Talk Me Off the Ledge

[Guy Mancuso]

where equipment failure might be more of an issue .

There is no such thing as MIGHT it is more like it WILL happen , never bank on might happen. I have been around the world and it will happen and has happened.

Everyone here is forgetting this mans budget by 30 grand. A S2 is NOT in his budget. He has according to his first post about 35k selling everything off and that maybe a stretch. That is getting down to a car charger and rebuilding. Honestly if the M9 is his key primary than really his only choice getting in MF is used and cheap , that does not fit into a S2 PERIOD.

Look at a used P40+/body and 3 lenses about 20 K tops and keep the M9 as they would back each other up. Might have to pair down lenses to 3 or 4 in the M9. But may only need one M9 now as they would back each other up.

Now if you can find a S2 with 3 lenses for 19k I will eat my underwear. Lets get real folks. LOL

Sorry as much as the romance is in this thread for Leica it is simply not even close to being a option given this type of budget and more important these types of backup plans that are so DESPERATELY needed.

I would turn this job down in 5 seconds if I even remotely thought I could not have some sort of backup plan. If you had a Phase or Hassy a extra body alone would make me feel so much better and there dirt cheap. You can't buy a S2 backup dirt cheap.

Roger I love ya man but the word IF does not exist in a Pro's life it is more WHEN it will fail. I don't care what system you use it WILL fail at some point. Being a Leica shooter you know that better than anyone.

Also have options with Mamiya and Leaf setups as well. Might even be able to buy new here

 

[Shashin]

If you want an affordable 40MP option, then the Pentax 645D and three lenses can come in at 12K–14K. My 35mm f/3.5 manual lens, 55mm f/2.8 AF lens, and 105mm f/2.5 manual lens got me to the 12K mark. The lenses and camera fits in a fairly compact lumbar/shoulder bag. The camera operation and build is much nicer than the Mamiya/Phase and Hasselblad offerings--although the sporty red blad is sexy, but the price is not.

I have not have Guy's luck with equipment failure in the field, but following his reasoning, the extra body is not really great if the back fails. Whether you by a backup Phase 40mp back or another 645D body, you maybe spending less on the second Pentax body.

But I am unsure why a M9 would not be considered a backup? I know a lot of photographers who have a complimentary rather than a duplicate system as a backup, especially in the documentary field rather than commercial fields. I always used two different system that would give me choices, but would allow me to continue to work if one went down--I have only had one camera break in the field over the last 30 years.

BTW, the 645D give focus confirmation with manual lenses in the viewfinder. I have found it is OK, but always used the focusing screen at the same time.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well the one issue with the Pentax like the S2 is the integration of the sensor which makes a second one expensive choice. But sure not a bad call either if having a M9 system there to backup each other. Backs going down is extremely rare unless you drop the thing or dunk it in a ocean. Again the second system M9 is a backup. The Hassy and Phase do offer a option outside a M9 backup is a cheap body as well.

I do agree though you don't always have to have same system as backup and a M9 with anything would be a good choice. Problem here is the OP does not have the budget to squeeze in a S2 and a M9 and that was more my point. Just only so much funds to be had. Or like my wife says your exceeding the check book balance my dear. LOL

 

[Shashin]

Problem here is the OP does not have the budget to squeeze in a S2 and a M9 and that was more my point. Just only so much funds to be had. Or like my wife says your exceeding the check book balance my dear. LOL

Completely agree. Especially as the OP is so successful with the M9, I would be very nervous to jump to such different system as an S2. All your eggs being in one basket comes to mind or all your business in sub-prime mortgages. Great if it works out...

 

[Mike M]

Now if you can find a S2 with 3 lenses for 19k I will eat my underwear. Lets get real folks. LOL

hahahaha

@the OP - It's possible that you could be at the stage in photography where gear purchases should be based more on inspirational/spiritual aspects rather than reason.

In other words, get the camera that you want regardless of whether or not it makes sense rationally. Then, figure out how to make it "bend" to your needs as they arise. This is often how people develop a personal style because any attempts at trying to cover-all-bases inevitably leads to jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none.

Also, Guy is right that gear is going to go down. IT's not an "if" it's a "when." A professional that's shooting on another person's dime must be working with a reliable backup system in order to be a responsible business person. But I don't think that mentality is right for everyone and most hobbyists or people self-financing their own projects don't necessarily need to take such precautions. A few "hail-Marys" here and there can work just as well as a back-up even if the photographer isn't Catholic. In other words, get the most expensive and most inspirational camera system possible and don't worry so much. If and when it goes down, then blame it on an act of nature. That's my take on it anyway

 

[kdphotography]

hahahaha

....gear purchases should be based more on inspirational/spiritual aspects rather than reason.

In other words, get the camera that you want regardless of whether or not it makes sense rationally. Then, figure out how to make it "bend" to your needs as they arise. ....

.... In other words, get the most expensive and most inspirational camera system possible and don't worry so much. ....

Mike, you have suceeded in succinctly capsulizing this fourm's approach to Dante and are most deserving of enabler status.

:ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yea i think I can add that in your signature Mike. Your just dangerous. LOL

Just joking

 

[Mark Gowin]

Guy, I see you preaching the need for a backup quite a lot. Every time an S2 is mentioned you emphasize that you would need another S2 as a backup and you put that in a negative context due to cost.

Do you have 2 P40+ backs - a primary and a backup? Last I recall reading about your own back up scenario, you were using a Sony SLR as your backup.

Please don't misunderstand my point. I agree with you that pros should have a backup. In addition, serious amateurs should have a back up, especially if they are on a special photography trip. So my point isn't about the need for a backup. My point is that an digital MF Owner does not have to have another digital MF as a backup. It would be great, but is not necessary. Let's face, modern digital SLRs are adequate for the majority of commmercial work and digital MF is overkill even for the pros. Most pros choose to use digital MF as a way to set their work apart from other pros, not because it is necessary. If a pro is such a high caliber shooter that another digital MF is truely necessary, then the cost of buying another S2 or IQ180 isn't an issue.

Let's get real. If you don't practice what you preach, then maybe you shouldn't be preaching it.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'll just lend Jeff my ski mask. Would you like that S2 in a red dot or black dot.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Guy, I see you preaching the need for a backup quite a lot. Every time an S2 is mentioned you emphasize that you would need another S2 as a backup and you put that in a negative context due to cost.

Do you have 2 P40+ backs - a primary and a backup? Last I recall reading about your own back up scenario, you were using a Sony SLR as your backup.

Please don't misunderstand my point. I agree with you that pros should have a backup. In addition, serious amateurs should have a back up, especially if they are on a special photography trip. So my point isn't about the need for a backup. My point is that an digital MF Owner does not have to have another digital MF as a backup. It would be great, but is not necessary. Let's face, modern digital SLRs are adequate for the majority of commmercial work and digital MF is overkill even for the pros. Most pros choose to use digital MF as a way to set their work apart from other pros, not because it is necessary. If a pro is such a high caliber shooter that another digital MF is truely necessary, then the cost of buying another S2 or IQ180 isn't an issue.

Let's get real. If you don't practice what you preach, then maybe you shouldn't be preaching it.

Very simple a S2 backup is 26k backup in any flavor even a back can be as low as 4500. The real problem Mark which none of you get is it is NOT the sensor that will go down it is the body and being integrated just like a Pentax there is no backup when that goes in for repair. A Phase, Hassy , Leaf we can get almost any body to work with our backs and almost any back to work with our bodies. Hassy is a little more limited here but the interchange is there. On integrated systems like Nikon, Canon, S2 , Pentax the body goes down its over the whole system goes in. How often does a back, body go down at the same time almost never. So is it negative your damn right it is and you need to accept that fact but totally overlook it. Davids S2 went down what happened he switched to his Nikon. We MF shooters have several options go to a Nikon , go to backup dedicated body , get a back overnighted or in the storage locker for low cost to keep on hand all at extremely less than 26k . I can buy lenses for less than 1k if a lens goes down. How much are those S2 lenses. Okay you want me to sit here and play nice , screw that . These are facts my friend and that romance don't last long when that client says screw off. This is my life not some playground to push sand around.

I would never go out of country without at least a extra system like my Sony AND a backup Phase body as well. If my back goes down I have backup , if my body goes down i have backup, if the system goes down completely both back and body( how often would that happen ) i have another system on hand. I have options that far exceed a integrated system. Sorry i am not here to play nice and be politically correct and spare feelings . I am here to tell it like it really is in the REAL WORLD. This gentleman wants to ignore this than its his freaking neck in the sling not mine and i would not take this chance nor would MANY other Pros as well. Especially leaving this country. Like to see you even get AA batteries in Cuba easily

Mark i am totally covered in backups you have no idea what sits in my closet or what i can have in 20 minutes on my desk or overnighted. Going out of country is a whole different game plan. Let me add in country most Pros can get anything they need by the next morning worst case scenario but out of country we would all have a different game plan and carry those backups and extra systems with us since there are no resources like we have in our country.

People pay me to give advice and consult with them and i would NEVER sit here and NOT tell them like it is. If that rubs the wrong way than sorry get some thicker skin. Not going to sit here and play politics. It is not in the best interest for them and end of day no matter how it is presented the content is what counts. Some you just have to scream at. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The bottom line here he simply can't afford both the S2 and M9 not sure what the struggle is here. The money is just not there . If he wants to keep his M9 as i think a good idea than he would have to look for a alternate to the S2 because of budget. Reason i even brought up a used Hassy or Phase as he could get in the door maybe in his budget for less than 20k for a system in total. That should hold his M9 in his hands plus another system in MF. I see suggestions of both and all this weird stuff, that simply does not add up to his money. Not sure where the logic is here.

 

[kdphotography]

.... you have no idea what sits in my closet or what i can have in 20 minutes on my desk or overnighted. .....

The real question is, does your wife know what you have accumulated in that closet...

:ROTFL:

ken

p.s. Today's the big day---no backing off from the ledge!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The real question is, does your wife know what you have accumulated in that closet...

:ROTFL:

ken

p.s. Today's the big day---no backing off from the ledge!

No and don't tell her.

Are you sitting outside waiting for a delivery truck. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[kdphotography]

Are you sitting outside waiting for a delivery truck. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Just came back in the house---IQ180 in hand!

Too busy this week---won't be able to play until Sunday at earliest.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Congrats . Me too have hot deadline till next Thursday no time to shoot even if my back did come. Bummer

 

[glenerrolrd]

Since it s pretty obvious that most posts are only skimmed and I was essentially called out as not appreciating the need for a professionals redundancy .....may I respond in kind .

I just don t get this argument about backups . It seems that I am being lectured about stuff I don t know and accused of being blinded by the Leica bling. I have almost 100,000 images shot all over the world in all variety of situations and never once have I been shut out on any assignment either personal or professional. I am very well prepared for any trip or assignment . I understand the need for backup and where to apply it ...I sure don t need a lecture about what a pro needs . ( I have had camera ,lens ,battery,flash and card failures but never to an extent that kept me from shooting as planned).

I believe in having as close to 100% redundancy as I can stand and normally the issue is that I can t carry that much around or watch over it while I am shooting. I also believe in having redundancy within a single system and much prefer two of the same verse a mixed batch of equipment. Just back from 8 days in Paris where I carried my M system with 10 batteries,2 chargers ,2 M9 s and x100 and duplicate electric wiring for everything. I also checked all the equipment and tested every body and lens before going . I carry a back up disk with a complete back up of my MacBook and enough cards to shoot around 5000 images without erasing ..all tested cards . Carolyn has her MacBook so I even have an alternative laptop.

I don t believe the original posters primary issue is redundancy but as Guy mentioned having adequate funding to pursue a relevant strategy. These are of course related .

With that said .lets look at this in the context of the original poster and focus on REDUNDANCY. He is finishing a book that has required several visits to Cuba. He would like the advantages of MF to help with architecture ,landscape and street scenes . The images will be blended with his existing work ..all Leica M . I don t think he needs MF ..if the M stuff is good enough for the book ..why would he need MF to finish it. (easier to argue if he was starting from scratch and said this subject would sing with MF). Adding an S2 or any MF solution to his existing M kit ..is a reasonable solution. (if he can afford it and can carry the gear). The back up would be his M9 kit . You could of course substitute any of the major MF solutions ....but here the redundancy would be in his M system . His work in Cuba (see his website or LFI ) is vey similar to the street shooting I do in Hollywood,Miami,Key West and San Juan . I even planned this trip last year with a Pro PJ but had to scrap it . My observations are based on the OP style ,stated objectives and some knowledge of the major photographic work thats been done on Cuba over the past 10 years ....harvey,webb,bazan,turnley to name a few. Bazan was just published on NYT Lens .

The 2nd assignment is much more difficult . I am invisioning something like Steve Mccurry s work in Afganistan. A long time Nikon Kodachrome shooter..he carries HB for portrait work . The question I had for him when I spoke to him at a lecture last year...logistics ..how do you have the correct equipment etc with you in such difficult circumstances. He has one man assigned to just manage and protect the equipment , another to act as his fixer and keep him out of danger and sometimes a 3rd as a body guard. This is more extreme than working in a small village ..but nevertheless you still have to have your equipment with you always.

I would never recommend that he go with a single system ....S2 or anything else ...for such an assignment . But since this does t seem to be an assignment he would routinely have renting (something) might be a decent solution.

There are clearly major inconsistencies in the OP (like I need a wide angle and t/s) and then will be using the camera on the street and I have to sell the farm to get just a body and a lens . Any consideration of an S2 requires compromises and a lot more money .

So for the record..I never recommended that the original poster consider any alternative that did not have appropriate redundancy for his specific situation. Nor did I endorse his selling the farm ,his horse and his M system to buy a single S2 .

And yes Guy you rubbed me the wrong way by painting my advice as Leica biased and not having a professional perspective. You can make the same points with out labeling others viewpoints as rubbish.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Roger one question do you have a client on the line in all that 100k in images. No and if you don't come home with one image it does not matter but wasting your time.

Have I stood next to you as you handed over almost your whole kit to Leica in Germany for repair. Yes and continue to read how inadequate the service and repair is from you yourself.


For the rest of your comments have a great day. I did my job and make you all THINK

 

[glenerrolrd]

So you again question the validity of my experience ? and don t read my posts to see that while we agree on redundancy ..I believe it should fit the situation.

Yes I turned in my equipment in Germany for calibration which I could have caught well before ...and yes Leica service is still slow and painful . My point is that I understand the need for careful planning redundancy and checking my equipment ...I adopted those practices after the fiasco with the M8 and I haven t had a single failure IN THE FIELD except for my Nikon flashes and I had a backup on me.

The OP situation is almost exactly as mine and not much at all like yours . He has no client over his shoulder , no deadline ,no absolute requirement to produce anything specific. Its doubtful that he even has any real requirements to capture a specific moment . An average wedding photographer is under more pressure . He can t go back but he has time to adjust and if he loses a shot it generally no big deal. His backup situation should fit his needs not yours .

The S2 (if he can afford it and thats doubtful) is a good fit for the two assignments . Impossible to tell if it makes any sense for him long term . Plenty of good questions as any MF investment would limit his future equipment decisions. No question he has alternatives that could be better. But if he can afford it and in the context of these two assignments ...he can address the redundancy requirements (and include an S2 in his kit).

My issue is this crap of discounting a POV based on the “PRO” requirements and perspective which don t even match the situation. I made very specific recommendations to the original poster on how I would approach the opportunities ..if you disagree fine thats a discussion .

Roger one question do you have a client on the line in all that 100k in images. No and if you don't come home with one image it does not matter but wasting your time.

Have I stood next to you as you handed over almost your whole kit to Leica in Germany for repair. Yes and continue to read how inadequate the service and repair is from you yourself.


For the rest of your comments have a great day. I did my job and make you all THINK

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes I disagree. Sorry but that is what makes the world go round

 

[stephengilbert]

Think we've gone a bit far afield yet? The original request was "Talk Me Off the Ledge." Some did that; some suggested jumping. ("Cost be damned, buy an S2.") Based on the really nice published work by the OP, it seems likely the best course would be to keep his Ms, film and digital.

It might well be preferable for him to have an S2 as well, or some other MF camera, but that wasn't in the offing. Maybe one of the Leica fans should lend him an S2.