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Thread: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

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    Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    You don't need to have inside information to know that Phase must be working on a successor to the DF. They have the best backs in the world, but badly need a better camera body. The DF is based on an ancient 1980's model, and Phase badly need one designed this century, not 35 years ago.

    In the assumption that this is happening, perhaps people we can begin a wish list here. But let's keep it realistic please, not 6x9 sensors, or whatever.

    The biggest question is clean slate or legacy compatibility. Keeping lens lenses compatible = similar body AF mechanism (not so good) AF motors in lens = finer focus points, good.
    Single Power source or dual?
    multi point AF? or at least amazingly good state of the art AF, from what is there.
    Weatherproof a la S2?
    removable finder?
    vertical grip+shutter release integrated 1Ds style?
    build quality level on a par with the 1D or S2

    Personally my one big wish would be to have it quieter. S2 levels should be the maximum noise acceptable. In my dreams an option to use it with just the leaf shutter - the mirror/FP shutter locked open. This would involve an external viewfinder and MF, but advantage of using only the very quiet, almost vibration free leaf mechanism of the LS lenses.

    I'd also like to see some new top drawer FAST glass, but that's probably a fantasy too. Why not an f2.0 standard, damn the price? (at least give both options f2.0 and f2.8) Now we have sub 6 micron pixels, we need truly top flight lenses (maybe buy rights to the Zeiss design for Sinar M series)

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Everything is just a guess.

    - Only the new Schneider lenses will be supported, because I'm pretty sure they have the image circle for 6x6. Current Phase one / Mamyia won't be supported.
    - There will be the option for a WL-Finder
    - I hope the grip will still be removable. I don't want to carry such a big thing around.
    - The most important thing will be to get vibrations down. This is the one most annoying "feature" of the current camera.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    not that i'll ever be able to afford it, having just moved into an aptus 22...but...

    nikon's upper end bodies will work with both AF-S and screw drive lenses...so that would be an ideal solution. keeps legacy compatibility, and allows for moving forward. another huge plus of in-lens AF motors is silence...no more of the whirring and chirping (which i think is kinda cute actually. lol). more power for the AF would be nice as well...the speed and accuracy of high end 35mm AF is lovely, if anything they should steal that.

    i don't know that multi-point AF would entice me at all...i rarely use it on my nikon bodies. the center is the fastest and most accurate, and i've literally never had an issue focusing and recomposing. though having even 9 points, all double-cross, would be nice to have. when they start moving data fast enough to get MF into shooting sports and action, they'll worry about having 51 point 3D tracking.

    weatherproofing should be mandatory on all professional cameras these days.

    i don't lust after a removable finder. i've never used a camera with one, and never really lusted after anything but minor improvements in modern viewfinders. they're quite jam packed with technology and capability. of course, bigger, brigher, and clearer are always welcome. what would be sweet though, is if they could figure out doing something like the fuji x100 viewfinder...i have a feeling that's going to become more ubiquitous in the relatively near future.

    i'd love at least an optional vertical grip that wasn't a bazillion dollars and linked to a wireless trigger system. just to control the camera. it's the one drawback of shooting MF for me. i almost never shoot horizontal. i think it should remain optional though...i think accessory grips are often more comfortable than integrated ones, and its nice to be able to take them off depending on what you're shooting.

    i don't mind build quality not being top notch...as long as the ergonomics and controls are good. i could personally stand a little more thickness on the grip.

    quieter is always better, so long as it doesn't sound cheesy. a nice thick and crisp (like bacon :P) shutter/mirror sound is reassuring.

    if a canikon 200/2 is $5k...imagine a mamiya/schneider 210/2...do you just add a 1 in front of the price? a 2?

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    I wouldn't be surprised to see something based on an updated Hy6 body at some point. No idea what they'll do re:lens mounts and compatibility, though.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Narikin was writing about a "standard" 2.0 – standard in MF means 80 not 200

    I would prefer an integrated vertical grip for to have the pro feeling of the Canon 1 Ds not of the 5 D with the amateur plastic grip. A removable grip sucks (the more with the always falling down L thing and with tripod use) because it is always more or less loose and it is never one entire body. A professional camera needs a vertical grip

    Second the battery/energy concept is from last century

    More AF cross sensors welcome.

