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Thread: Crazy LCC idea

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Crazy LCC idea

    Not sure what the hell I am thinking here but sitting on the back patio i came up with this crazy idea. Yea maybe I need more sleep. But hear me out and have no idea if this would even work. But might be worth a try . READ my quote below in signature..


    I'm sure some engineer, scientist or math guru will shut this down but screw them. LOL

    Okay say your on a Tech cam with a 43 schneider for example and your doing a stitch with back in vertical position. For a base LCC to store in C1 for example. Say you did a 2 shot stitch than did you 2 shot LCC. Now here comes the fun part . You actually stitch the LCC first and make a Tif file. Not sure you can apply a LCC correction on a Tif but say a file extension you could. So after you make the 2 shot LCC stitch you do the LCC correction and store that. Than just process out your normal 2 shot images stitch going forward than bring it back in C1 and apply that 2 Shot LCC stitch. Here you could just happily go along shoot all day and make 2 shot stitch shots than process them out and simply apply the double LCC . Seems to me this would save a ton of time and simplify the process. Okay question would it work and would even CS5 figure out how to stitch a LCC without any detail in it. Maybe not?

    I know I'm going to pay for this one but hell with it. Photography is about experimenting. Would anyone like to try this and report.

    Yes i made the appointment with the shrink already 10 am the white truck pulls up. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    One problem is when you stitch two exposures there is some blending and line detection going on along the stitch. It's rarely stitched along a straight line, if for no other reason than to correct small errors in registration. When forced to stitch across a gradient blending is used. The LCC stitch would have to reflect this.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    - you can't apply LCC to a TIF
    - it's much easier (and much faster) to apply LCCs to a number of shots in C1 simply by copying the LCC setting of the actual LCC shot and applying it to a selection of shots (i.e. select all the shifted shots in question with the LCC shot as primary variant ... then simply click ALT + COPY/APPLY)
    - working with TIFs in C1 is limited to quite a small color space ... so your workflow would through away the full potential of the files

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Okay thanks folks. That is making sense was just looking at shortcuts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    It would also be tough for software to find definitive detail to stitch a pair of LCC's together.

    Bottom line is doing them after each shot is pretty easy and fast -- and if you do them religiously, you never have to hunt for the right LCC to use for any given frame.
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Not too crazy an idea and I wonder why I never thought of it...

    That said I don't see how it would work. The thought of stitching 2 or more LCCs seem to be counter productive to the whole idea of doing an LCC.

    Jack's correct - once you have a workflow figured out it becomes second nature and fast - shoot LCC - capture image - shoot LCC - capture image. I do this for every image I shoot unless I don't make a change in the position. The first thing I do after setting the tripod up is shoot a LCC. I'll also shoot a black screen (either hand or lens or hat or lens cap) when I change locations or to set a pano apart of other images.

    The best shortcut is a good workflow that works best for you.
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Just teasing you guys but you can now skip LCC and go straight to stitching in C1 if you're on a Leaf back:-)
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Just teasing you guys but you can now skip LCC and go straight to stitching in C1 if you're on a Leaf back:-)
    Show Off!!
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Just teasing you guys but you can now skip LCC and go straight to stitching in C1 if you're on a Leaf back:-)
    You need to learn how to share Yair. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Along the same lines (i.e. reducing the LCC processing pain)...

    I stitch a lot (~90% of my work). Mostly 2x2 with a P65+ (IQ180 soon, I print BIG:). I create LCCs for every shot (for various reasons, but mainly because LCC is easier and more reliable than taking notes on each shot (voice memo recording on the back would be nice, BTW)), so after a good outing, I can be faced with processing upwards of a hundred LCCs. This is by far the most time consuming and uninteresting part of my process. It seems to me it would be simple to implement batch processing of LCCs in C1. Select all the LCCs and then let it cook over night. I always use the "exclude dust" due to the time a full LCC takes. If I could batch process LCCs, I would really care how long.

    Anyway, if anyone from Phase is listening, please, pretty please, batch LCCs.
    Last edited by alan_w_george; 14th June 2011 at 12:40.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by alan_w_george View Post
    It seems to me it would be simple to implement batch processing of LCCs in C1. Select all the LCCs and then let it cook over night. I always use the "exclude dust" due to the time a full LCC takes. If I could batch process LCCs, I would really care how long.

    Anyway, if anyone from Phase is listening, please, pretty please, batch LCCs.
    +1. This would be terrific!

