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Thread: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    See the link below (though my German is virtually non-existent, so i can't make much of it):
    http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/HCa...-Phase-One-645

    Apparently this is an adaptor that allows the mounting of RB and RZ lenses on 645 bodies. The adaptor shown is for the Mamiya/Phase 645 mount, but apparently they exist for Pentax 645 and Contax 645 too.

    Focusing is achieved by the adaptor including a helicoid (or should that be an helicoid? Hmmmm.....).

    Anyhow, my question is this - I have no experience of the RB/RZ optics. How do they compare with Pentax 645/67 and Zeiss lenses for digital use? I have a Pentax 645D and would be most interested in the use of this if the lenses are first rate (when used with digital), especially given the lack of new lenses for the camera. My style of shooting would make slow, manual usage no problem. The question is really aimed at understanding what would deliver the best possible result with the body.

    All advice gratefully received. Oh, and if anyone with good German can extract other nuggets from that page, please do share!

    Best wishes,

    Ed
    Last edited by Ed Hurst; 16th June 2011 at 01:56.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Hi Ed

    we do have a complete pressrelease here:
    http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldun...e/boxid/430179
    there are a lot more pictures and
    the text is available as a PDF in english too, I will post it here for you:

    Mamiya RB/RZ lenses to 645 Adapter
    Many of the excellent high quality Mamiya RB/RZ medium format lenses are owned respectively available worldwide for reasonable prices. Many professional and amateur photographers had/have such systems in use. So, it was obvious, to present a solution for the adaptation of these excellent lenses for the Mamiya 645(D) , the Pentax 645D, Contax 645 AF and all of the well known 35mm (D)SLR camera systems (digital or analogue). The smaller camera formats use the optical sweetspot of the RB/RZ lenses, resulting in best sharpness and contrast, even illumination and the absence of chromatic aberration. Many of the special RB/RZ lenses, like the portrait soft M 150mm and 180mm lenses, the legendary Apo telephoto lenses, or the outstanding 140mm macro lens, are perfect for the professional usage.
    The adapter is made with the original Mamiya RB/RZ mounts, the 645 mounts can be rotated (for landscape and portraits etc.) within 90° degree clicks, and is mounted on a massive L- shape trip holder. Thus, even the heaviest RB/RZ lenses can be safely mounted and held firmly. The rugged, milled helicoid tube with 25mm extension, focuses from infinity to close- up (all extension tubes of RB/RZ, 645 or 35mm are usable too!) is extremely stable, made for permanent professional useage, and of silky smooth operation.
    Because of the large image circles of the Mamiya 6x7 cm lenses, these are perfectly suitable for the use with shift & tilt adapters. The firm HCam is already in progress preparing such an S&T adapter, which will be made for the professional and permanent operation. For this, we are using all of our know-how of our Hartblei TS lenses, and will build this TS adapter as a special extension for our RB/RZ adapter, also for 35mm (D)SLR camera bodies. But also in combination with the original Mamiya RZ-TS adapter, and the RZ 75mm and 180mm short barrel lenses, every Mamiya 645 will achieve the shift & tilt movements!
    For our market introduction, we will have a special subscription offer:
    The first 100 pieces will be sold with a reduced introduction price of 975.00 EUR net + VAT. The first row will be available exclusively directly from the firm HCam. The official listing price for the adapter will be 1,275.00 EUR + VAT, available trough professional photo retail stores.
    Orders are taken, starting as of today, the adapters will be delivered beginning of September 2011, the subscription needs to be paid upfront to the firm HCam. We will deliver the adapters in the line of orders with serial numbers starting at 00001.
    The HCam RB/RZ adapter is a cooperation product of Stefan Steib/Munich ( Sales & Marketing ), and WIESE-Fototechnik/Hamburg (Technology & Production )
    Further Information and orders: hartblei.de / hcam.de [email protected] Stefan Steib Hornstr.9 D-80797 München Tel: +49 89 20 333 177 Fax: +49 89 20 333 189 Mobil +49 171 81 90 488

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 14th August 2012 at 11:13.

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    I should probably clarify that my question was primarily aimed at learning how good the RZ/RB lenses are when used digitally. Can anyone give an assessment of this?

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    I think that this will be a fantastic extension to the Mamiya/ Phase One 645 system, especially for those who already own an RZ/RB kit

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Hi Ed

    from my experience of _some_ years of studio and advertising work with it, I would say my favourite was the 140mm makro, on par with the Zeiss 120mm Makro planar if stepped down, whereas back in days of film it was even superior, but this was if 6x6 was compared to 6x7 which actually gave a 4,5x6 slide on the Blad and a full 6x7 on the Mamiya.
    Then all the 4 of the Apo teles are fantastic, if you don´t have any get a run and buy them used as long as they are still cheap.
    The 50 ULD and the newer Floating versions of both of the RZ and the RB are very good, e.g. until recently you could get a 90 K/LA for RB for 150$ which is a joke for the quality this lens delivers.
    Then there are the 2 Soft M´s 150 /RB and 180/RZ . both will be fantastic if you are in the portrait business - Imagon like lenses for a bargain.

