wide lens IQ 180 shoot out: Digitar 28XL versus Digaron 32HR-W

[Christopher]

Jack, what ? You need to install it twice on macs ? Here on Windows I install it once and get both 32 and 64bit version installed. (CS4 and CS5) So for me, if i need to use the Alpa tool I just fire up the 32bit version instead of the 64bit and edit the image. After that i go back to 64bit. It's not perfect, but works quite good. Shifts are dialed in in mm. So you can add put in the excat movment you used. for example 7 up and 4 to the left. The tool does the rest. There are many more features and editing options, but that is getting complicated.

 

[Jack]

To clarify, I usually have CS5 open and running in 64 bit. So in order to use the Alpa corrector, ideally I would have a separate 32 bit installation -- CS4 is on my machine too, so that could maybe do it. Just seems a PITA, but at least it is a solution for now...

Update: Okay, loaded the Alpa LC in CS4 and gave it a whirl. Seems pretty easy and intuitive, so problem solved -- THANK YOU! Stupid question though, on the correction folders, what is the difference between the P65 and P65SPM sets? Edit: Found SPM = Sensor Plus Mode

I think a tiny white board to put in the frame for rise and shift may be in order

 

[rupho]

Thanks Christopher, but I am a bit concerned over the "more distortion" issue of the 40 compared to the 43...

Jack what made you choose the HR40 over the 43XL? Since you prefer Rodenstock. I made the opposite choice and got the 43xl

Great choice Jack, it is larger than the 43mm, but I am quite sure you will really like the lens.

What is the verdict out here comparing the HR40 versus the HR50.cis there a clear winner?

Hey,

I wanted to thank Grischa and Yat for meeting me in Hong Kong. I had a great time and was happy that i could help you Grischa, to spend some more money

My pleasure Christopher .
A small off topic update. Phase One exchanged my IQ180 before I left and this one certainly is a lot better than the first one. Especially the damaged files are completly gone.

Tell me about it I am on my third IQ180 now :wtf: first One exposed only half the frame , then loaner and not it seems to work

 

[yaya]

Hard to tell what's going on at the link in terms of the author's quality expectations, but it does raise the question of whether experience with the Leaf 80 meg back has been any different on issues of WA and shift color shifts.

Expectations is the key word here. We knew what to expect and we worked with these limitations in mind.

Shooting those interiors required not more than a few mm rise on the horizontal frames and Leaf Capture's lens calibration tool handled it very well

As a thumb rule I would say that if you see Blue towards the edges you know that you need to back off a bit.

Also, in "emergency" you can use Sensorflex and set the back to shoot 60MP crop, doing away with the edges and giving you a bit more room for shifting (albeit making the lens a bit longer and the file a bit smaller)

And with Live View if you use Sensorflex tethered WYSIWYG so framing is quite easy

It's all about knowing the capabilities of your tools and planing the job properly IMO

Yair

 

[Jack]

Jack what made you choose the HR40 over the 43XL? Since you prefer Rodenstock. I made the opposite choice and got the 43xl

It was available sooner . Notwithstanding, it is a hair wider and closer to my "ideal" lens set formula.

 

[David Klepacki]

dear all,
beware of the new Schneider 28mmXL Digitar on the IQ180.
It got uncontrollable color cast EVEN WITHOUT SHIFT!

Grischa, thank you for posting these tests. They are very interesting.

This begs the question as to whether or not the Phase One 28mm lens will also exhibit similar color cast issues with the IQ180.

Does anyone know if the Phase One 28mm lens will require LCC with the IQ180, and if so how well any color cast is corrected?

David

 

[Jack]

Grischa, thank you for posting these tests. They are very interesting.

This begs the question as to whether or not the Phase One 28mm lens will also exhibit similar color cast issues with the IQ180.

Does anyone know if the Phase One 28mm lens will require LCC with the IQ180, and if so how well any color cast is corrected?

David

No, it doesn't.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No, it doesn't.

+1 it does not

 

[dougpeterson]

To super over simplify: It's all about the lens-to-sensor distance not the lens focal length. So the Phase One 28mm D which sits in front of a mirror box does not require LCC.

 

[David Klepacki]

Thanks, that's what I would have expected.

It is interesting that the Leica M9 does not have a mirror and their lenses sit really close to the sensor, much like the case of the Schneider 28XL in conjunction with the IQ180 in this thread. Somehow, Leica seems to be able to provide clean images even at the 16mm focal length of their Tri-Elmar lens, where the light rays hitting the sensor would be even more oblique than the case with the 28XL + IQ180 here.

So, did Phase One simply overlook this technical issue in their design of the IQ180, as this customer Grischa seems to be the first one to discover it? Or, was there indeed a disclosure by Phase One on this matter when the IQ180 was announced?

 

[stephengilbert]

Doesn't the M9 use microlenses?

 

[cmb_]

Doesn't the M9 use microlenses?

Yes, offset microlenses and the sensor is roughly 24 x 36 and 18 megapixels with a 6.8 pixel pitch.

 

[cmb_]

. . . as this customer Grischa seems to be the first one to discover it?

Actually, there has been much discussion about the color cast from the IQ 180 for quite some time now.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know the answer, but I would gues Phase new exactly what could happen, they peraps only hoped it wouldn't be that bad ? Or they just said that one has to use different lenses with the IQ180. I don't think we will ever get a straight answer.

 

[Terry]

Thanks, that's what I would have expected.

It is interesting that the Leica M9 does not have a mirror and their lenses sit really close to the sensor, much like the case of the Schneider 28XL in conjunction with the IQ180 in this thread. Somehow, Leica seems to be able to provide clean images even at the 16mm focal length of their Tri-Elmar lens, where the light rays hitting the sensor would be even more oblique than the case with the 28XL + IQ180 here.

So, did Phase One simply overlook this technical issue in their design of the IQ180, as this customer Grischa seems to be the first one to discover it? Or, was there indeed a disclosure by Phase One on this matter when the IQ180 was announced?

In addition to the micro lenses, each of the lenses is coded and the camera can tell by the coding what lens is in use and make specific adjustments for that lens. Interesting that in the M9 firmware that was released this week here is a snippet from the release notes:

"Improvement of the sensor homogeneity for wide-angle lenses
There is an additional colour calibration for all wide-angle lenses, that minimizes chromatic deviations between image centre and image corner, especially in critical shooting situations."

 

[stephengilbert]

"Yes, offset microlenses and the sensor is roughly 24 x 36 and 18 megapixels with a 6.8 pixel pitch."

Which is in part why the M9 doesn't present the same problems as an IQ180.

 

[yaya]

If I'm not mistaken, leical M lenses are retrofocal and do not offer any displacement option

 

[Stefan Steib]

the Leica Flange Focal Distance is 27,8mm.
The short Schneiders 24 +28mm do have less than half/respectively 1/3 of that back lens clearance to the chip.
The 3 Rodenstock HR Digaron S which use retrofocus are: 24mm S has 16mm which is already significantly more, the 28mm S has 16,4mm and the 35mm has 24,3mm. Still not that much but obviously "to be handled".
It would be interesting though to which extent and angle the pixelsize and the angle with offset will run into the same problems as the schneiders if the Backs get even more resolution.
In comparison the Canon flange focal distance is 44mm, so there is plenty of reserve for theoretical pixel shrinking and resolution improvement.
Downsize: retrofocus does have a limitation in theoretical sharpness, but as can be seen with the newest TS lenses 17+24II are doing pretty well in going very close to that limit.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[gazwas]

A little OT but has anyone seen any images shot with the SK 28XL on a P65+ so we can get an idea of the colour casts and fall off in comparison to the IQ180?

As a tech camera only shooter (don't own any Phamiya stuff) I'm beginning to think the best upgrade from my P65+ is to not upgrade after seeing all this latest info. The only reason I went MFD was for camera movements and if this trend continues as inevitably MP will rise in MFD, it puts a nail in the coffin for future upgrades for me.

So unless the next gen of chips addresses this in some way or lens manufacturers release new lens designs without them all costing the same price as the massively expensive 32HR then I'll sit here and watch this one out.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Gareth
sorry , but I cannot resist: This is why we have built the HCam-B1.
80 Mpix with no color Cast, no chromas and pretty good sharpness down to 17mm (125 degr.) with movements.
A Zillion lenses to be put on, and even less costly than the traditional solutions.

Greetings from Munich

Stefan Steib www.hcam.de