    Sealed body

    Maybe this is more back related but 80 MP are enough, now give us more frames per second, like 2 or 2.5 – not all of us are shooting landscape

    Thanks,
    Kai

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Oh, and just a word concerning AF and lenses. I wouldn't really complain if the system would come with an ultrasonic AF one day...

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to see something based on an updated Hy6 body at some point. No idea what they'll do re:lens mounts and compatibility, though.
    I always found the Hy6 a little too big for what it was, and that flat panel LCD-on-a-tray was ugly as heck. Remember this is a 645 camera. It should stay smaller and more easy to hold than an RB/RZ type body, or Rollei 6000series.

    Bigger than it needs to be is bad design.
    Heavier than it needs to be is bad design.
    Noisier than it needs to be is bad design.

    additions:
    state of the art mirror/pentaprism/screen/ finder please.
    super bright and sharp accu-matte screen.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    My personal wish list:

    1) Maintain lens compatibility with all current AF lenses!! I think that this is a no-brainer.

    2) Separate settings for exposure bracketing and exposure compensation adjustment - right now you can't set auto-bracket to +/- 1EV or more without that setting the exposure compensation to the same amount. I simply fail to understand why these are linked to the same value - maybe I'm missing something.

    3) Auto focus that works better than a $50 point and shoot. Sorry folks, it's crap. Even with my 645DF.

    4) More than three selectable auto-focus target points using some form of thumb control - all current DSLR's above $200 have this capability. I understand why it's not on the DF (new body design required) but if they are building a new camera, this seems like another no-brainer to me.

    5) Single consistent battery. The current DF is, well, let's just say sub-optimal in it's battery consumption, particularly when cold where upon it's crap IMHO.

    6) Put the interlock back on the mode selector. I'm sure that some prefer free-turning mode selector on the DF/AFD III but personally I far prefer the older push to turn control of the AFD II and it's predecessors.

    7) How about a viewfinder that doesn't want to push itself off when so much as touch it or rub against the side when putting the camera in a bag?

    8) Debug the camera so that it doesn't mysteriously decide to lock up when it's cold, the body batteries are at 80% or for some random reason. I KNOW that I'm not the only one who has had to do the battery out, power off, back power off, reassemble and hope that the shutter fires back to life. I can tell immediately when this is going to happen when shooting with mirror up or time delay release because of the sound of the mirror up clunk - and no my camera isn't faulty. I've been told that it's body/back synchronization or other such bugs but who knows?

    9) If I'm paying $6k for a body, at least make it BETTER built, ergonomically superior and as tactile as any CaNikon pro DSLR. The add on grip is an embarrassment in this regard. The body actually isn't bad at all IMHO but it definitely isn't on a par with any of my Nikon D3 series cameras.

    10) How about weather sealing? See (9). It's never caused me a problem even in pretty heavy rain but it would be better if I knew that it was at least sealed. I don't necessarily need it to be weatherproof, but certainly better sealed than it is.

    11) Maybe invest in someone like Guigiaro to design the ergonomics of the camera. I'm 100% biased due to ergonomics of the D1-D3 series Nikons which IMHO are superb.

    Btw, there's lot's to like about the current body such as the combined timer release & mirror lockup delay shooting which is something I'd love on my Nikons. However, the DF only gets a 'C' grade in my book, and I think I'm being generous.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    My personal wish list:

    1) Maintain lens compatibility with all current AF lenses!! I think that this is a no-brainer.\
    unfortunately that means sticking with body motor AF, which is less than optimal.

    I am hoping they'll make a fresh start, despite my investment, bring out in-lens AF, with ultrasonic style ring motors. It's time to turn over a new leaf. Leica did it, with an all new lens range for the S2, each having motors in the lens "where it should be" and they sell far less product than Phase in MF, so.. there's little excuse.

    Maybe there's a clever way to have both - body motor present for legacy lenses, but also a new range of lenses that doesn't connect with that AF pin system, but uses its own in lens motors?

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    If this is a wish list...

