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Thread: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

  1. #51
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Again, sorry for hijacking this thread, but now I've done so this seems the best place for follow up. I've just sent samples to my dealer, but what I'm seeing from my IQ180 has me puzzled and suspecting my back might have an issue. I look forward to downloading the tests from Doug when I get somewhere with a faster connection so I can compare their 35mmXL vs. mine.

    Anyway, here are 3 LCC files, all shot with the PhaseOne plate, shooting directly into a 6 foot softbox. Illumination was very even.

    35mmXL


    Here I rotated the back 180 degrees, which eliminates all other variables except the way the back is recording the data.



    Last, here is one with the Rodenstock, and while it is far more even than the other two, you can still see some density and very subtle color shifting. I've never seen this with this lens, and in fact quit shooting LCC's with my p65 because they always came out almost perfectly even.



    I didn't shoot the 47mmXL, but it shows similar problems, not as bad as the 35, but bad enough to be a problem. I've gotten away without shooting an LCC with the 47 before, but now I can't because of the discoloration in the middle.

    I assume this is still lens cast issues because of the proximity of the sensor to the lens, but somehow because of they way the sensor is made it seems to be more of a problem than with the p65. I can understand issues at the edges but such shifts in the middle are problematic. I'm just trying to find out if this is the way it is with the new back, or if my back might have a problem - any opinions? My dealer should be calling me shortly.
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Wayne, I was shooting with my P65+ and 43XL today and the zero position LCC looked very similar to yours above. The cast was not quite as strong but still very noticable and the same unusual pattern/stripes of magenta across the LCC and strange patchy brightness. The wierd thing is once shifted these casts appear as expected, a subtle graduation from light to dark as does the magenta casting. I just think this is how the Schneider glass works with these sensors. The LCC in C1, for me at least removes these casts 100%.

    I keep thinking of switching to the wide Rodenstocks but unless I'm reading the charts wrong the MTF curves of the 32 and 40 HR-W seem to suggest that while they are super sharp in the middle, the sharpness falls off quite a lot further from the centre, especially when shifted. The Schneiders MTF puts the centre not as good as the Rodies but stays sharper further to the edges so you can't win and there is no simple solution.

    Rodies less colour cast when shifted but not as sharp at the edges. SK more colour cast stopping large shifts but sharper at the edge when shifted.

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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Wayne, it seems to me - if you turn the back upside down and the magenta center area shifts, - it's the back that is problematic and not the lenses at all.

    Cheers, -Peter

  4. #54
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Wayne, it seems to me - if you turn the back upside down and the magenta center area shifts, - it's the back that is problematic and not the lenses at all.

    Cheers, -Peter
    Yes that was why I did it ... flipping the back and the problem remains the same in relation to the back eliminates everything in front of the sensor, including lens, LCC plate, light source, etc.
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Well since I already took over this thread, I thought it would be best to update my situation here to keep things together.

    After some additional testing and working with my dealer (thanks Optechs), I found my back required an LCC for pretty much every shot to correct a density and magenta color shift, even with my 55 and my 75-150 on my DF. Some files were sent to Denmark and after receiving them Phase is shipping me a replacement IQ180 as soon as they can.
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Thanks for the update it sounds like a similar problem I had with my first back even though it wasn't that bad. I'm just a little surprised what phase is shipping. If every back is hand tested before shipping I'm surprised that such things can be overlooked.

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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Well since I already took over this thread, I thought it would be best to update my situation here to keep things together.

    After some additional testing and working with my dealer (thanks Optechs), I found my back required an LCC for pretty much every shot to correct a density and magenta color shift, even with my 55 and my 75-150 on my DF.
    My god...... I was so alarmed reading this that I shot my 80mm LS to see if I got any discoloration. I'm even from edge to edge. I don't have a Phase mount yet for my Alpa..... The only lens I own is the 35XL and with all of the problems everyone seems to be having I decided to wait for the dust to settle for maybe a fix from Phase.

    Victor

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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    I have one question I would like to get some clarification:

    "The "Analyze Technical Wide" right now can throw off the global white balance, requiring you to hand-correct the image back to neutral. It's something I expect they'll improve in the next version. I'd file this under very annoying but ultimately not a major issue."

    What does it mean?

    A: If the shot was 5500 it could go to 5350 or 5600 after the LCC is applied or something like that ?

    OR

    B: The WB stays at 5500 after the LCC correction, but there is still a general color shift (WB shift) going on, but the WB setting stays the same ?


    Can anybody explain it in more detail, if it would be B, I would call it a major issue. I don't feel like hand correcting files for panoramic images. This would take forever and be very annoying.

