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Talk Me Off the Ledge

atanabe

Member
RENT - best use of capital and as a business, a write off. I am surprised that with FedEx and the internet that more pros do not take advantage of this option. I know that if I lived in NYC for example, I would not own a MFD system but rent it when the jobs come up. A friend of mine in NYC has been doing just that for the last 15 years and never been happier, no overhead, he can use the latest technology and profits are higher.

If you are an amateur, then the equation changes or does it? You can treat a vacation like a "job" and rent specifically for that. Yes, you will need a big limit on the AmEx but if you could even dream of owning one then you must have the correct limit on the card anyway.

Just my $.05 (used to be $.02 but inflation set in)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
renting is a wonderful option sometimes for sure especially if you can bill it back. i know many Pros in NY that do just that. Little scary as some rent everything but usually they are in town and can get straightened out quickly. Out of country is tough not many rental houses will go there with having gear taken out of country. I used to rent the Nikon 600 F4 lens almost on a regular basis from Samy's when I needed it. The real problem here is out of country. Heck i can get any flavor of back and body by 10 am the next morning with just a 1 minute phone call. You just lose your resources like that when you travel. I came so close to blowing a job in Finland as the sync from the strobes worked on one F3 with Polaroid but on the one that I had film with it synced after the shutter. Luckily i did shoot some frames on the F3 with the Polariod. Rental gear on the lights. I got lucky but anything can happen. That was only a 9 thousand dollar flight as i left the 3 days after it was set up to a paper mill in Northern Finland. Santa's North pole. LOL

Honestly my message here is don't take risks and if you can't afford something look for another alternate. I could seriously go buy a S2 right now , take the money i have for my upgrade and just do it. I just lose a lot of options( for me too risky) and that is what you really want going out of country is some options. Given the money he can only do a S2 than that is a poor option and not so much because it is a S2 but the only unit he has. It's either keep the M9 get a cheaper alternate for MF and maybe have some change left over in his pocket. He would have two very nice systems on hand. That to me makes the most sense as he can also do two types of shooting. Thats my thoughts at least and everyone can disagree and that is fine as well. Its not my gig so I will stay out of it. But renting MF cams is also not cheap 500 to 700 per day depending on unit and unless you can bill that back or have a very fat wallet that will hurt the purse.

Roger if you think I was being rude than sorry it was certainly not my intention and maybe read some of my threads wrong. So no harm no foul and sorry if your offended , certainly not my intention. I have a hard time agreeing with some things thats all.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Cost is what I think makes the Pentax 645D so compelling (for those that don't rent). A backup Phase demo 40MP back is more expensive than a Pentax body. A 30MP demo Phase back is only $1000 less than a Pentax body. For the price of an IQ140, I can get two Pentax bodies and have some cash left over. Same with an S2.

I hope Pentax will inject a little spice the MFD market. I was just starting to look for a Phase system, as I had used Phase before, when I stumbled over the Pentax. I just could not justify the cost of the Phase and it seemed to give me less. This was a personal purchase. I am really enjoying this camera--makes the Phase back in the studio look a little long in the tooth.
 

JPlomley

Member
Just an update folks concerning the financials, with the trade-in of two M9's, two M7's, five Leica lenses, and the Mamiya 7II/43/65 kit, along with the scanner, I would only need to kick in $10K to get an S2 with 35, 70, and 120 Macro. About what it was going to cost me for the Nocti Asph, which I was thinking of adding for another project I had in mind, but that could wait for another trip, at that time likely coupled to an M10. After speaking with some local colleagues about my plan, I was surprised that I would have no problem borrowing an M9 and a couple lenses to throw into the bag along with the S2 outfit.

As I previously evaluated the S2 for three weeks in Olympic National Park last year, I would also envision adding this to my landscape kit as it is not always feasible to hike the distances I require with large format, and oftentimes, inclement weather and large format just do not blend well. The S2 would fit the bill for both these situations. I will be discussing the application of the S2 for landscape photography in an upcoming Leica blog (end of June/beginning of July).

