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Thread: surprised or not?

  1. #51
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: surprised or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think a lot of the responses in this thread serve to re-enforce the point I made about so many alternative demands on the manufacturers that it must absolutely drive them crazy ... and, IMO, if they respond to all these demands. it will serve to take the eye off the ball as to what MFD is really all about ... IQ ... just like Peter said in the beginning.

    On the other hand, users and potential users feel they know what they want ... however, I would offer that those "wants" are based on previous experience more than "what can be" ... maybe even "should be." I also think many folks aren't aware of where these MFD systems are currently ... and I'd suggest renting to find out. Actually experiencing them is a lot different than theoretically chatting about them on-line.

    As Yair pointed out, a couple of these forums only represent a fraction of actual MFD users. Lots of landscape shooters and advanced amateurs (not meant as a negative,) that isn't truly representative of the universe of MFD shooters. Anyone making a living with this stuff has incredible demands put on them to produce very versatile files that increasingly are serving a multitude of usages, cropping and manipulation. In this environment, IQ is king. Moiré is a no-no, small file size doesn't cut it, color fidelity is paramount. and so on. I'd estimate that 90% of the end result of MFD work ends up being produced in CMYK printed on paper, not RGB out-puts from a inkjet or Fuji photo printer. You have to have a lot going in to maintain any quality going out.

    As far as hardware features, controls and software are concerned ... IMO the priority should be "does it help increase IQ?"

    If the new multi-channel, bigger backs deliver visably superior IQ, and I have no reason yet to doubt they will, then a % of that universe out there will opt for it.
    Thanks Marc, for putting into a few sentences what I was trying to say in long winded posts...guess there's still lots room for improvement on my English...

    Indeed IQ is always 1st priority with workflow (whatever this means to different people) and features following, all at a reasonable cost...

    To Ben I would say that we run our own surveys, usually using ~2,000 working photographers and sometimes these surveys are very short and focused or sometimes using a very small group for a very specific purpose.

    We also have about 25 field people around the world, who work with more than 100 dealers and see and talk to customers, prospects, students, teachers, scientists etc on a daily base. and the information and requests are being fed through in a very organised way. We also have 3-4 professional photographers working for R&D who are all used to 35mm, MF and LF film and digital. Add to that trade shows, seminars, real shoots...it adds up. And of course there are public forums that are closely monitored by several of us on a regular base, as they provide a wealth of instant feedback and ideas.

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: surprised or not?

    Yair, I have no intention of being argumentative but have you found that the feedback from your impressively extensive network differs from that which we read on the forums... Not to beat a dead horse, but the Canon/Nikon example I've mentioned before indicates that the issues raised by Canon shooters on the forums (I've read) which were addressed by Nikon has had a real world impact on sales of those two brands. Perhaps this simply does not apply to the MF world...

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    Re: surprised or not?

    Yair - if I could have one wish it would be that the 4 back manufacturers got together and agreed on certain basic commonalities that would allow users greater cross platform choice.

    I know this is a pipe dream BUT
    Imagine if manufacturers agreed on standard back interfaces for example..how much hassle that would save everyone..how much unnecessary duplication could be removed. some extra dollars could be spent on other areas more important to back makers and photographers than physical connections.

    All these proprietary devices are artificial barriers to entry and put up switching costs which dont really make a bigger market.

    I think Hasselblad made a strategic blunder going for a closed system - and unfortunately we now have a 3 cornered camera and lens base of competition with some soon to go away cross platform band aid solutions.

    I preferred the old days when one could much more easilly mix and match their equipment with their film choices - if backs were more like film and less like part of a marketing trick - we would all be better off.

    I would love a 40 megapixel black and white back for example - imagine the tonal range with no RGB sharing you coudl get ...!! WOW I woudl love a B&W only back and a colour back which could be used on ANY camera body lens combo.

    I would love to see digital lens corrections and better raw processing as plug in modules working on DNG files that were the same as teh native RAW files from manufacturers..

    i dont want to learn different raw processing software for each back I own..

    I have a list of lenses that I would love to use which come from 4 different manufacturers..I would even buy 4 different camera bodies to use my favourite lenses with - why do I need to buy 3 different backs with 3 different adaptors? see what i mean? nad when 'forced' to choose -well one naturally goes with wher one has greatest investment in lenses...eg to stay with Leaf I would have had to sell out of HC lenses..AND I would have had to take a big hair cut on my Aptus 75 switch to Afi as well on top..

    I loved my Leaf back - more even than my H3D11-39 - but now way will I ever allow myself to be forced into an upgrade like Leaf was trying to make me do as well as sell all this great glass I had paid a lot of money for - sorry but I think these closed systems force peoel to make sub-optimal decisions, because that is all they can do. tehy also limit the total market size potential.

    the list is long..-

    cheers and thanks for your input.
    Pete
    Last edited by PeterA; 1st August 2008 at 06:46.

  4. #54
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    Re: surprised or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Yair - if I could have one wish it would be that the 4 back manufacturers got together and agreed on certain basic commonalities that would allow users greater cross platform choice.

