wide lens IQ 180 shoot out: Digitar 28XL versus Digaron 32HR-W

[cly]

Gareth
sorry , but I cannot resist: This is why we have built the HCam-B1.
80 Mpix with no color Cast, no chromas and pretty good sharpness down to 17mm (125 degr.) with movements.
A Zillion lenses to be put on, and even less costly than the traditional solutions.
www.hcam.de

sorry Stefan, but I cannot resist

One point of using a traditional pancake cam is that you get movements with each and every lens (assuming a sufficiently large IC) as movements are in the body. It seems to me that with the HCam you get movements if the lens you use offers movements. This, if I am right, reduces the selection of lenses considerably if you need movements.

Chris

 

[David K]

I find this golf club analogy quite apt... YMMV.

"There is always heated debate around the clubhouse over which is better forged irons or cast irons. The real difference isn't as much in how the irons are made, however, as in how they are played. Forged irons are made with a less forgiving nature as a rule thanks to a relatively small sweet spot that requires good aim, steady swing, and controlled contact. The forged irons have long been considered an advanced iron for that reason.

Most golfers know deep down when their game is not up to a more difficult iron. The tendency to want to be better than their game proves they are, however, often tempts players to go for clubs that are beyond their abilities. Those are the times you will most often hear a club being maligned as less than what the manufacturers claim they are. In reality, manufacturers go to great lengths to describe the real qualities of their clubs and how they will work for each individual player.


The debate over which is best, forged or cast irons, may never end. What really matters is what is best for you and your game at any particular time that makes a club work or not. Make your decisions based on your own needs not on what others think is hot or superior and you will get the most out of your own game every time."

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Chris

we actually have at least as many lenses with movements available as do exist for digital - quality usage on pancake cams.
There are now 3 Hartblei Zeiss lenses, 4 Canon TS lenses, 3 Nikon MicroPC´s, a 24mm Olympus Shift, a Mamiya 645 shift, then the Mirex solution for all Mamiya645 and all Hasselblad V lenses with full TS , all the Zoerkendorfer TS stuff(for various lenses) and last but not least our new Mamiya RB/RZ-to Mamiya 645 adapter for ALL RB/RZ lenses with full movements either with the TS Mirex, the Mamiya RZ TS adapter or our future HCam 35mm TS adapter.

This makes some.....hundreds of possible combinations from 17mm to Superteles.

I guess this is sufficient.

regards
Stefan

 

[gazwas]

The debate over which is best, forged or cast irons, may never end. What really matters is what is best for you and your game at any particular time that makes a club work or not. Make your decisions based on your own needs not on what others think is hot or superior and you will get the most out of your own game every time."

Sorry I don't get the relevance.

This is not a tit for tat golf club bar discussion about golf bats but a rather informative topic about what works and what doesn't with the latest IQ180 back in relation to equipment that people may be thinking of buying or already own.

A mistaken purchase at this level is usually as costly as the average golfers car, never mind golf clubs.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Gareth my IQ 160 will be here today and next week a friend has a 28 on a Cambo. If you like I will run a full test with it .

 

[David K]

Gareth, the point I attempted to make (perhaps poorly) is that this system seems to require quite a bit of technical knowledge, e.g. which lenses are best suited for the back, the degree of shift that will yield acceptable casts, the limitations of the software to correct excessive casts, whether center filters should or should not be used, which mounting plate will provide the correct fit on the Alpa, etc. In short an in depth knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of the back. Nothing wrong with that if the end user is up to the task, e.g. Jack, Guy, Seibel, Don, etc. The reference in my golf analogy to the golfer who wants to be better than his game applies to me... but I suspect I'm not alone in this regard. Sorry if the analogy missed the point I was trying to make.

 

[Woody Campbell]

Gareth my IQ 160 will be here today and next week a friend has a 28 on a Cambo. If you like I will run a full test with it .

Thanks. Plus any other lenses he has!

 

[gazwas]

Gareth my IQ 160 will be here today and next week a friend has a 28 on a Cambo. If you like I will run a full test with it .

Gosh that was quick!

Yes, some results with the 28XL on the IQ160 would be fabulous, thanks Guy. My gut feeling is you made the correct decision on the 160 and it seems to be the perfect tech/view camera back.

Just wish the live view questions would be answered by now (does it work) but we're still waiting on Phase for that one. oke:

 

[Terry]

David,
I don't think it is a matter of being extremely difficult once you know and understand the facts and work with the files. So few people have these lenses and then finding someone using the same lens with the same tech camera with the same back is even rarer. Like Gareth points out, the wrench thrown into the works is the IQ180 back. And to put number to his comment about these decisions being pricey, the 32HR in Alpa mount is coming in above $9700. At that price and with a limited market it is not really practical to try it out and sell if it doesn't suit your needs.

Personally, considering the buildup from Phase about the IQ backs on tech cameras, I really do think they should be more forthcoming (and very soon) with a white paper that goes through the lens performance (on the major Schneiders and Rhodenstocks) showing the LCCs straight on and with shifts/tilts/swings. I know Doug at CI is doing work on this and will post soon but again they don't have access to all of the lens that we are trying to evaluate.