So when I look at the S2 overall, it will satisfy so many of the genres I pursue. It will augment my landscape capabilities, and add additional capability for street and cultural documentary reportages. Roger points out that thus far all of my Cuba work has been shot on the M, so why not finish it with the M? The reason is that I hope to exhibit the Beautiful Decay portion of the project, and therein the S2 will allow for the exquisite prints I envision. Many of the "Decay" locations and images were pre-scouted and shot with the M9 last year using the 21/2.8 Elmarit Asph and 28 Cron Asph. Hence the reason I really need Leica to get the 24mm S-lens out the door before next February, otherwise I have no 21mm equivalent.

Hope this helps clarify the situation. The discussion thus far has been extremely enlightening. There is no doubt, GetDPI photographers are passionate, and that is a good thing.

Cheers,
Jeff
 

David K

Workshop Member
Jeff,

Does your dealer actually have all those lenses in stock? Aside from the 70mm, they are in notoriously short supply and it's pretty much impossible to get any idea of when they will be available. If you get any info on when the 24mm S lens will be available please share it with us.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Jump!

If you can live with the limitations of the system (and maybe without a 24mm), I see nothing wrong with making the switch. Personally, when I travel in the wilderness or abroad, a backup system is a moot point--I never carry what I "might" need. I don't have the luxury for that. Every ounce is important and I strip down my system to the bare essentials. I have had only one failure in the field in my life, it that was because the camera broke my fall rather than breaking itself.

It also appears your "friends" want to see an S2 system and they are willing for you to take the risk. Besides, you can always rent an M9.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just an update folks concerning the financials, with the trade-in of two M9's, two M7's, five Leica lenses, and the Mamiya 7II/43/65 kit, along with the scanner, I would only need to kick in $10K to get an S2 with 35, 70, and 120 Macro. About what it was going to cost me for the Nocti Asph, which I was thinking of adding for another project I had in mind, but that could wait for another trip, at that time likely coupled to an M10. After speaking with some local colleagues about my plan, I was surprised that I would have no problem borrowing an M9 and a couple lenses to throw into the bag along with the S2 outfit.

As I previously evaluated the S2 for three weeks in Olympic National Park last year, I would also envision adding this to my landscape kit as it is not always feasible to hike the distances I require with large format, and oftentimes, inclement weather and large format just do not blend well. The S2 would fit the bill for both these situations. I will be discussing the application of the S2 for landscape photography in an upcoming Leica blog (end of June/beginning of July).

So when I look at the S2 overall, it will satisfy so many of the genres I pursue. It will augment my landscape capabilities, and add additional capability for street and cultural documentary reportages. Roger points out that thus far all of my Cuba work has been shot on the M, so why not finish it with the M? The reason is that I hope to exhibit the Beautiful Decay portion of the project, and therein the S2 will allow for the exquisite prints I envision. Many of the "Decay" locations and images were pre-scouted and shot with the M9 last year using the 21/2.8 Elmarit Asph and 28 Cron Asph. Hence the reason I really need Leica to get the 24mm S-lens out the door before next February, otherwise I have no 21mm equivalent.

Hope this helps clarify the situation. The discussion thus far has been extremely enlightening. There is no doubt, GetDPI photographers are passionate, and that is a good thing.

Cheers,
Jeff
Not sure i would trade in your M9 and Leica lenses myself. Maybe much better selling them outright here on the forum since you will most likely garner more money than trade for sure. But you have to look at those trade numbers as well. I would sell those popular items than trade the Mamiya in plus the cash you raised. I know selling is a hassle but if you can get more money may help your cause.

Nothing wrong with a loaner M9 to take as backup. Me personally I would not risk someones else's gear going out of country. Heck i don't borrow anyones gear in country except from 3 very close friends and even than I don't like to. But that is me.

Unfortunately nothing will take your S2 lenses in another body so maybe a Prosumer type cam might be a decent backup for complete failure. The bad part as i mentioned is once crossing our boarders you lose those oh **** overnight replacements like some of us can do. Maybe a Canon 5DII and 24-70 for the just in case would not be a bad idea. Your call but thats what i might be thinking about.