    1) detachable viewfinder options, and large view at that
    2) rotating back, which means 6x6 viewfinder size (to accommodate 645 at both orientations) which ideally would be masked according to size and orientation of sensor
    3) Minimal shutter lag
    4) Modern battery solution which can power an attached digital back as well
    5) Faster LS lens apertures
    6) Better build quality and ergonomics
    7) open interface
    8) user-updatable firmware

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    The top few, the list could get long !

    1) Get shutter vibrations down. (*** Most Important Wish ***)
    2) Ability to fine tune focus screen to match your digital back.
    (shimming of focus screen to match your backs focus point)
    3) Detachable viewfinders both large and bright. (Want a 45*)
    4) Keep the "combined mirror lockup and self timer delay"
    It is a good feature, would hate to see it fall to the side
    5) Get rid of the Random camera lock-up the cameras are known for.
    (See #8/Graham above)

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    The new camera will have anti shake, you can actually shake the camera while shooting and still retail sharp focus

    Also removable prism, and you can use the old grip.

    btw they already have the prototype, it will be released in september.

    my wish list:
    100% viewfinder
    amazing focusing with 9 points

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    btw they already have the prototype, it will be released in september.
    This a guess/wish or inside info?

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    The new camera will have anti shake, you can actually shake the camera while shooting and still retail sharp focus
    Now that would be a neat trick to pull off with a removable back and existing lenses.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    One of the main things that seems to annoy people is that their $1000 DSLR's have a far more advanced body than these MF cameras. Pentax seems to have done the right thing by creating a DSLR type MF camera with all the features of its regular DSLR cameras (especially focus) plus dual slot and weather proofing. I think take that body and add a WLF and tethering assuming the live view of the IQ backs and you would pretty much have the dream MF camera.

    Or am I missing stuff?
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    IMHO in-lens hypersonic motors will prevail, even in the mf world. Pentax is already building lenses this way while maintaining compatibility to their legacy af lenses. Phase shouldn't lack behind in this important development as it would make their system even more versatile.

    However, I do hope they would include a build in finder magnification where you could set certain magnification factors. So if you'd own a IQ140 you could set it to 1.3 and would have a nice and completely filled finder. Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen...

    Apart from that, the cold mirror lock up Graham W. discribed is a real pita. You can tell from it's sound that something isn't right and you have to reset the camera. This should really be fixed (perhaps in a firmware update so even users of older camera bodies would profit from that?).

    Another cool thing would be a feature that would work comperable to Hasselblad's True Focus.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Everyone talking about body lockups... if you're not using DF body firmware 1.21 that is likely the source of the problem. 1.14 and 1.21 (especially 1.21) should have no occasional lockups or other "quirks". The earliest firmware versions like 1.01, 1.04, and 1.07 (no huge surprise) definitely had some quirks like that. Speak with your dealers!

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    1. Controls that can be operated with light gloves on. Self timer button that can be pressed with normal fingers.

    2. Light weight for field use.

    3. AF Microadjustment like Canon

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David View Post
    3. AF Microadjustment like Canon
    good one - forgot about that. yes please.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Everyone talking about body lockups... if you're not using DF body firmware 1.21 that is likely the source of the problem. 1.14 and 1.21 (especially 1.21) should have no occasional lockups or other "quirks". The earliest firmware versions like 1.01, 1.04, and 1.07 (no huge surprise) definitely had some quirks like that. Speak with your dealers!
    Thanks Doug. I just checked myself and I am behind one. Have 1.14 loaded.
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Everyone talking about body lockups... if you're not using DF body firmware 1.21 that is likely the source of the problem. 1.14 and 1.21 (especially 1.21) should have no occasional lockups or other "quirks". The earliest firmware versions like 1.01, 1.04, and 1.07 (no huge surprise) definitely had some quirks like that. Speak with your dealers!
    1.14 definitely didn't fix it. I was shooting with this since December and I had lots of lock ups. Typically it seemed very sensitive to battery conditions (mostly happened in cold conditions, although not exclusively). 1.14 also killed manual focus lens support which was a major pain in the ***.

    1.21 seems to be a lot better. Manual focus 645 glass is now supported again and so far the camera has only locked up once for me in over a month. Yesterday in fact. Not cold, new batteries and strong charge on back battery, warm conditions, so evidently things are better but obviously not 100% fixed yet.

    The lock up for me seems to only happen when I'm shooting with mirror lock up or mirror/timer mode.

    Regarding the new features - on AF fine tune too. I missed that one and definitely appreciate that capability with Nikons too.

    Credit where it's due, this feature list is starting to look suspiciously like a Hasselblad H series specification sheet
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    this feature list is starting to look suspiciously like a Hasselblad H series specification sheet
    Is that true? I mean, does a H4D bring most of these features?

    I did not follow the Hassi product specs since a while but that makes me curious.

    Cheers,
    Kai

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai Birkigt View Post
    Is that true? I mean, does a H4D bring most of these features?

    I did not follow the Hassi product specs since a while but that makes me curious.

    Cheers,
    Kai
    Well we already have..

    - Interchangeable viewfinders
    - Single power source
    - User upgradeable firmware WITHOUT buying an expensive accessory
    - Internal AF drives in all lenses (Is this what you refer to as Hypersonic?)
    - All lenses have central shutters
    - AF fine tuning is not needed as each camera is calibrated in the factory (shouldn't you expect this with a high end product?)
    - True Focus as an alternative to multi point focus
    - Lots of options on exposure bracketing / mirror behaviour etc.

    Things that would be nice to have for sure...

    - Built in finder magnification
    - Weather Sealing

    With regards to a "Good" multi point AF. When I say "Good" I mean a multi point AF that has wide enough spaced sensor for it to be useful. I don't believe the Pentax 645D sensors are far enough apart for all situations.

    However, if we did place them out wide to be more useful their accuracy then drops significantly. While this is ok if you are working with a larger depth of field, it is pretty hopeless if you are shooting a portrait wide open at f2 for example.

    This is due to the optical nature of how phase detection AF works. It is far more accurate in the central part of the optical path. I think you will also find this with Canon and Nikon as well, although not necessarily noticeable in the field.

    Therefore this is why we developed True Focus to use the gyro sensors in the body to calculate camera movement during a recomposition and therefore adjust focus. Essentially your AF point can be anywhere in the frame.

    Hope that helps Kai!

    David

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    David,

    Although I'm wedded to the Phase One/Mamiya system I really do think that they lag behind both Hasselblad and the HY6 bodies in terms of sophistication and innovation. If I could put my Phase One & Leaf backs on a current Hasselblad DSLR body then my Mamiya/Phase bodies would have been kicked to touch long ago.

    With respect to the AF fine tuning not being required if the body/back are calibrated, well that's true only so long as the lenses are also perfectly calibrated. My experience has been that there are also tolerances with the glass so for the very best performance you may still want to adjust each lens to your specific body/back. Even Leica can't manage this ... (been there, done that, and paid to have my entire system calibrated end-end so that only the dummy behind the viewfinder is at fault!)

    So, if Hasselblad would only go back to an open interface I'm sure that you'd have more body & lens users amongst those of us who prefer the Phase One & Leaf backs.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Unfortunately, True Focus is of no use if you are shooting on a tripod to keep a specific framing. Btw, is TTL metering available with all viewfinder options?

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    I'd rather see the next Phase either copy the Sinar M design, than follow the same MamiyaBlad form, and be modular:



    or quite honestly update the Mamiya ZD / Mamiya 7 form. Though I expect there's not many of us wish that.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Hybrid Electronic Viewfinder/ Optical viewfinder, a la Fuji X100

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    Unfortunately, True Focus is of no use if you are shooting on a tripod to keep a specific framing. Btw, is TTL metering available with all viewfinder options?
    No, the waist level finder doesn't have a meter built in.

    Correct, True Focus wouldn't work for off-center compositions where one would be shooting multiple frames for pin registration. Either will any other current AF system in a MFD camera unless the point-of-focus is close to the center AF point.

    You could use True Focus to focus anywhere in the frame and return to the same position IF you had a tripod head with accurate markings, but whether that would be pin accurate would be pure speculation until tried. In either case, I'd probably use manual focus for the rare occasions I'd be shooting that way anyway.

    RE: AF accuracy ... every HC lens I've used to date has been dead accurate right out of the box without the need for calibration, including ones I've had for over 5 years of constant use. The proof is in the pudding.

    BTW, HC Lens AF Micro Adjust as I understand it makes micro-step corrections as you stop down the lens ... I can even hear it working if I listen very closely.

