Leaf Q's for repro work

[Ben Rubinstein]

The Mayer Traveller system from the videos Mr Mayer kindly sent me does seem to be very slow to work with and the lighting he confirmed is not sufficient for books which would take up the whole plate. The Atiz system is larger, A2 rather than A3, and although they don't show usage with older books the system should work just as well if used appropriately. The automated stuff is for Canon DSLR's, I'd be using an RZ with that system on one side only.

I've asked Mr Mayer for details of his bigger unit.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Okedokey!

Firstly I had a long conversation with Mr Mayer today. He can make the Traveller in A2 size and with all the movements automated using a remote. The price is just a bit more than the Atiz and to be honest it's a better system. The Atiz people sent me sample pictures with bad skewing of the pages, when I asked them why their system allowed that to happen they mumbled about software corrections. That isn't acceptable with a system of this size. Not for $16500 + shipping and tax for what is a metal frame with a acrylic glass plate (which they want $1000 to replace when it gets scratched).

I have to really thank Stefan for putting me in touch with Mr Mayer, it's not just me now but the National Library here in Jerusalem who are interested in the Traveller (I showed it to them when I went there to look at their Hasselblad) and we hope to go to the University in Be'er Sheva next week together to have a look at the one they have installed there.

In any case I make my presentation on Saturday night where we see if the organisation likes my findings and will spare the budget to make this happen...

Wish me luck!

 

[fotografz]

Much Luck Ben!!!!

However, you've done your homework and have a lot of great info and insights to share, so luck may have less to do with it than you may think.

What's that saying ... " Luck favors the prepared". :thumbs:

-Marc

 

[David K]

Best of luck Ben... and let us know how you make out.

 

[lance_schad]

Ben,

Sorry I am a little late in getting around to contributing some information to the thread.

We have a division of our company that is headed byPeter Siegel, that specializes in working with many of the top institutions around the world with their digitization needs. It is called Division of Cultural Heritage (DCH).

We have developed three main products that are part of the solutions we offer:

1) DT RCam Reprographic Camera -

Key Features:
Features & Benefits
Built to .005 tolerances to ensure image and focal plane are in perfect alignment
Extremely accurate helical focusing system
Compatible with a wide variety of digital backs
Built with the industry’s leading components
Mechanical or electronic lens options
Ability to stitch images together for maximum resolution
Perfect integration with the DT RG3040 Reprographic System
More Info

2) DT's RG3040 Reprographic System

Key Features:
Designed, manufactured, and installed to exacting tolerances, the DT RG3040 creates the highest quality images. It includes:
A 30” x 40” reprographic table with a heavy duty, moveable electronically controlled column.
Fully aligned components CNC (Computer Numerical Controlled) machined to .005” to ensure even focus across image plane.
A utility shelf to hold lighting generator and camera accessories.
Four casters with adjustable and retractable dampeners for mobility, work surface alignment, and elimination of table vibration. This ensures the highest quality reproduction.
More Info

3) BC100 Book Capture System (NEW)

Key Features:
Dual Camera Book Capture System with incredible rate of capture.
Capable of shooting bound and loose materials, including works on paper, serials, loose manuscripts, photos, and drawings, etc.
Digital Camera Heads meet preservation grade imaging criteria including the FAGDI standard guidelines.
Software delivers preservation grade TIFFs, JPEGs, and PDFSs in RGB, grayscale, and CMYK modes. Open Source Raw and DNG also supported.
The BC100 is the only true 48 bit system on the market.
Its open platform design allows the camera and capture device to be upgraded.
Cross platform compatibility with our DT RCam Reprographic Camera for increased versatility.
Variable resolution options available.
The 100° glass platten enables the digitization of A2 materials per side.
Durable design for years of uninterrupted, reliable use.
Easy to operate.


All of these products were designed and manufactured by us to meet the demands of the institutions we work with. We have listened to the Cultural Heritage Community and have had their involvement during the design and development processes so that we can provide best of breed solutions.