You obviously have your heart on a S2 and thats great it is a good cam no question just a wee bit more limiting in all the backup scenario. Personally I would just have a canon,Nikon or Sony backing myself up. **** happens

Good luck

Oh the 24mm not a lot of answers here but you could stitch the 35mm lens with a Pano rig and for now maybe your best solution
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
So when I look at the S2 overall, it will satisfy so many of the genres I pursue.
Jeff,

My .02 only, but it appears you have answered your own dilemma with the single sentence above and convinced yourself of the direction you want to take. I say go for it. If it dies or breaks and it's your only camera, so what? You'll just deal with it at that time. All that said however, I would NOT bet on any manufacturer (including Leica) releasing any new lens until it actually hits the street.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I believe this was offered once before - buy a Phase back.

While the S2 may be able to offer incredible image files it is nevertheless what I call a closed system. By that I mean it is much like a 35mm DSLR where it's all in one; the digital back can't be removed. Then there's the sensor format - larger than 35mm yet smaller than medium format, an in-betweener.

I've had a chance to hold and shoot a S2 twice when they first came out and while it felt good in my hands the 2 thoughts expressed above plus the humongous price turned me off.

My reasoning for a Phase back is simple; it's moveable from system to system. A Phase back will give you just as stunning an image file as a S2 at a much lower buy-in. Couple the Phase back to a Phase body and you have a great camera that can be used in the street - switch the back to a technical camera and you're back to shooting a tech camera. While I haven't been keeping up with the advances Phase has made with their lenses at least they offer much more than Leica does for their S2 and can be of similar quality.

Lastly, I believe the Phase system is less expensive buy-in than the S2, you get more for your money and you should be able to keep your M9.

Then on the other hand you can always follow Jack's advice as it does appear you've answered your own dilemma.

Best of luck

Don
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Then there's the sensor format - larger than 35mm yet smaller than medium format, an in-betweener.
???

How much difference is a Phase One 40+ or IQ140 medium-format back to an S2? And medium-format digital is simply chips larger then 35mm--always has been.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
The sensor size of an S2 is 30x45 @37.5 megapixels

The P30+ is 44.2x33.1 @31.6 megapixels with a pixel size of 6.8x6.8 micron
The P40+ is 43.9x32.9 @40 megapixels (10 megapixels w/sensor+) and 6.0x6.0 microns
The P45+ is 49.1x36.8 @39 megapixels w/a pixel size of 6.8x6.8 micron
The P65+ is 53.9x40.4 @60.5 megapixels (15 w/sensor+) and 6x6 micron pixel size
The IQ140 sizes are the same as the P40+
The IQ160 sizes are the same as the P65+
The IQ180 is 53.7x40.4 @80 megapixels (20 w/sensor+) and a pixel size of 5.2x5.2

I found this by visiting both Leica and Phase's website and looking at the tech specs. I didn't find where Leica stated the pixel size so couldn't include it here.


While the S2's sensor size is close to what's being offered by Phase it is nevertheless at least to me an odd size and not to my liking. Then again it's a matter of horses of course...

Don


While the three sizes compared here are the same for the P40+/IQ140 and P65+/IQ160 there are other differences/improvements that make an IQ back (in my opinion) superior.
 
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GMB

Active member
Yes I disagree. Sorry but that is what makes the world go round
Fair enough, but the manner in which certain views are sometimes dismissed in this forum kills a good discussion atmosphere.

Sorry to say that because I am sure that that's the last thing you want but it's happening. When I inquired about the S2 and expressed my intention to go for it, I got PMs from quite active members of this forum "encouraging" me to go for it and expressing their views what makes that system attractive--and saying that they would not post in the thread because they were tired of the reactions that that would cause.

BTW, I granted myself a 24 cool off period and re-read what has been written here before posting this.

As to the question posed by the OP, it's a really tough call. I like the S2 a lot and deliberately did not go for a Phase or Hassi as I did not like the form factor of these cameras but wanted to have a camera that I can take almost everywhere and that's easy to use. For me that was the right decision BUT (and that's a big BUT), I did not have to give up my other cameras to finance it. Would I have gone the S2 route if that meant to throw in my Ms and lenses--I very much doubt that would have done it because at times I prefer the M simply because it is smaller etc.

Having a back-up, the demands for someone who has to deliver the clients and someone who does not are completely different. And it depends very much on what you are shooting. If you shoot a wedding, well things have to work on that day and it does not help at all if you can get a new back delivered within 24 h because the bride and groom will not wait that long. Same for a corporate event of the Armani fashion show, So if you really want to cover your ***, you need two systems or at leas a system with the key components doubled up. And yes, while the backs are unlikely to fail, they can and do fail and they can and do drop etc. And if I understand correctly, you do not have two backs.

As a hobbyist, you can more easily take your chances. And to be perfectly honest, I'd rather buy a system that I like to work with and take the risk that my system may fail and I may on 1% of my shoots be without something than have all the time a system I do not like.

I probably should have stayed out of this debate and watched it with amusement but here we are.

Georg
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Georg I have a backup body and another system as well. The S2 does not provide a backup body. Given what the OP would have to do to get into a S2 is illogical and maintain not only a very limited setup with 2 lenses but no backup heading out of the country. That was his first post. Sorry but regardless of any system that is just plan bad planning. You want me to sit here as i give out advice daily and actually some pay for that advice. But sit here and listen to totally irrational logic. Can't do that. Also he is a Pro and has no hobbyist excuse to take risks. The advice was and still is buy a used MF system and keep his M9's since he simply stated himself he was on a very limited budget. In that case there is no S2 used for a system below 20k. It just does not exist.

Honestly this is not really a discussion this is irrational thinking on a limited budget, he has no options and still wants a S2 . His risk factor and he will either survive it or fail. As a working commercial Pro there is no such thing as risk or failure in my life PERIOD. I do not know what a hobbyist thinking is as I have never been one. My neck has been on the line for 35 years and that is all I know is a working Pro environment. I can certainly go along with some thoughts here on this thread and totally get them no question. But come on do you honestly think this is not a stretch. I can't imagine anyone not seeing through the veil here on that.
So when I here a working pro get into something that does not make sense than i will shout from the rooftop and try and save his neck. Exactly what I did here. I can only lead the horse to water and he jumps to the other pond that will make him sick than it's out of my hands.

So Georg if its a buzz kill sorry I am not a Leica apologist in any fashion nor any gear for that matter if something won't work I will certainly tell ya that. You don't have to listen and you can certainly disagree but I work for checks and sold out years ago to make a living at this. I pull no punches for anyone or anything and i certainly do NOT try to bullshit around the mulberry bush. Thats me and I ain't changing now. LOL

If it pissed you off and made you think just a little extra . There is nothing wrong with that and it is actually a good thing you do hear the downside of things. But bad thinking I will dismiss just like anyone else. Something has to make sense to work a single system with 2 lenses which makes no sense at all going out of this country. He has since changed his mind some and that is good. So all the fanfare and all the heartache did what made him think more and now it has some sense to it. But from the initial post was get off the ledge dude there is no bottom.

Frankly I did my job. I truly admit I am maybe one of the most passionate guys around when it comes to this industry and nothing will make me less of a advocate for this industry and yes maybe sometimes that comes at a cost to me personally. But this is what I do and will die doing it. I have no other job to go to this is it and I will protect this industry as well. I can't even read a wedding forum without steam pouring out my ears. Hopefully that gives you a clue. Thanks Guy
 

GMB

Active member
So Georg if its a buzz kill sorry I am not a Leica apologist in any fashion nor any gear for that matter if something won't work I will certainly tell ya that. You don't have to listen and you can certainly disagree but I work for checks and sold out years ago to make a living at this. I pull no punches for anyone or anything and i certainly do NOT try to bullshit around the mulberry bush. Thats me and I ain't changing now. LOL

If it pissed you off and made you think just a little extra .

Frankly I did my job.
Guy, You did not piss me off, because frankly no one on this forum can piss me off as I have reached a certain age and stage of thinking where few people an piss me off.

But you don't seem to read what people write, that's the problem (I did not say that you do not have a back-up body but a back-up back), and this is not about Leica or Hassi, or Phase. It's one thing telling someone "Beware what you are doing and realize that you will be left without a backup and may not get it one in time when you are in god-knows-where" or pretending that anyone who does not follow your advice is plain nuts. As I said, I do NOT think you mean bad, quite to the contrary, but the manner in which some of these discussions develop stop others from expressing their views openly on this forum.