    The RZ Short barrels 75 and 180mm are a bit more expensive as they open up view camera movements, something that does not exist right now on the 645´s no matter which brand, their lens quality was and is full up to digital.
    The best proof of quality is that this system was and is the bread and butter moneymaker for generations of Photographers, this would not have been the case if the lenses would have been bad....... ;-)

    regards
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 18th June 2011 at 07:06.

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Question:

    Since the RZ lenses are electronic, and the stop-down lever on the lens doesn't lock, how do you shoot with these adapters?

    I still have a pretty complete set of Mamiya RZ lenses and for years used them with a Leaf Aptus 75/75s on a RZ.

    The 210APO was my favorite and is as good as almost anything out there IMO. The 180 Soft can be used without any of the included Imogon inserts, and is excellent in own right, but lots of creative fun can be had when the soft focus Imagon inserts are applied. Some of the wides can get a tad soft in the corners, but you'll never see any of it since these lenses are for 6X7 coverage and on a 645 are about a 1.5X crop factor (if memory serves) not including whatever crop factor the back being used produces. So the wides are not really wide.

    Lots of unique stuff made for the RZ system. The T/S adapter is helpful with the 140 macro when shooting close up to increase DOF ... but to achieve infinity you have to use the SB lenses (75 & 180) ... these can be used without the T/S unit via the SB spacer tube.

    If they made an adapter for the Leica S2 mount I'd get one. They probably could sell a ton of them since Leica is so slow getting the lenses to market.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Marc

    you can block the apterture lever with a rubber ring, that´s not "chic" but works very well, for people who want this more nice we will do a little blocking device that you can glue on with superglue and can be opened and closed.

    and something else:
    You will get full shift and tilt with all RZ lenses - UP TO INFINITY - on our new HCam-B1v - see also here, my last post:
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...8945/0#9692963

    I guess this adds a lot of fun to the subject.....;-)

    the page with the description is online now:
    http://hartblei.de/en/rbrz645adapter.htm

    greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Just to be sure I've understood this, you're saying that the adaptor itself doesn't stop down the lens, or allow the camera to do so? And that the only way that that can be achieved is to attach an extra device to the lens (which is either a rubber ring or something that gets glued to the lens - which might therefore be hard to remove)? If the rubber ring is used, then the lens is continuously stopped down? If you want the ability to open and close the aperture without removing a device, then you need to use the glued-item option - right?

    Thanks,

    Ed

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Hi Ed

    help is on the way, yesterday we have made a decision to add a little device to the adapter which is to be used to hold the aperture lever stepped down .
    It can be opened and closed and does not get into the way otherwise. The lenses stay untouched.
    And if somebody does not like or need it (the 180mm Soft M e.g. has an aperture lever which can be set closed) there is only one little screw to be opened to remove it.

    Work in Progress.

    regards
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 23rd June 2011 at 01:06.

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    What happened to this thing, was it developed any further?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Still worked on - we have enlarged the diameter of the helicoid, there will be a final prototype hopefully soon ( we are very late now, don´t ask for details, doing small series of mechanical stuff in a mass production world is no fun.....) and I will post availablity here. Definitely !

    Greetings from Germany

    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Good to know, this world needs more small scale artisan work and less mass production if you ask me.

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Any further updates to this Stefan (please)?
    ___________________
    Po-Ming Chu
    POPHOTO

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Not yet. We are still struggling to get this small amount of pieces done by somebody. It´s kind of a nightmare. But I will go on for some more time.
    So- keep watching !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Hi Stefan, I know you have enough problems already but just to throw a little 'curved ball' ;-). What would be the chance of the design being adapted to make it 27,5mm shorter? This would allow the use of the tilt/swing adapter with for example the 50mm ULD lens on the 645 body. And if you wanted to use a lens without the TS Adapter then you just need to put in the 27.5mm adapter ring that is normally used to convert the SB lenses back to 'normal' lenses . . . This would make it a much more compact alternative to the Cambo X2-Pro.
    Cheers, Mark

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Not yet. We are still struggling to get this small amount of pieces done by somebody. It´s kind of a nightmare. But I will go on for some more time.
    So- keep watching !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    I nearly fell off my chair when I first stumbled across these, a few months ago:
    Fotodiox Pro Lens Mount Adapter with Focusing Barrel, for Mamiya RZ67 onto Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax DSLRs.

    Now I know that for $159, the quality can't be up to your Harblei standards, but still...it shows that a niche, small volume product like this can indeed come to market. There can't be a huge market for (non-shift/tilt) RZ67 adapters onto 35mm format cameras...in fact, I even find it a little hard to justify to myself the scenario for using RZ67 adapters on much bigger 645 format cameras, once I get past the "cool idea!" factor and think rationally about it. Just about every great lens the RZ offers, the M645/645AFD also offers, and usually a stop or so faster at that.

    So whether it's the 35mm or M645 adapters, I think these really are solutions for those who already have the RZ lenses. As attractive as it seems on paper - don't we all love clever, modular crossover adaptations? - I can't see myself investing in RZ lenses and an adapter just to use them. That reminds me of "If we had eggs, we could have eggs and ham, if we had ham" . If anything, I'm trying to divest myself of too many seldom-used lenses in other formats. [But maybe I'll be eating my words in several years' time!]

    Ray

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    I think these really are solutions for those who already have the RZ lenses. As attractive as it seems on paper...I can't see myself investing in RZ lenses and an adapter just to use them. That reminds me of "If we had eggs, we could have eggs and ham, if we had ham" . If anything, I'm trying to divest myself of too many seldom-used lenses in other formats. [But maybe I'll be eating my words in several years' time!]

    Ray
    You make a good point, Ray...and yet someone looking for, eg, a 250-500mm high-quality solution (esp for mf) is likely to shave off a grand or three by acquiring such an RZ lens even with the rather hefty cost of the adaptor. I still have the 250 and 350 apo in just about mint nick, which together I paid 1200 dollars for. But as has been pointed out, the aperture shutdown springy thingy still needs a little more elegance.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    The Spring/Aperture problem is solved. There will be a ring on the bajonett to close the spring and aperture, double releasing it will open it again.

    The Fotodiox adapter is not allowing movements which is the prime reason for the RZ lenses to scale down to a smaller format. That is the reason they probably do not sell much of these even at the price.
    I have bought both - the RB and the RZ version to see it and try it, but as already suspected the usability on a 35mm body without movements just doesn´t make much sense. Too big and no advantage, unless you only have some RB/RZ Lenses and Not enough 35mm lenses.

    So this adapter essentially misses the core reason to make the adapter.

    And for the technical wish to make it 27,5 mm shorter:
    Sorry -impossible that would leave just enough space to have the two mounts screwed together with no helicoid.

    The thing looks simple , but actually it is pretty tricky. There are some factors which define Size, diameter, flange focal distance and needed focusing hub.
    The way it looks was tried and calculated. It cannot be made much different from the prototype´s look.

    And if we do not manage to find someone finally to make this helicoid to our needed specs, the project will be canceled. I will try for some more months but if it´s not done by Summer, we will officially stop it.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by arionelli View Post
    You make a good point, Ray...and yet someone looking for, eg, a 250-500mm high-quality solution (esp for mf) is likely to shave off a grand or three by acquiring such an RZ lens even with the rather hefty cost of the adaptor. I still have the 250 and 350 apo in just about mint nick, which together I paid 1200 dollars for. But as has been pointed out, the aperture shutdown springy thingy still needs a little more elegance.
    Yeah, it's the RZ APO telephotos that I would be interested in also.

    At 500mm, for example, the choices are:
    1) M645 500/5.6...reasonably fast, but not APO
    2) M645 500/8 mirror...good optics, compact, but too slow
    3) M645 500/4.5 APO...dream-ticket lens, very fast and APO, but too expensive and somewhat hard to find
    4) 645DF 240/4.5 LS D + 2x Schneider [= 480/9]...presumably APO, but much too slow, too expensive, only works on DF/DF+ bodies

    So if one could add:
    5) RZ 500/6...reasonably fast, APO, mid-priced.
    ...that could tempt me alright.

    Of course,
    6) there are other adaptable 500mm teles from Hasselblad & Bronica, some of them APO, but none is faster than f/8 AFAIK.
    7) And the adaptable 500/5.6 offerings from Pentax 67 and Pentacon/Prakticar are just like the M645 500/5.6: none are APOs.
    8) For completeness, I should also mention some other P6 lenses: the Arsat 500/5.6 APO which is unfortunately super-rare;
    9) and the 500/8 and 500/5.6 Rubinars which are really M42 mount lenses that become >600mm lenses (and vignette & lose some speed, ~f9.6 and ~f6.7 respectively) when the optics are respaced for the P6 mount.

    So it seems that if one wants a 500mm lens for the 645 Mamiyas which is both APO and fast enough to use the electronic rangefinder, the only choices are the M645 500/4.5 and the RZ 500/6.

    You see how easy it is to talk oneself into this...!

    Ray

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    Re: Mount adaptors with helicoid for RB/RZ lenses

    I you want fast and long, then SMC Pentax-M* 67 400mm f/4 ED is a choice. If longer, SMC Pentax-M 67 800mm f/6.7 ED.

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