    Chris

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    It's definitely doable. Using something like autopano pro, you can obtain a layered stitched pano, then you'd have all the masks to drop in the LCC's. That part could be automated. I know a lady wrote CornerFix for the M9, which is essentially the same thing. The processing (I mean the actual code) in cornerfix could be used to fix the layers in the stitched file.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    I really do not know how consistent the lenses are for centering and so forth, but if you know the lens and you know the sensor, and if the shift were know (via controls) than an approximation of the lcc could be computed.

    The stitch first lcc later is a problem since it is not cler which pixels cale from which frame unless it is kept in layers.
    then it does get interesting but more complicated rather than more simple.
    -bob

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Just teasing you guys but you can now skip LCC and go straight to stitching in C1 if you're on a Leaf back:-)
    That's right Guy, you don't have to come up with crazy LCC schemes when you are a Leaf user!

    What I have always appreciated is that Leaf has given it's users multiple options for lens cast corrections (and also raw file processing) and now takes it a step further with corrections available through the DB.

    Also, Leaf's LC11 software with LCC correction is much faster than C1 and I can output corrected .mos raw files that can be processed in Lightroom, C1, Raw Developer, PS Camera Raw, etc.

    Yair, I still like the little stand alone software LCC corrector from a few years ago. I wish that would be updated for use with current Macs.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Just teasing you guys but you can now skip LCC and go straight to stitching in C1 if you're on a Leaf back:-)
    That's a tad disingenuous.

    From what I understand, you still have to create the LCC in software and then load the LCCs in the back. AND you still have to select and apply the LCC to the image, you just can do it in the back/in the field versus in software/post.

    You make it sound as if with Leaf your LCC days are over, which is far from the truth. But don't get me wrong though, it is a step in the right direction but not the final LCC solution. Anyway the same feature will probably make it into the IQs at some point.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Just a quick question: when you all do an LCC shot, do you open up a stop or two to try to get the histogram as centered as possible?
    Thanks,
    Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It would also be tough for software to find definitive detail to stitch a pair of LCC's together.

    Bottom line is doing them after each shot is pretty easy and fast -- and if you do them religiously, you never have to hunt for the right LCC to use for any given frame.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    Just a quick question: when you all do an LCC shot, do you open up a stop or two to try to get the histogram as centered as possible?
    Thanks,
    Bob
    You learn from experience how many stops based on the situation. For example, lens is in shadow and subject is brightly lit, you may go 3 or 4 stops open. If bright light is directly entering the lens 1 or even 0 stop adjustment maybe the case. Exactly centered does not really matter as long as nothing is blown.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    Just a quick question: when you all do an LCC shot, do you open up a stop or two to try to get the histogram as centered as possible?
    Thanks,
    Bob
    Yes. But to be perfectly clear, I open up by two SHUTTER speeds, not lens aperture, so as both the capture and LCC are at the same aperture. I am of the belief aperture affects LCC, and so why I never bought into the "standard set" concept. Second, note than in some situations you do not need to open up to get a centered LCC -- so it is important to look at your LCC histo.
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by alan_w_george View Post
    That's a tad disingenuous.

    From what I understand, you still have to create the LCC in software and then load the LCCs in the back. AND you still have to select and apply the LCC to the image, you just can do it in the back/in the field versus in software/post.

    You make it sound as if with Leaf your LCC days are over, which is far from the truth. But don't get me wrong though, it is a step in the right direction but not the final LCC solution. Anyway the same feature will probably make it into the IQs at some point.
    You create the files, load them to your CF card(s) and then in the field you select them much like selecting WB or color space when setting the shot. From there the raw files are created cast and falloff free. You do not need to apply anything and can skip the whole LCC post work

    That's a big step forward. Of course we would rather prefer to do away with the whole thing but with most LF lenses there's no escape...
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Yes. But to be perfectly clear, I open up by two SHUTTER speeds, not lens aperture, so as both the capture and LCC are at the same aperture. I am of the belief aperture affects LCC, and so why I never bought into the "standard set" concept. Second, note than in some situations you do not need to open up to get a centered LCC -- so it is important to look at your LCC histo.
    Of course; aperture remains constant.
    Rather than shooting a LCC exposure after each shot, if stitching I think shooting all the to-be-stitched images first, then shooting the associated LCCs afterwards would be preferable. The less time between stitched shots, the less change in clouds, etc... Only applicable to landscapes I guess, but that's what I mostly shoot.

