 6) should be fine.

We tried working with the DF but the lenses focus drooped when put on the copy stand unless held by the AF motor, it was impossible to manually focus them! This was with the 80mm shneider and digital versions. As this is going to be the most used focal length it washed the camera straight out. Having to rely solely on AF is unacceptable for our needs.

The RZ actually turned out files which were arguably as sharp and contrasty as the shneider lenses (perhaps because the AF wasn't quite as accurate?) which was very surprising given the older lenses! It certainly seems to be the correct choice in our case given the WLF, sharp lenses and price!

Wasn't there a packaged RZ with leaf back deal that I remember seeing? Would make sense but I can't see it anywhere anymore. Perhaps it was pre-DF and no longer exists. Shame. (edit, I see it only on the Mamiya US site, have to look into whether it's available in Europe and at what price).

 

[carl-b]

Wasn't there a packaged RZ with leaf back deal that I remember seeing? Would make sense but I can't see it anywhere anymore. Perhaps it was pre-DF and no longer exists. Shame. (edit, I see it only on the Mamiya US site, have to look into whether it's available in Europe and at what price).

There was here is one on ebay item number 280598495715 its from a seller in taiwan, i have seen an advert in one of my magazines for a shop here in the uk selling the RZ Pro 11D body for under 1k sterling new.
When i find the advert i will let you know which shop it is?

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

That would be incredible, Calumet have them for over 2 grand...

 

[carl-b]

Right i found the advert, Mifsuds is the shop. I had a quick look but their site isnt showing them at the moment.
www. mifsuds. com - without the spaces (hope i'm not breaking any rules)
Last time i linked to a shop my post wasnt allowed.

email - info@ misfsuds. com

The shop is open 10am - 5pm monday to friday
9am - 5pm saturday
10am - 1pm sunday

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Thank you for that David! Is a mutishot back comparable in pricing to the Aptus 8 which I was playing with today which is already overkill megapixel wise? I have to admit a Hd4 does sound like a much nicer solution than the RZ I was using today and probably better than the DF we also used which was a complete washout.

EDIT, I'm afraid the kit at B&H is more than my entire budget and I'd be paying 15% VAT on top of that.

Hi Ben,

The Leaf isn't multi shot of course so why not discuss with our dealer what your other options are?

I attach a document about Hasselblad for reproduction. Its a bit out of date - I need to update it - but it gives you an idea where I strengths lie.

David

 

[fotografz]

Ben, you need not buy a new Multi-Shot camera or back, and you do not need the H4D. My H2F/39 and certified pre-owned CF 39 Multi-Shot with warranty was under $20K. I did not need MS for every image, but it was killer when I did.

That said, you seem well on your way to a Mamiya RZ/Leaf kit. Most certainly the Mamiya kit will be the most economical camera system with an endless array of lenses and accessories should other applications become necessary. The reason many of the RZ lenses hold their own is that you are using the center "sweet spot" due to the much larger image circle AND there is no focusing system in the lenses (focusing is bellows on the camera itself). I'd still recommend the 33 meg Leaf back.

The alternative to the RZ is a Hasselblad V 500 series camera which has a broad selection of viewfinder hoods including "chimney" type magnifiers with built-in diopters. When mounted straight downward for copy work I used this type of finder on my 503CW (the lenses didn't drift). The V cameras take almost any digital back ever made. The Hasselblad V camera is much easier to handle than the RZ, and there are a billion of them out there. To this day the 65 and 100 mm Zeiss lenses bark with the big dogs. The motorized digital version is the 555ELD which is much tougher for production work than the RZ Pro-II with a motor ... or there is the CW winder for the 503CW which comes with a wireless release (which is what I used).

An alternative back on the 503CW would be the CFV39 which is fully integrated requiring no sync cords or adapters ... capture can be set to 39 meg rectangle or a Square in the Phocus software, which yields a 29 meg file. All Zeiss V lenses are fully corrected in Phocus with one mouse click. Also an economical high performance set up.

-Marc

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

All excellent advice from Marc.

Thankyou!

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

David, I took your advice and called the company here. I had been led to believe that there was no support for 'blad here though apparently that had been true until a year ago, there is now a fully fledged support network with an installed base of cameras including as you mention the prestigious National Library here in Jerusalem.

I spoke to the representative here, he's sending me a quote through by friday and we are meeting in the National Library on Thursday of next week for him to show me the backs we discussed in a copy setup.

What did get my attention was that he was offering a 40 megapixel back on a full H4D system including lens for just 1000 Euro more than the Leaf 28 megapixel back on its own. That's quite an incentive, especially as the DF system is worthless for our needs while an H4D would probably be at it's most underused state sitting on a copy stand given how much more advanced it is than the DF. If you gave me the choice between the Leaf 28 plus 2nd hand RZ gear or a 40 megapixel back on an H4D with full warranty on the body, and costing less, on paper at least it seems obvious.

Leaf UK are running a promotion on the 28 megapixel back which would more than equal out the difference, I have to ask Leaf here whether the same promotion is on the cards however I will be seeing the 'blad in action, have a look at their workflow/software and hopefully get enough information to bring the choices to the organisation with my recommendation either way.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Ben - maybe some more hints you should think about:
I am doing the consulting for the Workflow of the Bavarian State Library who run one of the largest digitization departments in Europe. They have a Hasselblad 50MS as well as about 20 Zeutschel and Kruse large format scanning systems, plus 3 treventus automated bookscanners to use exactly for the task you describe.

http://www.zeutschel.de/produkte_scanner.html

http://www.crusescanner.com/index.php?Page=0.3&Body=BodyGroup&Table=ProduktGruppe&NavID=100007

http://www.treventus.com/bookscanner_pageturner.html
http://www.treventus.com/products/scanrobotr-20-mds/videos.html


It all depends on the number of pictures you need to take. If you are in the some thousands to maybe 10-20 thousand images you may get by with a camera based system. If you are planning to digitze 100dreds of thousands of pages or even millions, then there is no way around dedicated highend document scanners.
Their software is very specialized ,batchable, database connected and workflow optimized. For example the BSB is running a Treventus scan system which does about 800-1000 AN HOUR semiauto for old and difficult books (- up to 3500 pages for new and flat books), with a maximum opening angle of 60 degrees, which is a must for old books. I saw you had the pages opened 180 degrees, this is an absolute no go for such old Books and papers, they will break in their bindings !
So if you do not have single sheets as on the other sample, for books you also need a special book holder which enables you to limit the opening angle and keep the pages from flipping during exposure. There are several devices, the best I know is the so called Grazer Buchtisch (made by Mr. Mayer from the University of Graz)- you can get a portable device which is suitable for sizes up to A3. you can take a look at this here:

http://www.hab.de/bibliothek/wdb/master/doku/20050924_Schoeppenstedt/3_digitalisierung.htm

http://www.gutenbergdigital.de/technik.html

you could use Google to translate the links from German to English.

a Link to the BSB you´ll find here:

http://www.bsb-muenchen.de/Aktuelles-aus-der-Bayerischen-Staatsbibliothek.14.0.html there are a lot of books online where these techniques were used. All in all 10 million pages online and growing steadily.

Greetings from Munich

Stefan Steib - Hartblei.de

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

David, I took your advice and called the company here. I had been led to believe that there was no support for 'blad here though apparently that had been true until a year ago, there is now a fully fledged support network with an installed base of cameras including as you mention the prestigious National Library here in Jerusalem.

I spoke to the representative here, he's sending me a quote through by friday and we are meeting in the National Library on Thursday of next week for him to show me the backs we discussed in a copy setup.

What did get my attention was that he was offering a 40 megapixel back on a full H4D system including lens for just 1000 Euro more than the Leaf 28 megapixel back on its own. That's quite an incentive, especially as the DF system is worthless for our needs while an H4D would probably be at it's most underused state sitting on a copy stand given how much more advanced it is than the DF. If you gave me the choice between the Leaf 28 plus 2nd hand RZ gear or a 40 megapixel back on an H4D with full warranty on the body, and costing less, on paper at least it seems obvious.

Leaf UK are running a promotion on the 28 megapixel back which would more than equal out the difference, I have to ask Leaf here whether the same promotion is on the cards however I will be seeing the 'blad in action, have a look at their workflow/software and hopefully get enough information to bring the choices to the organisation with my recommendation either way.

Hi Ben,

I am thrilled! ABS will take good care of you.

The H4D is great for copy work, simply because you can control all the functions from the computer, including the focussing. Very useful if your copy stand height is very high!

Enjoy your time at the library.

David

 

[fotografz]

Hi Ben,

I am thrilled! ABS will take good care of you.

The H4D is great for copy work, simply because you can control all the functions from the computer, including the focussing. Very useful if your copy stand height is very high!

Enjoy your time at the library.

David

Ben, to add to this ...

When you are testing, have the dealer demo the sound feedback/graph focus aid. If manually focusing at the camera, you can actually hear the frequency changes as you refine critical focus. While I rarely ever have needed this and haven't for a long time, we did use it to calibrate and shim my Rodenstock and Schneider view camera lenses for use on the Rollei Xact-2 that I sometimes use.

I can also attest to the focusing at the computer feature using a simple toggle buttons which I do use very often in studio shooting ... it focuses in micro-steps as much or as little as you want.

RE: lenses ... if you get a 50mm be sure it is the latest version 2. BTW, the crop factor of the H4D/40 is 1.3X, so take that into account.

IMO, if you can afford the HCD 35-90 zoom, you would not need any other lens for your application, and wouldn't need to change camera height to accommodate various sized subjects which would allow you to fill the frame for every shot using live view as a guide. This zoom is as good or better than any of the fixed focal lengths it covers, and the zoom doesn't drift when pointed downward (at least mine doesn't). See if the dealer can have one for you to see as an option.

Best of luck on your choice whatever it ends up being.

-Marc

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Stefan, I spoke to the Yad Vashem guy about the opening flat problem you mentioned, he mentioned the solution they use as a Kaiser 'book cradle' and photographing each side seperately. I can't see however how that would help for photographing the book when you reach the centre of the book. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I have to give it some thought especially given that the organisation has such a small budget, the entire budget is about 1/3 of the cost of those scanners for example and they need to copy A3+ stuff as well.

 

[EsbenHR]

Stefan, I spoke to the Yad Vashem guy about the opening flat problem you mentioned, he mentioned the solution they use as a Kaiser 'book cradle' apparently and photographing each side seperately. I can't see however how that would help for photographing the book when you reach the centre of the book. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I have to give it some thought.

Given the materials you describe, I don't think it is a good idea to assume the books can tolerate being fully opened. You probably need to place them in a book support wedge. For really delicate books, you may only be able to open them up a bit more than 90 degrees without damaging the material. This also helps keeping the pages flat BTW.

In that case you are best off photographing the sides separately.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The problem with a wedge is how to keep the page flat for copying without glass to push it down is it not? Currently I'm thinking of using the Kaiser Book Holder http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=5904 and only putting in one side of the book under the glass while using a wedge to push up the other side of the book outside of the glass so as to keep the photographed page always flat but never putting the whole book inside which would flatten the spine. Does that make sense?

 

[EsbenHR]

The problem with a wedge is how to keep the page flat for copying without glass to push it down is it not? Currently I'm thinking of using the Kaiser Book Holder http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=5904 and only putting in one side of the book under the glass while wedging up the other side outside of the glass so as to keep the photographed page always flat but never putting the whole book inside which would flatten the spine. Does that make sense?

Sure. It depend a lot on how brittle the material is. If you are sure it is OK to flatten the pages with a glass plate everything is a lot easier. I would be damn sure to check with the client in advance whether this is OK for all the materials, or how much of it where you need other techniques.

BTW, what you describe is still quite a hassle. It makes it a lot easier to get the image, but handling the glass (on and off and ensuring everything is flat) is rather annoying. Triple this if you are frightened that you might hurt this invaluable ancient document if you push the plate a bit too hard.

If you can arrange a wedge with the camera facing a page straight on I think the workflow will be a lot easier. Usually reflections in these documents is not an issue.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The problem is they want flat copies. I need the page to be flat not bowed out. Hence my 'hassle' solution which will keep the individual page flat but never flattening the spine. The book shown above was shot with this Kaiser book holder but was put in completely then flattened down by glass which would damage the spine in an older book. Reflections are actually an issue (the Leaf test shoot was done without the glass on top) but more than that focus/DOF became an issue with a page which wasn't flat, neither did it look very good as it wasn't a flat field words became distorted with the bowing of the page.

Of course I will make sure that I'm not flattening anything that can't be flattened!

 

[Stefan Steib]

Ben - for this there are so called plexi glass fingers attached to the edges of the page,
the opposite side is held back by a special side arm and also by positioning the book so to be able to use gravity(you can see this in the links I have posted for the Grazer Book cradle) actually the price for the so called traveller solution is not much higher than the Kaiser but the stand is much more versatile, has a complete Lighting already attached (white LED´s which do not harm the books), works up to A3 and can be transported completely in one suitcase. Forget about using glass, even this will harm the real old books and as such I see your items/samples. You will need some accessory black foam parts to support the differing heights, lead balls covered in black satin, formed as snakes and the forementioned Plexi fingers.
Tried, tested and used on millions of pages. This works !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan