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Thread: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

  1. #1
    Simonhi
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    First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Hi Guys,

    Stumbled on this place from researching Phase One digital backs and the 645DF camera system.

    I'm a 35 year old landscape photographer living in the UK. I am on the cusp of ordering said Phase One P65 back and 645DF camera and looking for a bit of advice.

    I will get the camera system with the 80mm Schneider 2.8 LS lens and probably also stump for the Phase One 35mm f3.5 for a wide angle. I am in two minds as to what lens to go for at the longer end of the scale, 110mm Schneider f2.8 LS, 120mm Macro, or 150mm AF ?

    I know that in time I may look into the feasibility of using a technical camera but probably for the first year (until my bank manager has recovered) I will shoot the 645 to get used to the new format moving across (up ?) from a 35mm system.

    ANyway this seems like a cool place and I've spent a few days pouring over the various posts in here and it all seems good friendly advice and banter.

    Cheers in advance for any advice

    Si.

    ps - It may help to know that at present I shoot with a D700 and prime lenses 21,28,50 and 85mm manual focus (love shooting manual, so forgiving) and occasionally use a 70-200 for longer stuff.

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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Hi Si,
    Welcome to the forum. It is a great place to get information and learn. I can't help you on the lens selection as I am only using a tech camera right now but others will be along before too long to give you good info. Enjoy the move to medium format. You will have a little more to play with moving from 12mp to 60mp

    Not sure what your current processing workflow involves but to get the best from the P65 the best idea is to spend time learning C1 and using it for at least a portion of your processing.

  3. #3
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Its a tough call on the 110 and 120 macro. They both are right around your 85mm focal length so either one would be fine in that respect. The 110LS is a new lens with a leaf shutter and uses Schneider glass which many of us love the look of that glass. I never owned the 120 but the 150 D and the 110mm. The 150 D is killer sharp so it is a excellent choice for landscape and many other purposes. The 120 is a manual focus lens, and the 110 has AF being a landscape shooter only may not mater much to you but I like have the AF lenses myself since it is so easy to drop into manual focus with either the clutch at the back of the lens or push pull depending on what lens here. So i would lean myself towards the 110 LS for AF, look in file and for me the leaf shutter and its a nice focal length of FF.

    My current lens grouping is the new 35D, 55 LS, 80LS, 110 LS, 210, 300.

    I personally love the Schneider lenses as you find a lot of folks do as well . I would certainly be thinking about the 55mm LS for landscapes a great focal length.

    Also you need to think lens conversions since your coming from 35mm this may help
    28 equals a 18 in 35 land
    35 equals a 22
    45 equals a 29
    55 equals a 35
    80 equals a 51
    110 equals a 71
    120 equals a 77
    150 equals a 96
    210 equals a 135
    300 equals a 193
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Money wise the most expensive lens is the 28mm followed by the 110 than 55mm. But honestly don't shop price , lenses can last a lifetime if well cared for. Really a small investment over the long haul. For most people that is, some of us gear sluts like to move things around a lot. Not pointing fingers at anyone unless I include myself there. I have shot everyone of those lenses listed above or owned them. The only biggest issue in the 28mm on FF is your very corners maybe soft as well as the 35mm but you need to find good copies of these especially if you are buying used and older versions. The 120 I think has three versions of it but same optical formula. So these are things to be aware of and if your buying new D glass and the Schneiders these are less of a issue since these are either new lenses or reformulated for digital.

    Good luck and Welcome to GetDPI and also welcome to the Phase family. This is my system of choice also.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    BTW everyone shooting Full Frame should just implant these numbers in your head. Very useful

    28 equals a 18 in 35 land
    35 equals a 22
    45 equals a 29
    55 equals a 35
    80 equals a 51
    110 equals a 71
    120 equals a 77
    150 equals a 96
    210 equals a 135
    300 equals a 193

    This is the lens conversion chart courtesy of capture integration. Neat tool
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  6. #6
    Senior Member mediumcool's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Simon

    The P65 has a sensor a bit smaller than some other MF backs at 40.4mm x 53.9mm, so the lens conversion factor from 645 to 35 (using the short side of the frame) is 24/40.4 = roughly 0.6X.

    This means that the 80mm is equivalent to 48mm in full-frame 35 terms, the 35mm is 21mm, 110mm is 66mm, 120mm = 72mm, and the 150mm is equiv. to 90mm. These equivalents apply if you cropped the 35mm frame to the same aspect ratio as the P65 (1.3475) rather than the standard 1.5 ratio on your Nikon D700.

    Other way to go is to multiply your current lens focal lengths by the inverse ratio (40.4/24 = 1.68) to get an equivalent focal length that you might like to use on the larger camera (example 21 X 1.68 = 35 minus rounding error.)