    Thanks for all the great suggestions everyone. VERY much appreciated.
    Bob

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    If the C1 engineers were really good, you could use the images your camera shifts to make a map of the entire image circle and then use that map to correct any image at any position--it is simply a matter of registering rasters, which could be done automatically if the cast vignetting is apparent in the image. You would have to map the image circle at different apertures, although a model could certainly be made to compensate for any aperture.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    It's definitely doable. Using something like autopano pro, you can obtain a layered stitched pano, then you'd have all the masks to drop in the LCC's. That part could be automated. I know a lady wrote CornerFix for the M9, which is essentially the same thing. The processing (I mean the actual code) in cornerfix could be used to fix the layers in the stitched file.
    I think Sandy might be surprised to find that he's a lady btw :-)

    I ported the CornerFix code over to a different Mac UI a few years ago and so I know this pretty well. Unfortunately it won't do what you want with LCC's for any shifted or de-centered images because of the way that it calculates the image brightness drop off and also color cast. Basically it examines the source image for the profile by calculating a color / brightness fix curve that radiates from the center of the image. This assumes a uniform color shift and vignette - not something you'll see with a shifted lens unless you determine a different offset center point. Also it won't do dust removal etc using this technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    If the C1 engineers were really good, you could use the images your camera shifts to make a map of the entire image circle and then use that map to correct any image at any position--it is simply a matter of registering rasters, which could be done automatically if the cast vignetting is apparent in the image. You would have to map the image circle at different apertures, although a model could certainly be made to compensate for any aperture.
    Indeed you could! (see above).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    Rather than shooting a LCC exposure after each shot, if stitching I think shooting all the to-be-stitched images first, then shooting the associated LCCs afterwards would be preferable. The less time between stitched shots, the less change in clouds, etc... Only applicable to landscapes I guess, but that's what I mostly shoot.

    Thanks for all the great suggestions everyone. VERY much appreciated.
    Bob
    I tend to shoot LCC's this way myself in order to minimize the shoot/adjust exposure/LCC/readjust exposure/shoot/adjust exposure/LCC/readjust exposure sequence because its easy to forget to readjust the exposure. I'll often go home with a few shots where I've forgotten to adjust the exposure back and so have to shoot the frame twice (1x idiot shot followed by the correct shot).

    For stitches I'll tend to shoot the desired image sequence and then shoot the LCC's afterwards.

    However, there is lot to be said for the muscle memory approach of shoot/LCC/shoot/LCC style. It's simple and easier to manage within C1 later as it becomes a mechanical process of pairing images with their adjustments.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I tend to shoot LCC's this way myself in order to minimize the shoot/adjust exposure/LCC/readjust exposure/shoot/adjust exposure/LCC/readjust exposure sequence because its easy to forget to readjust the exposure. I'll often go home with a few shots where I've forgotten to adjust the exposure back and so have to shoot the frame twice (1x idiot shot followed by the correct shot).

    For stitches I'll tend to shoot the desired image sequence and then shoot the LCC's afterwards.

    However, there is lot to be said for the muscle memory approach of shoot/LCC/shoot/LCC style. It's simple and easier to manage within C1 later as it becomes a mechanical process of pairing images with their adjustments.
    Of course there are many ways to train your muscle memory. I tend to shoot
    my series (usually bracketed w/ shutterspeed) and then shoot the LCC and Color Checker last. That way I know when I look at them in C1 the final 3 LCCs belong to the preceding series.
    Whatever works, as long as you can remember!!

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Thought about this previously; you could use an LCC layered in Photoshop to achieve illumination even-ness and probably colour correction too, by judicious selection of transfer mode. Must try it one day.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    How do you handle LCCs on long exposures?
    If your exposure is already near the limit of what the back can do, e.g. 90s for the IQ180, would you still add an additional stop or two in exposure time for the LCC?

    -Dominique

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    How about strobes doing interiors or something. Can't add more power. You have to open up
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    That is when it is appropriate to fall back on a library of standard lccs that you have previously prepared.
    -bob

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Seems so
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    If the C1 engineers were really good, you could use the images your camera shifts to make a map of the entire image circle and then use that map to correct any image at any position--it is simply a matter of registering rasters, which could be done automatically if the cast vignetting is apparent in the image. You would have to map the image circle at different apertures, although a model could certainly be made to compensate for any aperture.
    Unfortunately this is not as easy as it might seem. First of all, it is surprisingly difficult to find a shift from an LCC. It looks really simple, but when you try it, the accuracy is just not very good in many realistic scenarios.

    Heck, even lab conditions will drive you mad trying to get the accuracy you think *should* be in the data.

    Also, the LCC does not merely records what the lens does. It records the interaction between the LCC and the sensor, which is something quite different. An LCC can only be applied to images taken with the same camera, and there is a good reason that this is the case.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by EsbenHR View Post
    Unfortunately this is not as easy as it might seem. First of all, it is surprisingly difficult to find a shift from an LCC. It looks really simple, but when you try it, the accuracy is just not very good in many realistic scenarios.

    Heck, even lab conditions will drive you mad trying to get the accuracy you think *should* be in the data.

    Also, the LCC does not merely records what the lens does. It records the interaction between the LCC and the sensor, which is something quite different. An LCC can only be applied to images taken with the same camera, and there is a good reason that this is the case.
    This would certainly make sense. The vignette/color model used in Cornerfix suffers from inaccuracy of the correction curve estimation (taken from averaging multiple samples from radials from the selected center of the image - which for a shift would be offset - and then doing an RGB curve fit from the points) and so was never 'perfect' at the best of times, although not bad.

    I hate how theory and practice never quite match up in the real world sometimes.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    I think a library of good lcc's is not a bad approach. My biggest problem is that the light falling near the camera is often very different to the scene in front of me. And the best images always seem to be in rapidly changing conditions. I might be wrong, but i do think it actually takes quite a bit of reasonably clinical effort in controlled conditions to shoot a good profile.

    Graham, I have no idea why it was in my mind that a lady engineer built corner fix. A bit embarrassing

    Paul

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by EsbenHR View Post
    Also, the LCC does not merely records what the lens does. It records the interaction between the LCC and the sensor, which is something quite different. An LCC can only be applied to images taken with the same camera, and there is a good reason that this is the case.
    Which is why I said you would make the LCC with your specific camera/lens combination. The software would just apply the LCC map you created. You really don't need to make an LCC for every shift position.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Which is why I said you would make the LCC with your specific camera/lens combination. The software would just apply the LCC map you created. You really don't need to make an LCC for every shift position.
    You can capture some information that way, but not everything. A sensor is not sufficiently uniform over its entire area to ignore these effects. The differences are normally calibrated away, but with movements you really do need to calibrate the sensor differently across the sensor.

    It is, unfortunately, not generally possible to map a calibration from one part of the chip to another without sacrificing IQ.

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    How about strobes doing interiors or something. Can't add more power. You have to open up
    Guy, opening to a wider aperture will give inaccurate LCC results, especially in the case where 2 full values more exposure are necessary.

    It's easy enough in the situation you are describing to pop off a portable strobe directly at the plex covering your lens. You'd need to calculate the exposure/distance to the lens of course, but many find this produces great results. If you typically shoot at F11, you'd could repeat this without a lot of fuss.

    Like Graham, I shoot the lenscast reference shots most of the time at the end of the sequence of shots for stitching. For outdoor work with light changing or clouds moving quickly across the scene, the frames for stitching need to be shot in a quick sequence for the best results and less post production headaches later on. So, having the LCC shots at the end works best for me.

    In the case of long exposures, I actually reverse the process and shoot the lenscast reference shots at the beginning of the shoot, knowing that the potential buildup of noise also does not produce a good LCC file. I get the best results keeping the ISO native to the digital back and keeping the LCC exposure under 1 second. In long exposure situations, the portable strobe method works great too. (Nikon SB-900 or similar)

    Lonna

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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Lonna was thinking the same thing just turn the lights towards the camera and go from there. Yes i shoot the LCC after I get the image as well. Just seems to make more sense.

    Great idea on the long exposures. Thanks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  37. #37
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You need to learn how to share Yair. LOL
    OK I'll share:-)

    Shot it yesterday at the Jardins des Serres d’Auteuil in Paris

    Aptus-II 12R, Arca-Swiss Rm2d, SK 43mm, 10mm rise and 12.5mm shift in each direction at f8.3 and 100iso

    Stitched with C1's script
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  38. #38
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    Re: Crazy LCC idea

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    OK I'll share:-)

    Shot it yesterday at the Jardins des Serres d’Auteuil in Paris

    Aptus-II 12R, Arca-Swiss Rm2d, SK 43mm, 10mm rise and 12.5mm shift in each direction at f8.3 and 100iso

    Stitched with C1's script
    Wow!
    Showoff :-)

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