    -Marc

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Hybrid Electronic Viewfinder/ Optical viewfinder, a la Fuji X100
    That would call for much better live view readout essentially a completely different sensor.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Hows this I just want it now. LOL

    Seriously 5 AF points . I want a vertical to hit someones eye with a AF point
    Quieter Shutter, mirror dampened and vibrations cut to a minimum.
    Better vertical grip and better ergonomics. Like to buy them a Leica DMR setup to copy.
    Built in magnification for the sensor you are using, so when viewing your viewing your sensor size and nothing more or less.
    Better focusing screens as well for manual focus
    Top deck LED readouts
    Bigger rear focus button
    Provisions built in for hand strap
    No shutter curtain. Not needed

    I have more need more espresso first
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    - Multipoint AF / AF Tracking / Better AF
    - Ability to control the camera settings from the back, so the controls can be put in software, on the back. We can then have things like:
    -- Quick control selections (as pressing info twice on a D700)
    -- Change button functions
    - 100% viewfinder / Replaceable prism
    - Weather sealing
    - Less fiddly buttons
    - Single power source for back and camera

    Maybe I'm odd or just use too many manual cameras, but I quite like the DF, it's simple and functional. Multipoint AF is the main one that I miss. So please keep:
    - Ability to use older lenses and the Mamiya N bellows
    - Ability to use existing VGrip
    - Focal plane shutter - this makes the DF really versatile
    - the way MLU and self timer co-operate, it's a gem
    - The under/over exposure indicator in viewfinder. I love this.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Yes, it would be cool if the new body had more "new" features. But if I want those I'll grab either my 1DsIII or 1DIII. The more I use my 645AF as a really large manual SLR the more I am liking it. Yes, the batter life of my Aptus II-7 sucks. Yes, having 6 AAs for the body is so last century. Yes, it feels like I am holding a large hunk of plastic.

    My wish list:
    1) Feel real. My RZ feels real. My 1D feels real. A 5D feels fake.
    2) Be price competitive for what we get. Yes, I understand that the market for these bodies is small and makes the market for 1D type cameras look really large.
    3) If we have AF please make it work. Yes, it is accurate (if it locks). I'm finding I am faster and nearly as good as it is.
    4) Better ergos. I wonder who's hand they used to place the buttons. There are enough places to put buttons on a body that size that there is no excuse to make them accessible.

  33. #33
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by mvirtue View Post
    3) If we have AF please make it work. Yes, it is accurate (if it locks). I'm finding I am faster and nearly as good as it is.
    Ah yes, I so enjoy the sound of my AF motor hunting back & forth. Plus as you say, it's normally ok eventually but only IF it locks!

    As an aside, I wish there we some manual focus lens offerings. Personally, as a landscape shooter I could care less about AF. The current 120 macro is a superb example of how a lens can feel and work vs a sloppy AF lens in manual mode. I know that I could use Hasselblad & older Mamiya lenses (and I do sometimes) but they're only supported in stop-down metering mode.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  34. #34
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    David,

    Although I'm wedded to the Phase One/Mamiya system I really do think that they lag behind both Hasselblad and the HY6 bodies in terms of sophistication and innovation. If I could put my Phase One & Leaf backs on a current Hasselblad DSLR body then my Mamiya/Phase bodies would have been kicked to touch long ago.

    With respect to the AF fine tuning not being required if the body/back are calibrated, well that's true only so long as the lenses are also perfectly calibrated. My experience has been that there are also tolerances with the glass so for the very best performance you may still want to adjust each lens to your specific body/back. Even Leica can't manage this ... (been there, done that, and paid to have my entire system calibrated end-end so that only the dummy behind the viewfinder is at fault!)

    So, if Hasselblad would only go back to an open interface I'm sure that you'd have more body & lens users amongst those of us who prefer the Phase One & Leaf backs.
    Hi Graham,

    See Marc's post above regarding his AF experience.

    Just because Leica can't manage it, doesn't mean we can't.

    Going back to an 'open' interface is another bid discussion (of course) but then it leads us straight back into the problem of miscalibration between parts.

    We would also lose the benefit of the integrated parts, like single source power, our lens corrections, True Focus... and so on.

    David

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Well we already have..



    Hope that helps Kai!
    David, thank you so far!

    I am really interested in how the True Focus works in reality. Sounds smart and I was surprised when it was announced why nobody has had this idea before. Guess I have to rent a Hassi again...

    The open/closed system discussion is a topic for me too. I find it to be a wrong decision having made the Hassi system a closed one.

    Since I am shooting with Phase One gear since years it would be a big and expensive step to change system but after two damages of my DF I am kind of annoyed at the body (at the moment the AF doesn't work anymore – not even manually...). I had lots of moments when it locked down, and I always have battery stress.

    So far... Time for a real new body very soon. I must say that I am doubting if I would be less successful with another back attached then a P65+ or an IQ180.

    Now another thing for a new camera:

    The tiny lens release button hides perfectly under the L-bracket. Every time I have the camera mounted vertically on the tripod, I almost can't change a lens.

    Kai

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    That would call for much better live view readout essentially a completely different sensor.
    Yeah, a CMOS sensor, right?

    No thanks.

    -Marc

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    I love the auto-ISO function on my 5dMkII. I wish I could specify a minimum shutter speed with the auto-ISO. This is important for event/stage/theater where lighting can change dramatically and there is only one chance for the shots.
    Why not two camera bodies? 1 smaller lighter, one larger heavier more advanced - studio model vs. action/field model.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Why not two camera bodies? 1 smaller lighter, one larger heavier more advanced - studio model vs. action/field model.
    completely agree.
    surprise everyone by introducing two, not one!

    The studio people will be happy with heavy featured model, whereas the landscape/travel/documentary people will hate a heavy RB/RZ type, and love a much lighter body, and accept some loss of features.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    [QUOTE=narikin;321077]You don't need to have inside information to know that Phase must be working on a successor to the DF. They have the best backs in the world, but badly need a better camera body.

    Best backs according to who people on this forum?
    To me the 40MP is the sweet spot for photographing people and without question the H4D 40 is the superior camera AND back compared to the Phase 40plus.

    The hype for the Phase coming from its dealers and lobbyist on these forums is simply amazing.

  40. #40
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    I think if you really read this thread very carefully every poster in this thread wants a new body. That's not hype that is a need. We all recognize that a new and improved body is the weak point in this system. Not one dealer or user will say we don't need a new body it is a admission from the folks that shoot these systems. Simple as that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Guy my point was about the blanket statement the TS made about Phase having unquestionably the best backs. I obviously don't agree.
    My example was the H4D 40 vs the Phase P40 Plus.

    Yes without questions the H4D is a better camera than the DF. But my argument goes further. The back is better too since it shoots high quality ASA at full res, all leaf shutter lenses, the 100 f/2.2 (if you photograph people) which is worth switching to by itself.

    I also prefer the look coming from Kodak sensors over Phase. In 35mm cameras the most desired files came from cameras with Kodak sensors. Leica M8 and M9, Kodak 14, and the Leica DMR.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Well certainly arguments for both no question. But I could argue a load of points i don't agree with you but really what is the point. Its like two kids arguing about which water pistol is better. I simply stay out of all those kinds of arguments as it gets nowhere but i could certainly point you to a few forums that love that stuff.

    I could not resist.

    Its Friday people laugh
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    [QUOTE=Sharokin;322355]
    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    You don't need to have inside information to know that Phase must be working on a successor to the DF. They have the best backs in the world, but badly need a better camera body.

    Best backs according to who people on this forum?
    To me the 40MP is the sweet spot for photographing people and without question the H4D 40 is the superior camera AND back compared to the Phase 40plus.

    The hype for the Phase coming from its dealers and lobbyist on these forums is simply amazing.
    Doesn't matter what you shoot with my friend ... your work is amazing!

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  44. #44
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharokin View Post
    The hype for the Phase coming from its dealers and lobbyist on these forums is simply amazing.
    I think you'll find just as vociferous support for Hasselblad from the various owners here too. It's just that there's less of them here. I'm sure that if we were to go visit the Hasselblad forums on the web that we'd see the same discussion but with Hasselblads being the 'arguably best back'

    Kodak vs Dalsa is obviously a personal preference and undoubtedly subjective vs objective. Whatever floats your boat is the right one for you.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai Birkigt View Post
    David, thank you so far!

    I am really interested in how the True Focus works in reality. Sounds smart and I was surprised when it was announced why nobody has had this idea before. Guess I have to rent a Hassi again...

    The open/closed system discussion is a topic for me too. I find it to be a wrong decision having made the Hassi system a closed one.

    Kai
    Hi Kai,

    My pleasure!

    There is probably a good chance you have an iPhone, right? If not, probably seen one.

    Well the sensor that the iPhone has to detect movement (for gaming, screen rotation, other uses) is the same kind of component that is in the base of the H4D.

    Therefore in using True Focus, you simply have to point the central AF sensor to the area in the image that you wish to focus on, hit the True Focus button (resting conveniently on the rear near your thumb), recompose and shoot.

    During the recompose part, camera movement is detected and using a bit of maths we can offset the focus to be more accurate based on the position of your chosen AF point.

    Sounds a bit crazy(!) but in practice it works.

    With high sensors increasing in resolution and requiring tighter tolerances across the whole system it is absolute correct to integrate all parts. You can't do this with manufacturer A+B+C making different pieces.

    David

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    David, thanks again, I knew about the gyro system and find it to be a smart solution. I would love to have it in my DF as well. Shooting models in a set which means not only portraiture often means to pan the camera – obviously resulting in unsharp photos while aperture wide open...

    Some doubting must be allowed, if Phase and Hasselblad could not produce fitting parts – but anyway, it is like it is and it's a bummer.

    On the other hand, what only the DF (should be read as the P1 system) has (and I don't want to miss anymore) is the

    - 1/1,600 flash synch time
    - V-Grip integrated Profoto Air system
    - Capture One integrated Profoto light controlling module

    Kai

  47. #47
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    With high sensors increasing in resolution and requiring tighter tolerances across the whole system it is absolute correct to integrate all parts. You can't do this with manufacturer A+B+C making different pieces.
    I beg to differ. Parts from all manufacturers are subject to sample variation. Hasselblad is not immune. Best to solve the issue for everyone by including a fine tuning system.

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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    I beg to differ. Parts from all manufacturers are subject to sample variation. Hasselblad is not immune. Best to solve the issue for everyone by including a fine tuning system.
    True, if there IS an issue.

    So far, I've had the same set of lenses including the HC 100/2.2, and have used them on 9 different successive H body/back/prism sets ... with no need for calibration or adjustments ... and apparently it's holding true for my higher resolution H4D/60.

    Personally, I don't care how it is achieved ... whether it is through a tightly controlled integrated system, quality parts control, or individual factory calibration of every single camera set ... just as long as I don't have to fiddle with every camera or lens combination. If some individual HC lens doesn't measure up, I'd say send it back for one that does ... which I haven't had to do ... yet.

    I also haven't heard many complaints about Phase One regarding this issue ... but I can't attest to it personally.

    Again, the proof is in the pudding. Theory verses practice.

    -Marc

  49. #49
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Not sure i have been lucky or what but every lens or back i have used on my DF no issues and that is a lot of lenses and backs. I'm with Marc prove is in the pudding not the marketing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  50. #50
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    Re: Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

    Sidebar note: Is there any reason that with a digital back, a body (or lens for that matter) even needs a shutter? Can't they get the back read cycle very accurately using internal electronics? If so, this would eliminate flash synch and shutter vibration issues. The mirror is still there, but that can be handled a la Hassy's pre-MLU solution. This would be my personal number one.

    Eliminating the shutter would also likely allow for a full 6x6 capture area and rotatable back within the existing lens flange-to-sensor spec, eliminating the need for a vertical grip. Check my feature 2.

    Improved AF is a no-brainer and it will come, likely user tunable by lens a la Canon. 12 selectable/average-able points would be great with a hyper accurate center point. Include optional af bracketing with settable increments for custom focus stacking. Check.

    Exposure feedback taken from the back's histo, also user tunable for offset and built-in 3 frame exp bracketing off that initial reading if desired -- check.

    Same battery source as back, but maybe x2.

    GPS would be nice, not mandatory.

    Beyond that, I'll take all remaining bells and whistles
    Jack
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