Here is a new brochure that we are just finishing up that for our Division Of Cultural Heritage.

Again for more info Peter Siegel is the person who heads up this division @ Digital Transitions. Shoot him an email , he would be happy to assist you.

Hope these products may be able to assist you with your project or give you some ideas.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Hi Lance,

Yair Shahar actually pointed me towards your BC100 system but the information on your site is very limited, no photos even and to be honest I didn't linger long. I see now from your pdf that it's a bigger and better made solution than the Atiz while using the same design principle which most seem to use these days, heck there's a big DIY movement using the same concept.

I have to be honest in that I'm scared to ask the price of that unit, even the shipping of something that weight (1225lbs) to Jerusalem would be scary!

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Email sent to Peter. If he gets me a quote and more details by tomorrow I'll include the unit in my presentation.

 

[lance_schad]

We just posted a new video demonstrating the BC100.

Pictures do not do it justice, you have to see it in action.

BC100 Book Capture System

I know we have a few of these placed already at some major institutions with success, and we will be showing it at the ALA Annual in New Orleans later this month.

Lance

 

[David K]

That BC 100 is really impressive... Thanks for the link to the video Lance.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Impressive but for a few things. Firstly you're still using glass on the page (bad idea I'm informed for old books), secondly it's a very big and heavy monster if you need to ship it, thirdly it's wooooooooow expensive relative to other options (albeit the price is justified by build and quality, use of 40 megapixel backs on each side, etc). If you're looking at digitalizing books then buying a scanner such as the Treventus machines that Stefan mentioned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlOQuuLYavY) makes more sense, this is a lot more work in comparison to an automatic scanner, a lot slower and still more expensive. Admittedly you will have more resolution and a true 16 bit workflow using the BC-100 with medium format backs but at some point you have to ask yourself just how much resolution do I need for a book page? A question I'll be discussing at this meeting tonight.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Had the meeting, they want 40 megapixels as a minimum which I'm rather suprised at. Whether they go for it I don't know, it's apparently me and this gear or an outside contractor who has wowed them with his experience (http://www.ardonbarhama.com) but would cost a fortune for the 2000+ books they say they have (about 10 times the amount and that's without metadata entry).

 

[Shashin]

Ben, if you need 40MP and are on a budget, a Pentax 645D, Pentax 120mm macro, and a Pentax Refconverter (90 degree-angle viewfinder attachment) might be an option. If you get the Pentax IR remote, you can fire the body remotely, even with mirror lock up. (jeez, I feel like a Pentax rep this weekend.) You should be able to get that for under $11K USD. The lens and Refconverter will be used. With an EyeFi card, you can send the RAW images to a computer wirelessly as you shoot.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Sorry but eyefi is not a pro solution for a heavy workflow. What were Pentax thinking when they didn't make the 645D with tethering?

 

[fotografz]

Ben, you seem a bit scattered in your considerations based on saving a few shekels ... where your competitor is 10X your price range based on experience ... (did that include you in the total 10X pricing difference?)

The client wants at least 40 meg. But they really don't know the criteria when they say that. IMO, stay away from the 40 meg backs for this type of work. While 40 meg, they are all 44X33 crop frame 1.3X sensors. Avoid the Pentax 645D especially. Not only is it missing the tether option, it is 14 bit with a 11.5 DR and its base ISO is 200 (push to 100 which cuts DR even more). Nice camera for many applications with slightly lower specs and no tethering in order to keep the price down, but not really suitable for the work you need to do here.

I'd go for at least a 50 or 60 meg back which are a full 16 bit, and near FF 645 with a base ISO of 50, higher DR ... and is supported by powerful software like C1 or Phocus (which is especially important when shooting tethered).

However ...

after reading the link to your competitor that you provided, it became apparent that the higher the fidelity of capture, the more valuable the data is for scholars and researchers ... not to mention what may be needed in the future. Of particular note was the ability to zoom in on individual letters in a manuscript ... being a history fan, I've seen intense scholarly debates over the meaning of a single word, or even the form of an individual letter in an ancient document. So it is no wonder that such micro fidelity is desired ... or even empirically required.