    I know this is a pipe dream BUT
    Imagine if manufacturers agreed on standard back interfaces for example..how much hassle that would save everyone..how much unnecessary duplication could be removed. some extra dollars could be spent on other areas more important to back makers and photographers than physical connections.

    All these proprietary devices are artificial barriers to entry and put up switching costs which dont really make a bigger market.

    I think Hasselblad made a strategic blunder going for a closed system - and unfortunately we now have a 3 cornered camera and lens base of competition with some soon to go away cross platform band aid solutions.

    I preferred the old days when one could much more easilly mix and match their equipment with their film choices - if backs were more like film and less like part of a marketing trick - we would all be better off.

    I would love a 40 megapixel black and white back for example - imagine the tonal range with no RGB sharing you coudl get ...!! WOW I woudl love a B&W only back and a colour back which could be used on ANY camera body lens combo.

    I would love to see digital lens corrections and better raw processing as plug in modules working on DNG files that were the same as teh native RAW files from manufacturers..

    i dont want to learn different raw processing software for each back I own..

    I have a list of lenses that I would love to use which come from 4 different manufacturers..I would even buy 4 different camera bodies to use my favourite lenses with - why do I need to buy 3 different backs with 3 different adaptors? see what i mean? nad when 'forced' to choose -well one naturally goes with wher one has greatest investment in lenses...eg to stay with Leaf I would have had to sell out of HC lenses..AND I would have had to take a big hair cut on my Aptus 75 switch to Afi as well on top..

    I loved my Leaf back - more even than my H3D11-39 - but now way will I ever allow myself to be forced into an upgrade like Leaf was trying to make me do as well as sell all this great glass I had paid a lot of money for - sorry but I think these closed systems force peoel to make sub-optimal decisions, because that is all they can do. tehy also limit the total market size potential.

    the list is long..-

    cheers and thanks for your input.
    Pete
    As far as I can tell, Hasselblad and Sinar still offer the option of a digital back that can be used on any camera platform. Yes, adapters have to be employed, but that's because each camera maker uses different mount configurations and e-connections ... so it really isn't the back maker's fault.

    Hasselblad actually tried to use in-camera DNG with the initial H2D in an effort to unify capture format ... that flopped because it slowed down the capture rate and caused more issues than it solved as the meg rate increased to 39. Might be more possible now, but it wasn't then. That had potential to unify the software issue. My only current major issue with Phocus is that the Phocus corrections can't migrate to a DNG conversion like they do for a Tiff conversion.

    I too was bitterly disappointed when my 30K Aptus 75s wasn't able to be used on the AFi ... and the AFi conversion meant a scalding bath on my current back, a new camera/back, plus all new AF lenses ... so a basic kit with 3 AFD lenses and the "haircut" on the 75s added up to over 60K ... to end up with the SAME back I already owned. Hard to justify that one no matter how you "cook the books."

    IF Hasselblad would just make a focal plane H camera body ... I COULD use all my favorite lenses in one system ... all the 200, 500, and HC series lenses in one system.

    If that H focal plane camera were open to other backs that would be even better. But that will happen when Dante's Hell freezes over.

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    Re: surprised or not?

    Seems like more than a few of us would still be with Leaf if they had a decent upgrade program for us former Aptus users.

    Pete,
    The desire to use your favorite lenses from different manufacturers is one of the main reasons I went with Sinar. I'm shooting the Hy6 and Contax 645 on the same back and bought the Hassy adapter so I could use it on a 200 series camera with the F lenses. Unfortunately, that combo didn't work out well but I still get to use lenses like the Hassy 110 f/2 FE and the Super Achromats on the Contax kit via adapter, albeit in stop down mode.

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    Re: surprised or not?

    Marc, I share your pain as you well know..

    David - as I recall one of my first posts on this site was my testing of an early version of the Hy6 - bacause the Afi hadnt been released - yet. The test made some passing remarks regarding my surprise at the differene between look and feel of the body as well as soem concern re the example of the 80 Schneider it came with.

    My sole reason for buying into Leaf was the promised Afi body. The positive experience was hwo well the back worked on my Hasselblad - but the real revelation came with my Alpa + Schneider lenses.

    So I was happy to switch from Hasselblad and three lenses to Leaf Afi and start again. But then I found out that my Back was not suitable and like Marc - changeover costs would have been like - RIDICULOUSLY UNFAIR.

    Like you I thought a switch to Sinar was something I could consider - seriously - because of the multiple adaptor system. However, I found the software to be way out of my league in terms of what I was happy to put up with. the software really turned me off..I was possibly too harsh..anyway..

    Since then I have switched to a more complete Hasselblald system. and Hasselblad have completed their silly closed system strategy...

    When if Rollie release a body that will take a Phase One back or a Hasselblad back I would consider it. There are a few lenses in Rollie guise that i would love to own and use!

    (Anyway being a gear head means that eventually I will probably try the Hy6/7/8 ) I am sure you guys ill have figured out how to really use the software and make teh files sing - at which point Ihave no barrier to entry!

    for now though I am looking forward to choosing my view camera system - and I think I have found the perfect solution ( for me)..

    Cheers ( long winded response) sorry.
    Pete

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