And to be clear, if I were in the position of the OP I would think hard before jumping on the S2 but I would might do it. I was fortunate enough that I did not have to make that choice. The fact that Jeff wants to exhibit larger prints is a perfectly good reason. Yes, you may get caught with your pants down, if the S2 fails in Romania, but the risk is most likely small (at least if you have tested the camera before), and you may be willing to take that risk.

Georg
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Sorry if it was confusing. I have a immediate backup on hand that would cover me but yes it is not a back which is extremely rare to go down. I have a backup system for that day but by next morning i could have any flavor of Phase back in my hands but yes i have a Sony worst case scenario that day. Most do not have 2 backs. The problem with integrated systems be it Nikon , Canon , S2 and Pentex 645 is it really is not the sensor that will go down but the body which is more the issue and being tied together you just can't garb a extra body out of your bag and stick your back on it, this has happened to me. I think everyone actually missed that part. Is having a MF setup like Phase and Hassy is you get that extra option in there which really is the one option the body that really is the problem area if anything every happened. Now we all have the second system option no question be it Sony, Nikon, Canon,M9 but he was talking NONE.

Everyone has ignored this and maybe the best option of all is that cheap 800 dollar body buried in your car to keep you in backup under the same system. So who's being ignored here . ME. LOL


And yes admittedly I do scan too much. LOL Okay caught red handed and i am under the gun to get a project done and I'm goofing off.

I honestly do not mean bad ever. Frankly I am a really nice guy to be honest. I'm just so passionate about this stuff and i am tough about things no question.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Back when I was shooting landscape with Mamiya then Phase 645 bodies I kept a backup. I went to Alaska with 1-digital back, set of lenses and 2 camera bodies figuring if anything mechanical was going to break or let me down it was going to be the body. And this is the biggest problem I have with the S2.

Yes the S2 is a nice system with great Leica lenses however it is a system that could very easily let me down. I no longer like the idea of incorporating the digital back to the body of my main piece of gear. The lens might not give me a problem, the digital function of the S2 might not give me a problem however the idea of being thousands of miles away from home and in some cases hundreds of miles from a cell phone with only one camera body that "could" have a mechanical problem causes me nightmares. And that is why if I were still shooting landscape with a 645 body and not a tech camera I would still to this day have a backup. Even if it were just an AFDII I'd still be able to go on.

There's no moving parts to a digital back, likewise there's no moving parts to the tech body. The only real moving part to a tech camera is the shutter release; the rest, f/stop and shutter speed while mechanical in their own way are less prone to failure.

When I pack my WRS I always pack a second lens just in case (it isn't the same focal length however with stitching I could at least capture the image). The last thing you want to happen is to loose a shot that cost several hundreds if not thousands to set up because of mechanical failure.

This I believe is where Guy is coming from and frankly I agree with him. I come from a background where we trained and planed for the worse thing that could happen hoping it never would and brought that mindset to what I do today.

Don


Guy - you're just a big old pussycat! :D
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Guy, I don't think people are questioning your method. It is a good way of doing things, but not the only and not always the practical way. And I am having a hard time following you as well. You say if your back goes down, you can get another the next day. I am sure you can do that for the body. So it does not look like it is actually a big deal that you have a backup, apparently I can get a whole new camera sent to me--BTW, with all the problems you have with Phase/Mamiya bodies, I am glad I did not go that route. :)

But you also do a form of commercial photography that cannot be applied across the board. I have known a lot of LF landscape photographers that never carried a second body in the field. The weight and size just does not make it practical and a smaller backup system does not solve the weight problem nor address the quality issue. Commercial photographers have the luxury of packing heavy. You also have clients on the set/location looking at watches so time is really important. Not every form of photography has those constraints nor budgets.

Also in this discussion we are forgetting equipment cost. I could get two Pentax bodies and a lens or two for a Phase IQ140 back. We can argue which is better to use, but if a backup is really important, I could have my cake and eat it too. The S2 changes that equation. There are all sorts of ways to add up to a solution.

It is possible for me to agree and disagree with you at the same time. I am just not sure there is a black and white answer to this problem. The OP is going to have to figure out a solution for him.
 
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