So, were it me I'd figure some way to get an IQ 80 or even better: the H4D/200MS ... and use either on a tech camera. The 200 can be used single shot 50, 4 shot 50MS or for larger documents 6 shot 200MS.

I'd then sell the crap out of this latest technology and it's empirical ability to capture every bit of detail to produce as close to the original as technically feasible. This material is priceless and the secrets contained in even single words or letters could be of historical importance for generations to come.

-Marc

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Budget it not as much of a problem as I'd imagined (I hope!) but the guy in the link I showed was using a 33 megapixel Aptus 75 until a year or so ago or so when he bought an Aptus II-10 which he now boasts allows him to shoot a full spread rather than page by page. The work you see there which allows zooming in to individual words, etc (which incidentally is their benchmark too) is the work of 33 megapixels or less per page. 40 should be more than sufficient then for our needs, that gives 80 megapixels per spread, and the fact that it's a crop sensor is insignificant when used on a copy stand to be honest. I've been offered a deal on a H3D-50 which is very good but if only the dealer here gave more confidence....

 

[fotografz]

Budget it not as much of a problem as I'd imagined (I hope!) but the guy in the link I showed was using a 33 megapixel Aptus 75 until a year or so ago or so when he bought an Aptus II-10 which he now boasts allows him to shoot a full spread rather than page by page. The work you see there which allows zooming in to individual words, etc (which incidentally is their benchmark too) is the work of 33 megapixels or less per page. 40 should be more than sufficient then for our needs, that gives 80 megapixels per spread, and the fact that it's a crop sensor is insignificant when used on a copy stand to be honest. I've been offered a deal on a H3D-50 which is very good but if only the dealer here gave more confidence....

Okay Ben, you are the expert

Keep in mind that most of the 40s are smaller sensors and ISO 100 base ... the Aptus 33 is a larger sensor and ISO 50 base. I've shot extensively with both and would select the Aptus 75s over the H 40 meg for this type work every time. ISO base and sensor size is more important than 7 more meg.

The exception to this is the Phase One P40+ and IQ140 which are ISO 50 base (I assume without pulling), but still crop frame.

While I do not shoot ancient documents, I do a ton of fine detail macro fabric shots each year, and found my H4D/40 lacking as did I the H3D-II/39. Only after getting a H2F/39/Multi-Shot did I get there. I then extensively tested the H4D/60 to make sure it was up to the task ... which is was. If I had more of this work, I'd have waited for the H4D/200MS.

Best of luck on the project.

-Marc

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

It's a base ISO of 80 on the Leaf 40 back actually.

Can I ask why it makes a difference (1/3 of a stop)?

 

[fotografz]

It's a base ISO of 80 on the Leaf 40 back actually.

Can I ask why it makes a difference (1/3 of a stop)?

I presume you are talking about the Aptus-II 8 ... which indeed is ISO 80 base and not much different than 50 ... but a little. It is still a crop frame sensor. The 8 is a speed machine for fast shooting which I don't think you need. IMO, that back is more for fashion and stuff like that.

Your competitor seems to have the right idea ... the Leaf pano 54 meg back. Shoot both pages at once rather than having to recenter the camera for left then right pages. Or a H4D/60, H3D-II50MS, P65+, or IQ160/180 and do the same thing.

Horses for courses :thumbup:

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Data points
P40 and P65 at ISO 50 Base as well as the IQ 140 and IQ 160
The IQ 180 is ISO 35 base

In all the backs above mentioned the base ISO gives you the maximum DR at base level.

 

[Shashin]

Sorry but eyefi is not a pro solution for a heavy workflow. What were Pentax thinking when they didn't make the 645D with tethering?

They probably thought a cable hanging off a camera in a studio was a pain in the neck, which it is. Even for repro work. I am sorry your experience with the EyeFi has been so poor. From the demos I have seen with it in a 645D, the transfer rate is not much slower than a cable.

It was just a suggestion. Peace.