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Leaf AFi 10 (with more to follow)

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Nick -- digital lenses are more or less a marketing ploy. Lenses are lenses...they can be optimized for one thing rather than an other, but a good lens is a good lens. The concept of digital lenses evolved from large format studio shooters in the earlier days. They were using lenses like the 210mm APO-symmar that you are describing, but they were using it for 24x36mm sensors. The 210mm apo symmar will cover 8x10 inches, and it is optimized for 4x5 -- clearly, it is way too large to be dealing with a 24x36mm sensor, or even a 48x36mm sensor. The lens makers like Schneider and Rodenstock noticed the disparity in the market, so they started to design lenses like the 28mm digitar, 47mm digitar, 150mm and so on -- they were designed specifically with digital in mind -- they had a smaller image circle, but arranged for the light rays to hit the sensor more evenly (normally, large format wide angles had rear elements very close to the film plane -- they are easy to design with high performance on film, but digital sensors do not work as well with them).

But when we come to SLR's, the Rollei lenses for example are already designed to cover 6x6, and the "digital lenses" still need to cover about the same amount. Since it is an SLR, the lenses' rear elements are already fairly far from the film/sensor, so the retrofocal issue that plagued large format lenses is not an issue. Basically, the idea of a "digital" rolleiflex lens is just a marketing idea. This is not to say they are not better, it is certainly possible that they make better lenses and call them "digital", but there is nothing inherent in the design of the old film lenses that makes them unsuitable for digital.

As I said before, the Rollei macro lenses are superb -- so good in fact that they don't need updating as "digital lenses", where the old Mamiya 645 lenses for example needed revamping. The Hasselblad H lenses are of course designed after digital, so their basic design already takes it into account.

I guess my long winded point is that there is no reason to design "digital specific" lenses for a 6x6 SLR -- the image circle for digital is the same size as it was for film, and since it is an SLR, the lenses are already retrofocal enough to avoid the need of a lens redesign. While it is always possible to make better lenses, there is nothing about the current lens line that makes it unsuitable for digital use.
 

EH21

Member
Just adding in a bit more info on options for macro and definitely agree the system is very good for macro work. Besides the lenses mentioned, the Rollei M39 shutter adapter allows the use of any number of different optics. I've got several apo rodagon enlarging lenses that make awesome taking lenses and also have a schneider 80mm makro-symmar industrial lens which is just wonderful and has completely surprised me with its incredible performance. I have both the Rollei 90mm and 120mm macro lenses and both are good, but the 90mm is more versatile. It will focus closer with out extension, equally great both close up and at a distance, and is very light weight. The 120 has a different look completely. Reminds me of my 50mm leica sumicron, but is really sharp at like portrait distance and closer.
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
Yair my friend, this looks like exactly what I need to shoot the stuff I am today. Now, all you need to do is help me find a decent buyer for my Aptus 75S & Contax kit, and I am there...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Nick -- digital lenses are more or less a marketing ploy. Lenses are lenses...they can be optimized for one thing rather than an other, but a good lens is a good lens. The concept of digital lenses evolved from large format studio shooters in the earlier days. They were using lenses like the 210mm APO-symmar that you are describing, but they were using it for 24x36mm sensors. The 210mm apo symmar will cover 8x10 inches, and it is optimized for 4x5 -- clearly, it is way too large to be dealing with a 24x36mm sensor, or even a 48x36mm sensor. The lens makers like Schneider and Rodenstock noticed the disparity in the market, so they started to design lenses like the 28mm digitar, 47mm digitar, 150mm and so on -- they were designed specifically with digital in mind -- they had a smaller image circle, but arranged for the light rays to hit the sensor more evenly (normally, large format wide angles had rear elements very close to the film plane -- they are easy to design with high performance on film, but digital sensors do not work as well with them).

But when we come to SLR's, the Rollei lenses for example are already designed to cover 6x6, and the "digital lenses" still need to cover about the same amount. Since it is an SLR, the lenses' rear elements are already fairly far from the film/sensor, so the retrofocal issue that plagued large format lenses is not an issue. Basically, the idea of a "digital" rolleiflex lens is just a marketing idea. This is not to say they are not better, it is certainly possible that they make better lenses and call them "digital", but there is nothing inherent in the design of the old film lenses that makes them unsuitable for digital.

As I said before, the Rollei macro lenses are superb -- so good in fact that they don't need updating as "digital lenses", where the old Mamiya 645 lenses for example needed revamping. The Hasselblad H lenses are of course designed after digital, so their basic design already takes it into account.

I guess my long winded point is that there is no reason to design "digital specific" lenses for a 6x6 SLR -- the image circle for digital is the same size as it was for film, and since it is an SLR, the lenses are already retrofocal enough to avoid the need of a lens redesign. While it is always possible to make better lenses, there is nothing about the current lens line that makes it unsuitable for digital use.
Finally, someone just said it. Thanks Stuart.

The real driver for this was large format lenses and the popularity of 6X9 tech cameras for use with digital backs. The smaller image circle, usually APO design "digital" lenses do perform better ... in fact in my experience to date, outperform anything else. Use of these lenses are the real test of a digital back ... and dispell the myth that this back or that back is "sharper" than another. Put a well aligned back on one of these cameras and the truth is quickly apparent ... they're all wickedly capable.
 
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nickr

Guest
Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems though, the two key questions for me will need to be carefully tested once the Leaf and Hassy 50+MP backs are available.

One is, will the Zeiss Makro Apogon MF 120 mm f/4 HFT PQS shot on the Leaf AFI 10 be as sharp and as digitally perfect as the Hassy 120 mm macro shot on the coming Hassy H3 50 MP?

The other is, will the Hassy HST 1.5 work perfectly on the H1 with Leaf AFI 10 or will it only work perfectly on the coming H3 50 MP?

For me, these two questions are the critical reasons why I would stay with Leaf 10 on my H1 or switch my entire system to all Hassy H3 50 MP.
 

Nick-T

New member
The other is, will the Hassy HST 1.5 work perfectly on the H1 with Leaf AFI 10 or will it only work perfectly on the coming H3 50 MP?
The HTS will work with a non H3D back on an H series, but without the benefit of DAC corrections, in other words the HTS will perform better when the DAC corrections are performed (as do other HC lenses).
Nick-T
 
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nickr

Guest
The HTS will work with a non H3D back on an H series, but without the benefit of DAC corrections, in other words the HTS will perform better when the DAC corrections are performed (as do other HC lenses).
Nick-T
Sorry to be so thick, but you say the HTS will work with an H1 body but without DAC corrections. Doesn't that mean it won't work? Don't you need DAC corrections?

Can you be more specific, if you shoot an HTS on an H1 what exactly is missing, how and in what visual way is the image inferior to an HTS shot on an H3? What do you lose when you lose DAC?

Also, you say the HTS will perform better when DAC corrections are performed; so, what do you mean by "better"; and do you also mean that somehow in post or whatever that DAC corrections can eventually be performed when originally using the HTS on an H1, or are you saying DAC corrections can never be achieved with an HTS on an H1?

Thanks!
 

Nick-T

New member
Sorry to be so thick, but you say the HTS will work with an H1 body but without DAC corrections. Doesn't that mean it won't work? Don't you need DAC corrections?

Can you be more specific, if you shoot an HTS on an H1 what exactly is missing, how and in what visual way is the image inferior to an HTS shot on an H3? What do you lose when you lose DAC?

Also, you say the HTS will perform better when DAC corrections are performed; so, what do you mean by "better"; and do you also mean that somehow in post or whatever that DAC corrections can eventually be performed when originally using the HTS on an H1, or are you saying DAC corrections can never be achieved with an HTS on an H1?

Thanks!
DAC corrections correct for chromatic aberration, distortion, and vignetting. With the HTS the DAC corrections will also compensate for the change in focal plane caused by a tilt.This is done in Hasselblad's own software and is based on data from the lens being passed back to the image. If you know the aperture, focal length, and focus distance, and in the case of the HTS degree of tilt/shift; you can compensate for aberrations produced under a given set of circumstances. The HTS is unique (to the best of my knowledge) in it's ability to pass back the tilt/shift settings, (by way of sensors) used to the software.
This means that on an H1 or H2 the HTS will work but without the benefit of DAC so you might see chromatic aberration (colour fringeing) with the HTS on an H2 where you would not see it on an H3D.
Hope that makes sense
Nick-T
 

fotografz

Well-known member
DAC corrections correct for chromatic aberration, distortion, and vignetting. With the HTS the DAC corrections will also compensate for the change in focal plane caused by a tilt.This is done in Hasselblad's own software and is based on data from the lens being passed back to the image. If you know the aperture, focal length, and focus distance, and in the case of the HTS degree of tilt/shift; you can compensate for aberrations produced under a given set of circumstances. The HTS is unique (to the best of my knowledge) in it's ability to pass back the tilt/shift settings, (by way of sensors) used to the software.
This means that on an H1 or H2 the HTS will work but without the benefit of DAC so you might see chromatic aberration (colour fringeing) with the HTS on an H2 where you would not see it on an H3D.
Hope that makes sense
Nick-T
I wonder if the elves will include corrections for use of the HTS with the H3D-II/31 Nick? It seems you could plot color shift for key lenses and include it in automatic software corrections also. Maybe a bit much to ask, but it does seem possible doesn't it? Or are there to many variables?

BTW, someone should tell Hasselblad to try nicely finished metel knobs instead of plastic ... at least make it look like the price it will cost ;)
 
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nickr

Guest
I wonder if the elves will include corrections for use of the HTS with the H3D-II/31 Nick? It seems you could plot color shift for key lenses and include it in automatic software corrections also. Maybe a bit much to ask, but it does seem possible doesn't it? Or are there to many variables?

BTW, someone should tell Hasselblad to try nicely finished metel knobs instead of plastic ... at least make it look like the price it will cost ;)
Jeez, what do you expect for only $5,300, a view camera? (sarcasm)

On the other note, wouldn't want to be involved in that, CA in post is a huge headache.
 

Nick-T

New member
I'm not sure if DAC could deal with colour shifts as it does vignetting, I guess that's what custom colour is for (enabled in Phocus 1.1).
Nick-T
 

yaya

Active member
I wonder if the elves will include corrections for use of the HTS with the H3D-II/31 Nick? It seems you could plot color shift for key lenses and include it in automatic software corrections also. Maybe a bit much to ask, but it does seem possible doesn't it? Or are there to many variables?

BTW, someone should tell Hasselblad to try nicely finished metel knobs instead of plastic ... at least make it look like the price it will cost ;)
Why would you get colour shifts? It is not a view camera and you'll be using retrofocus lenses...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Why would you get colour shifts? It is not a view camera and you'll be using retrofocus lenses...
Not an issue with 22 meg, 39 meg, and I assume 50 meg backs ... but the 31 meg back employs micro lenses similar to the Phase One counterpart ... and are not optimal for T/S work on a Tech camera due to color shifts with more extreme shifts or tilts. I assume this would be true here also ... but maybe not. That is a good question actually.

If it is true, the question then is, could a software solution be formulated, since the specific lens data is tranmitted to the file when using the HTS? Not the DAC already available, but another software option to correct the color shifts with the H3D/31 micro lens backs.

I guess we'll see. I know Mark K is very interested in this possible solution for his H3D-II/31.
 

yaya

Active member
Not an issue with 22 meg, 39 meg, and I assume 50 meg backs ... but the 31 meg back employs micro lenses similar to the Phase One counterpart ... and are not optimal for T/S work on a Tech camera due to color shifts with more extreme shifts or tilts. I assume this would be true here also ... but maybe not. That is a good question actually.

If it is true, the question then is, could a software solution be formulated, since the specific lens data is tranmitted to the file when using the HTS? Not the DAC already available, but another software option to correct the color shifts with the H3D/31 micro lens backs.

I guess we'll see. I know Mark K is very interested in this possible solution for his H3D-II/31.
When used on a view camera with a non-retrofocal lens, 22, 39 and probably 50 will produce colour shifts that can be corrected by using a diffuser filter and doing a calibration (each manufacturer has a different name for it with a different procedure).

The 31MP Kodak, because of the microlenses, may have shifts that cannot be corrected in this situation.

But the HTS makes your retrofocus lenses sit even farther away from the sensor so there should not be any problems. I don't know of anyone who's got problems with a Canon or a Nikon and T/S lenses...same thing...

Yair
 
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nickr

Guest
When used on a view camera with a non-retrofocal lens, 22, 39 and probably 50 will produce colour shifts that can be corrected by using a diffuser filter and doing a calibration (each manufacturer has a different name for it with a different procedure).

The 31MP Kodak, because of the microlenses, may have shifts that cannot be corrected in this situation.

But the HTS makes your retrofocus lenses sit even farther away from the sensor so there should not be any problems. I don't know of anyone who's got problems with a Canon or a Nikon and T/S lenses...same thing...

Yair
Okay, but I thought the original comment was that the HTS 1.5 on an H1 body would be a problem because the H1 lacks connective features that the H3 has? It seems to me the HTS was made for the new H3, not the H1 and that was my original question. Of course, no one has done this test yet, so it's all theory right now, correct?
 

yaya

Active member
Okay, but I thought the original comment was that the HTS 1.5 on an H1 body would be a problem because the H1 lacks connective features that the H3 has? It seems to me the HTS was made for the new H3, not the H1 and that was my original question. Of course, no one has done this test yet, so it's all theory right now, correct?
It'll only be a problem on the H1 if its optics are poorly designed, but we don't know that yet...

The comment was about the 31MP Vs the others with regards to performing with movements since it's got problems on view cameras...but the HTS is not a view camera...

Yair
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Okay, but I thought the original comment was that the HTS 1.5 on an H1 body would be a problem because the H1 lacks connective features that the H3 has? It seems to me the HTS was made for the new H3, not the H1 and that was my original question. Of course, no one has done this test yet, so it's all theory right now, correct?
It's not a problem any more than any tech camera would be. I use the H backs on a Rollei Xact2 which has zero connectivity. It sounds like the connectivity of the HTS is similar to that of the H3 cameras which provides added DAC benefits available in the software.

What Yair proposes is that the HTS may not produce the color shifts with the microlens backs that happens on tech cameras. That is remains to be seen.
 
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nickr

Guest
It's not a problem any more than any tech camera would be. I use the H backs on a Rollei Xact2 which has zero connectivity. It sounds like the connectivity of the HTS is similar to that of the H3 cameras which provides added DAC benefits available in the software.

What Yair proposes is that the HTS may not produce the color shifts with the microlens backs that happens on tech cameras. That is remains to be seen.
I suspect the HTS will not work with the H1 body. For one, Hblad says nothing about this on their site, and two, they've already shown they care little about component continuity as evidenced by the H1 and H2 bodies not being compatible with the new 28mm lens. They want to sell H3's with their digital back and no one elses, that's obvious.
 
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