    HTH

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Tech cam users that 23mm is a 15 mm . Man does that sound like a sexy lens

    40mm equals a 26
    43mm equals a 28
    47mm equals a 30
    60mm equals a 39
    72 mm equals a 46
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    Simon

    The P65 has a sensor a bit smaller than some other MF backs at 40.4mm x 53.9mm, so the lens conversion factor from 645 to 35 (using the short side of the frame) is 24/40.4 = roughly 0.6X.

    This means that the 80mm is equivalent to 48mm in full-frame 35 terms, the 35mm is 21mm, 110mm is 66mm, 120mm = 72mm, and the 150mm is equiv. to 90mm. These equivalents apply if you cropped the 35mm frame to the same aspect ratio as the P65 (1.3475) rather than the standard 1.5 ratio on your Nikon D700.

    Other way to go is to multiply your current lens focal lengths by the inverse ratio (40.4/24 = 1.68) to get an equivalent focal length that you might like to use on the larger camera (example 21 X 1.68 = 35 minus rounding error.)

    HTH
    I believe it is .7 . I used the chart with the P65 as the back choice. download and try it . Very nice tool
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    I think we are both wrong . Just did the math and it is .64. Whats a mm or two. LOL

    Thanks Terry for questioning it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #10
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    I use .66 because the math is easier to do in your head
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  11. #11
    Simonhi
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Wow, cheers for all the feedback guys

    To start with I think it will be the 35mm, and 80mm LS and then see if I want to go 110 LS. I may then go for the extra length of the 150mm and fill in the gap between the 35mm and 80mm with the 55mm, plus it completes the LS set. I have also heard that a Schneider 35mm is in development but then with all the reading I have done lately this could be a myth ?

    Camera and lenses will be brought new so I would hope that there should not be any issues with the quality of the lenses.

    Carrying five primes is plenty for me, I carry four plus a Nikon 14-24mm 2.8 and 70-200mm 2.8 at the moment so the weight of my bag should be about the same if not slightly lighter.

    In response to an earlier comment regarding processing I downloaded and bought a license to Capture One Pro 6 last weekend and have been working my way through online videos since.

    Moving on from that, at present all my processing has been on a 15" MacBook Pro with 2.8GHz and 8GB Ram. I know I will need to get a better more powerful computer to process the images from the Phase back and was considering a 27" iMac upgraded to 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 with 16GB of memory but would appreciate any advice offered if this would not be the route to go. I would probably struggle in going to a Mac Pro straight away due to the cost of outlay in upgrading to the Phase system.

    Cheers again guys, I know this is gonna be a cool place to be

    Si.

  12. #12
    Simonhi
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    double post
    Last edited by Simonhi; 4th June 2011 at 15:16. Reason: double post

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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Here is some info for you if you haven't found it already.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...ght=mamiya+210

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    The 120 macro is a great lens but I am lusting after a 150 LS FWIW

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    Senior Member mediumcool's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    I think some people here (and perhaps online charts too) are using the image diagonal to calculate equivalent focal lengths for each format. There is one problem with this; the aspect ratio of the P65 is 1.33:1 and that of 35mm format is 1.5:1.

    This is comparing apples and oranges—to get the same ratio, you would need to crop either the ends of a 35mm frame, or the top/bottom of the medium format frame.

    Even worse is trying to compare an older Hasselblad with 35mm (1:1 vs 1.5:1). The square 120 format is a historical oddity, largely due to cameras like the Rolleiflex, first sold in 120 format in 1932.

  16. #16
    Senior Member mediumcool's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonhi View Post
    Moving on from that, at present all my processing has been on a 15" MacBook Pro with 2.8GHz and 8GB Ram. I know I will need to get a better more powerful computer to process the images from the Phase back and was considering a 27" iMac upgraded to 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 with 16GB of memory but would appreciate any advice offered if this would not be the route to go. I would probably struggle in going to a Mac Pro straight away due to the cost of outlay in upgrading to the Phase system.
    Si.
    Consider a MacPro refurb, or used. You can upgrade the video card as needed, which you can’t do on an iMac. Having said that, I use a 2010 3Ghz iMac and 2.4 MBP, but with the relatively small files from an Aptus 22.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    I think some people here (and perhaps online charts too) are using the image diagonal to calculate equivalent focal lengths for each format. There is one problem with this; the aspect ratio of the P65 is 1.33:1 and that of 35mm format is 1.5:1.

    This is comparing apples and oranges—to get the same ratio, you would need to crop either the ends of a 35mm frame, or the top/bottom of the medium format frame.
    Mr Cool is quite correct. For true equivalency you would indeed need to map the aspect ratios to the different sensor sizes to determine exact FoV comparisons based on the diagonals. We have to do the same when calculating shifts with a lens to a wide angle too. However, generally the rule of approximation is close enough. There are other factors that come to play when you actually shoot with different aspect ratios too since you might chose a wider lens equivalent when shooting a 2:3 ratio vs a 4:3 for example for the same shot (or vice-versa). That's a subjective vs objective difference though but it is important because it will affect which lenses you will use & when.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    Even worse is trying to compare an older Hasselblad with 35mm (1:1 vs 1.5:1). The square 120 format is a historical oddity, largely due to cameras like the Rolleiflex, first sold in 120 format in 1932.
    Give me 60+mp of square sensor and I'll gladly crop post exposure
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  18. #18
    Senior Member mediumcool's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Give me 60+mp of square sensor and I'll gladly crop post exposure
    And you could use a waist-level finder for a unique low-level look, and shoot record covers without any cropping (though vinyl cover art was so much bigger/nicer than the more recent CD/DVD equivalent).


  19. #19
    Simonhi
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    Consider a MacPro refurb, or used. You can upgrade the video card as needed, which you can’t do on an iMac. Having said that, I use a 2010 3Ghz iMac and 2.4 MBP, but with the relatively small files from an Aptus 22.
    Which MacPro spec ?

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    Senior Member mediumcool's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonhi View Post
    Which MacPro spec ?
    Best you can afford! Threading is important to C1 and so is OpenCL.

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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Si

    I made the switch to 645DF with a P45+ a year ago. I went for 28, 80 and 150mm but added the 45mm quickly. DOF is an issue for many landscape shots (particularly with 80mm and 150mm lenses) compared to FF DSLR and would recommend getting Helicon focus.

    View camera wise, the cost mounts, but I used a Linhof Techno for a week and would like to add one when funding permits. Having used 5x4 previously, the absence of tilt in particular and front rise/drop to a lesser extent is something I miss.

    Computer wise, my 4 year old 2.16GHZ MacBook Pro handles the files ok, but struggles, the 120GB HD means that I have to delete files once back from a trip ready for the next. My Mac Pro is from early 2008 and has only really grumbled when trying to stitch a panorama of 14 vertical frames.

    Obviously your P65+ files are that bit bigger, so interpolate from my findings.

    Bax

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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    On computer gear, I would wait a bit and see how your current setup handles the files before upgrading. I was pretty surprised that my Mac Book Air could handle a P40+ file. An IQ180 file doesn't work on it (graphics rendering) but only you can know what is fast enough.

  23. #23
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: First post, new to MF and Get DPI !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonhi View Post
    Wow, cheers for all the feedback guys

    To start with I think it will be the 35mm, and 80mm LS and then see if I want to go 110 LS. I may then go for the extra length of the 150mm and fill in the gap between the 35mm and 80mm with the 55mm, plus it completes the LS set. I have also heard that a Schneider 35mm is in development but then with all the reading I have done lately this could be a myth ?

    Camera and lenses will be brought new so I would hope that there should not be any issues with the quality of the lenses.

    Carrying five primes is plenty for me, I carry four plus a Nikon 14-24mm 2.8 and 70-200mm 2.8 at the moment so the weight of my bag should be about the same if not slightly lighter.

    In response to an earlier comment regarding processing I downloaded and bought a license to Capture One Pro 6 last weekend and have been working my way through online videos since.

    Moving on from that, at present all my processing has been on a 15" MacBook Pro with 2.8GHz and 8GB Ram. I know I will need to get a better more powerful computer to process the images from the Phase back and was considering a 27" iMac upgraded to 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 with 16GB of memory but would appreciate any advice offered if this would not be the route to go. I would probably struggle in going to a Mac Pro straight away due to the cost of outlay in upgrading to the Phase system.

    Cheers again guys, I know this is gonna be a cool place to be

    Si.
    The real trick pretty much is cores for C1. If you can get quads you would be ahead of the game. I have a 2011 15 MBP 2.3 Quad 8gb of ramm and a Sata 3 SSD drive. It should be about two times faster than you current MBP maybe better. I have had the Duo core in the same flavor as my current one and my processing times went up 53 percent with the quad unit. Even the same hard drives. Point here is you don't NEED a MacPro although be nice but again depends on what type of speeds your looking for. I need speed in a travel box and my unit does a great job. I have a IQ 160 coming and currently have the P40+ and I do very very well with the P40 in processing speeds. Better than some older MacPro's. I'm a working Pro that shoots a lot and processes for clients on the road a lot so speed is essential or i get a lot less sleep and i don't sleep to begin with. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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