  9. #59
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    My god...... I was so alarmed reading this that I shot my 80mm LS to see if I got any discoloration. I'm even from edge to edge.
    Victor
    my replacement back has been shipped, hoping it arrives tomorrow. I appreciate you testing this ... I was worried it was more widespread, just nobody has checked it out. It certainly isn't very apparent on normal images with the DF, so most wouldn't bother shooting an LCC. I would recommend to everyone with an IQ180 that doesn't have a technical camera to go ahead and make sure they aren't seeing this problem by shooting an LCC, I've heard of one other back with very similar symptoms.
    Last edited by Wayne Fox; 14th July 2011 at 13:34.
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Wayne,

    I have also received a 60XL which is just a sweet heart of a lens (at least this copy!). I haven't even bothered to shot an lcc with this lens as I haven't been able to detect color casting (although I haven't tried shifting yet).....been testing side to side focus accuracy. I am VERY pleasantly surprised.... Can't recommend this lens enough for anyone who needs this focal length. Good luck with the new back.

    Victor

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    New back arrived. Whatever is causing the magenta to green shift seems to be consistent .. new back performs nearly identically. Heres an LCC from the Schneider 55 on my DF. Shows the same magenta to green transition as the last back. I can white balance the bottom, leaving a greater magenta shift, or white balance the top leaving the bottom more green, or hit the middle.

    The small stripe in the middle is where I copied a small section and flipped it 180 degrees to better illustrate the color shift from top to bottom.

    Even shooting the 105-210 zoom shows some color difference from top to bottom, not much from side to side.

    Anyone else up for testing this? Just curious if this is just how it is since most images won't show any real problems, or if I'm just unlucky. I do know my 35xl on my alpa probably isn't usable ... that's just too much data modification to trust to an LCC, rather just shoot things on my DF with 28mm and crop the mush corners off.

    Last edited by Wayne Fox; 14th July 2011 at 14:03.
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    I really don't know. I don't have the answeres I would like but I can say the following. My second Iq180 is a LOT better than my first, however, it is still far behind my P65 when it comes to LCC on the DF camera. The P65 was clean, I mean CLEAN no color change whatsoever. My IQ180 isn't. It's certainly nor a problem for me, as it can't really be seen in normal images.

    I just would like to know WHY ? Especially as some claim they do not have this problem ???

    As I said before I am quite happy at the moment, but can't explain everything. I am also waiting for dougs explanation for the "color/WB shift with the LCC" When I asked Phase about it, they had no clue....

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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Wayne,

    Here is an LCC shot with my 60XL. Camera was not moved from original image position..... shutter speed opened 4 stops. I did not correct for any vignetting.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 15th July 2011 at 06:05.

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Wayne,

    Here is an LCC shot with my 60XL. Camera was not moved from original image position..... shutter speed opened 4 stops. I did not correct for any vignetting.

    Victor
    Certainly better than mine. Some slight density shifts throughout, but top and bottom densities and colors almost exactly the same ... what I would expect.

    How long have you had your back?
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Certainly better than mine. Some slight density shifts throughout, but top and bottom densities and colors almost exactly the same ... what I would expect.

    How long have you had your back?
    I've had my back for about 10 days. Actually its my second back..... a fluke of circumstances. I do hope you get this resolved. I just shot a non-shifted 35XL image and got a really/relatively clean LCC (I don't expect perfection with this lens). I have always shot my LCC files by aiming the camera AT the light source. I see that many, now, are not using that technique but instead keeping the camera in the same position as the shot image. I don't know if this has any effect on the LCC and final outcome..... I haven't run those tests. My latest tests have kept the camera in the same position as the shot image.

    Also, fwiw, if I were having this issue after two backs I would surely toss the software and start again from scratch..... just to eliminate that variable.

    What a hassle.....

    Victor

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I just shot a non-shifted 35XL image and got a really/relatively clean LCC (I don't expect perfection with this lens). I have always shot my LCC files by aiming the camera AT the light source.
    Victor
    How about posting a non-corrected version of that? I assume you think it was better than the one I posted?
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Wayne,

    Sorry for the delay. Here is the uncorrected file.

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post

    Also, fwiw, if I were having this issue after two backs I would surely toss the software and start again from scratch..... just to eliminate that variable.

    Victor
    I'm going back and forth between two different computers, and the LCC's are identical. Also viewing them on 3 different monitors with no real difference.

    Your 35xl is definitely better than mine and yes I would feel that's a decent LCC for the lens. The magenta bottom green top is similar, but I don't see the big color cast issue in the middle of the image that I see with my 35xl. Did you happen to try an LCC with a longer retro-focus lens to see if you get the green to magenta shift from top to bottom?
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I'm going back and forth between two different computers, and the LCC's are identical. Also viewing them on 3 different monitors with no real difference.

    Your 35xl is definitely better than mine and yes I would feel that's a decent LCC for the lens. The magenta bottom green top is similar, but I don't see the big color cast issue in the middle of the image that I see with my 35xl. Did you happen to try an LCC with a longer retro-focus lens to see if you get the green to magenta shift from top to bottom?
    My lens arsenal goes from 35XL to 60XL. Is the 60 a retro? I sure hope you get this resolved.......

    Victor

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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    As far as I know the Schneider 60 isn't a retro design.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Back for the Future? IQ180 arrives...

    I don't know if this is related, but I am testing my new Aptus II 12, which has same sensor, and I noticed a strong colour cast when changing to ISO 800. Here is same shot, only difference being ISO setting and shutter speed. Lens is Rollei 80mm:


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