.

 

[gazwas]

Gareth, the point I attempted to make (perhaps poorly) is that this system seems to require quite a bit of technical knowledge, e.g. which lenses are best suited for the back, the degree of shift that will yield acceptable casts, the limitations of the software to correct excessive casts, whether center filters should or should not be used, which mounting plate will provide the correct fit on the Alpa, etc. In short an in depth knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of the back. Nothing wrong with that if the end user is up to the task, e.g. Jack, Guy, Seibel, Don, etc. The reference in my golf analogy to the golfer who wants to be better than his game applies to me... but I suspect I'm not alone in this regard. Sorry if the analogy missed the point I was trying to make.

Oh OK!

However, in relation to the IQ180 its more about what does and doesn't work very well rather than ones ability, especially considering we have a choice between the equally amazing IQ160 (same as the P65+ chip) and IQ180.

Unless something changes or the IQ160's are different to the P65+, the IQ160 seems the choice full frame back for the tech shooter in the market for a new back IMO.

 

[David K]

Terry,
I remember when you went tech and got a little bit teased about it. I kind of scratched my head when you did but I do admire and respect those of you who have the energy and dedication to work through this stuff. The results certainly seem to warrant the effort. And I appreciate that the learning curve can be fun in and of itself. It used to be for me when i was shooting the Sinar back on multiple platforms. I guess I've gotten lazy in my old age. BTW, I had no idea that lenses were that expensive. Welcome to lala Leica land pricing

 

[cmb_]

. . . especially considering we have a choice between the equally amazing IQ160 (same as the P65+ chip) and IQ180.

I might add that in the 80MP camp we have a choice between the IQ180 and the Leaf Aptus II 12 - and has it been demonstrated that both exhibit the same characteristics regarding color cast? - then there is the IQ160 or P65+ or Hasselblad 60MP.

 

[Woody Campbell]

I might add that in the 80MP camp we have a choice between the IQ180 and the Leaf Aptus II 12 - and has it been demonstrated that both exhibit the same characteristics regarding color cast? - then there is the IQ160 or P65+ or Hasselblad 60MP.

I've used the Hasselblad 60 extensively on a tech camera. Color casts are modest and controllable. The issue is that the 60 is H's first experience with a Dalsa chip and they are marketing tight integration for their entire system. Use of their backs on tech cameras is very much a secondary issue for them. Shifted my back exhibits centerfolding and banding - two well known issues with Dalsa chips that the engineers should be able to resolve but it requires a real application of resources on their part. This issue does not affect the thousands of happy shooters who work entirely within the Hasselblad system.

The H60 chip is the same as the IQ 160 and the P65 +. I expect that color casts will be a controllable issue on the IQ 160 but would like to see it tested.

 

[Jack]

I will repeat this because I think folks are making a bigger deal out of it than it is -- The P65+ still color casts to the point *I* needed an LCC for every frame anyway, zeroed or not. What is relevant is that because of the additional cast of the smaller pixel IQ180 back, you loose a bit more useable IC out of any given lens. However, I have found that the lenses I shot with were already falling off pretty significantly *resolution-wise* BEFORE they hit the wall on the 180's LCC/IC limit. So yes, *IF* you want the widest IC and DO NOT CARE ABOUT RESOLUTION, the 60MP back is a better choice -- and an older 22MP back is an even BETTER choice... Oh, but wait a minute Jack

 

[Jan Brittenson]

There are 3 things still going for non-retrofocus lenses:

1. Lack of distortion
2. Lack of aberrations
3. Size/weight (and thus lower cost)

If retrofocus lenses can be designed so that they tick these 3 boxes then this will be a big step forward

There are still benefits to a short sensor distance. You can, for instance, add elements behind the rear nodal point to straighten out the light path. So even in the most naive case you can take a lens designed for a mirror box and improve on it. More generally, you can hybridize retrofocus designs (what Leica has done in all its late M wide angles) so they're no longer retrofocus by enclosing the rear nodal point inside the barrel as a design choice from the outset.

 

[gazwas]

Does anyone know the flange focal distance and rear element to focal distance of the 28XL as I'm trying to work out if I can use this lens on my Arca ML2. The 32HR-W seems the obvious choice but the price of that lens is very off putting.

 

[Jack]

Mantra 3: The price will be forgotten within 2 days of the purchase if it's a great lens. And the 32 is a great lens

 

[etrump]

Mantra 3: The price will be forgotten within 2 days of the purchase if it's a great lens. And the 32 is a great lens

Ditto twice! Amazing that it is a retro-focus design and that sharp.

 

[etrump]

Does anyone know the flange focal distance and rear element to focal distance of the 28XL as I'm trying to work out if I can use this lens on my Arca ML2. The 32HR-W seems the obvious choice but the price of that lens is very off putting.

I wouldn't consider the 28XL if you ever intend to use the 60 or 80mp sensors.

 

[gazwas]

I wouldn't consider the 28XL if you ever intend to use the 60 or 80mp sensors.

So you don't think it will be suitable even on 60mp backs as I want it for use on a P65+.

Looks like I'll have to do more saving up then. :bugeyes: