Hasselblad has been sold

[yaya]

I am geting middle aged now and am finding....

Peter you're looking under the wrong light:toocool:

Middle aged men like us should be doing other things :OT::OT:

 

[fotografz]

There are a great number of Hasselblad platform supporters out there that are orphaned. They have been using the digital back of their choice on the H platform and have a wide range of lenses. They cannot purchase new bodies and are forced to look on the secondary market to find back ups and replacements.

I think a simple gesture by Hasselblad of 'opening up'/'unlocking' the H2F body would go a long way. I am not asking that they give all the functionality of their H4 platform, but just the basics that were available on the original H2. Besides the mount, all you need is a flashsync for the most basic functionality. The original line of lenses suite most just fine as well.

From my experience as PhaseOne reseller and I am sure others will agree we are still selling a number of systems on the H platform. The users who use it like it and don't want to change, but are being forced to and that is leaving a bad taste in their mount in regards to Hasselblad.

Let people chose where they put their backs and reward those who want a complete systems with features they cannot live without.

Lance

btw a digital X-pan would rock.

I understand all the history Lance. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Phase reverse engineer to allow use of the Phase backs on the H1 and H2? Some years ago I asked if Phase was going to do the same with the H2F (which also takes film backs so the mount would work) ... and was told that it probably wouldn't happen because it most likely wasn't worth it.

Perhaps the upcoming Phase One camera will make all this "open system" angst unnecessary? For those with H kits, it isn't like a HC lens system is worthless on the used market. IMO, if one wants to use a Phase One back the place to look for a systems platform is ... Phase One.

My take on this is that it's like when Canon went to the EOS system which produced howls of protest ... look where it took them. To me Hasselblad doesn't make cameras, that isn't their business like in the past. They make an integrated professional MFD system ... take it or leave it. Frankly, I'm surprised they have continued to support the V system other than to capitalize on V lovers reluctance to let go (and rightly so I suppose). As far as I know the other CF backs are now history, and all of the focus is on integrated systems.

With this sale, I now also understand why Hasselblad went from a history of punctual delivery to a slo-mo time warp. Hopefully, the on-time culture will return when the dust settles.

IMO, it is time to move on ... if this new owner doesn't help make that happen I'd be very surprised, maybe a bit sad ... but really I don't care ... someone will make what is needed and for those that need it, they will buy it no matter what name is on the gear.

Meanwhile use what you have in good health.

-Marc

 

[dougpeterson]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Phase reverse engineer to allow use of the Phase backs on the H1 and H2?

It's not really worth going into. But for the record that is wrong. In fact Phase was strongly involved in the actual development of the digital interface of the H platform as at the time Hassy was still 2-3 years from buying Imacon and cooperation between the companies at that point was quite high (see also: the rebranding of the Phase One Lightphase as the Phase One H5).

Much of this is documented in the public record due to the recently resolved lawsuit for those who are really interested.

But as you say, it really should matter less to the end-user what brand, or what the history of brands are, and rather the current and future of a product line.

See also: Michael Reichman's initial review of the H1.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[lance_schad]

I understand all the history Lance. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Phase reverse engineer to allow use of the Phase backs on the H1 and H2? Some years ago I asked if Phase was going to do the same with the H2F (which also takes film backs so the mount would work) ... and was told that it probably wouldn't happen because it most likely wasn't worth it.

Couple of things:

Phase One was very active in the development of the H platform as Doug mentioned. When the H1 was released @ Photokina in 2002 there were two digital backs available for it, the H101 (11mp) and the Kodak Pro-Back. Both companies assisted with the digital interface to my knowledge.

When Hasselblad discontinued the H2 , and replaced it with the H2F model they disabled some of the electronics to allow any third-party digital backs to be operated with it . Theoretically one should have been able to physically attach a back to it and then a sync cable to the flash sync (similar to using a back on a v-series or large format camera), but it was disabled.
Phase One had this working in the lab, but since it involved modifying the firmware on the H2F it was not 'legal' or allowed.

So the bottom line is Hasselblad locked others off the platform. Phase One was forced into finding a MF platform which was Mamiya, and here we are today. All behind us now.

As I mentioned previously there is demand for an unlocked new H2 cameras to be used with legacy HC glass and whatever digital back people want to use. How many in numbers I do not know, but if the new company is listening do it. In my opinion this would go along way in re-building the professional reputation in the brand and who knows maybe when the people are ready to upgrade their backs, this act of good faith will in return open their eye to a Hasselblad digital solution.

Anyway do not want to perpetuate any arguments here as to who is right or wrong. This is a great time for them to have a fresh start.

Lance

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Modular, yes! Open, why? So I can put an IQ back on a H camera? Why would Hassey want me to do that?

Because if they don't, they run the real risk of rental houses switching over to Phase cameras and backs. Phase backs rule the rental world, and many people would rather avoid using a Hasselblad rental back if they haven't used one before and are unfamiliar with the post-processing of the files and how to get the best results. So by opening up the H platform again, people can continue to rent what they are most comfortable with - Hasselblad cameras and Phase backs. Just my $0.02.

 

[Shashin]

What might be better is how the get prices down. Open system or not, but if it is half the price of the competition and better designed, that is going to be a better strategy. Think Pentax 645D vs. IQ1X0+clunky body.

Anyway, conversations like this are really just fun speculation. Hasselblad is going to figure it out. Business models have to change.

 

[ptomsu]

Because if they don't, they run the real risk of rental houses switching over to Phase cameras and backs. Phase backs rule the rental world, and many people would rather avoid using a Hasselblad rental back if they haven't used one before and are unfamiliar with the post-processing of the files and how to get the best results. So by opening up the H platform again, people can continue to rent what they are most comfortable with - Hasselblad cameras and Phase backs. Just my $0.02.

But unfortunately this business model will not work, given that 90-95% of the cost are in the back and the rest in the camera. So how should Hasselblad then make business - means get the necessary revenue to fund their back evolution? With that model Hasselblad will disappear for sure.

 

[fotografz]

It's not really worth going into. But for the record that is wrong. In fact Phase was strongly involved in the actual development of the digital interface of the H platform as at the time Hassy was still 2-3 years from buying Imacon and cooperation between the companies at that point was quite high (see also: the rebranding of the Phase One Lightphase as the Phase One H5).

Much of this is documented in the public record due to the recently resolved lawsuit for those who are really interested.

But as you say, it really should matter less to the end-user what brand, or what the history of brands are, and rather the current and future of a product line.

See also: Michael Reichman's initial review of the H1.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

Thanks Doug, no proof necessary, nor does it really matter what happened or when. That was then and this is now.

-Marc

 

[hcubell]

But unfortunately this business model will not work, given that 90-95% of the cost are in the back and the rest in the camera. So how should Hasselblad then make business - means get the necessary revenue to fund their back evolution? With that model Hasselblad will disappear for sure.

It's a great business model. Look how well it worked for Rollei and Sinar.

 

[rhsu]

It's a great business model. Look how well it worked for Rollei and Sinar.

....ouch!

 

[PeterA]

Peter you're looking under the wrong light:toocool:

Middle aged men like us should be doing other things :OT::OT:

yaya - this is a very 'sad' link - I make myself feel better by reminding myself the old saying - "you are as old as the woman you are with


Pete

 

[David K]

yaya - this is a very 'sad' link - I make myself feel better by reminding myself the old saying - "you are as old as the woman you are with


Pete

I've found that to be considerably more expensive than my photography

 

[Mike M]

Hasselblad has a seriously strong brand name.

If there is one company that could go toe-to-toe with Canon/Nikon then it would be Hasselblad. Think about it

Maybe they shouldn't try to compete with Leica, PHase etc...Maybe they should become the German competitor to Japanese Canon/Nikon. That might not mean a future in DMF...but rather a future in wherever canikon is going.

Well, these types of threads always turn into speculation...so the crazier the speculation the better imho

 

[fotografz]

Being neutral in this and yes i am no matter what anyone thinks. Is everyone needs to up there game PERIOD. If not everyone will take a bath on our existing systems. Just that simple. You can argue every point on earth between the systems, frankly pretty freaking boring if you ask me but if these do not get in the hands of end users everyone will lose. If we only have 2 real players left they need to give us better products and improvements to succeed. Each system has there strengths and also weaknesses. Both companies need to balance that out better than they have. Hassy as it is today needs more R&D and a infusion of cash to build new and better product ( we can say that about anyone frankly) but no one really knows what these investors WILL do or NOT do as well. Its a guessing game plain and simple right now until they start having movement on there plans and WE can see what they are going to do. No guarantees on anything here.

I think this is a very important set of comments.

IMO, the MFD arena will come under increasingly heavy pressure to innovate ... what I call the Playtex strategy to "Lift and Separate"

Many of us here on GetDpi are in rarified company ... use of a back on an Alpa and other similar types of niche applications will not sustain the MFD category as more players enter the fray.

On one end of the spectrum, Pentax has innovated a decent feature ladened 40 meg camera at an attractive price point. On the other end Leica has modestly chipped away with their innovative S2 that saps some high dollar sales. Frankly in both cases, even for many experienced MFD shooters, 40 meg has reached the practical limits that they would ever need.

However, the real challenge will come in the next few years as the 35mm DSLRs move into 30+ meg territory with newer sensor technologies and electronic innovations. There is also a very strong indication that Sony will unleash a 35 meg "studio" camera with a newly designed CCD sensor, no AA filter and a high speed sync shutter. We of the MFD faithful may not view these as suitable replacements for our MFD choices, but others do. In fact I think a lot of other photographers will do exactly that. While printing large landscapes, or certain commercial and institutional needs require the level of image performance we enjoy all the way up to 80 meg, or 200 meg M/S, the actual majority of photographic applications in the real world are swimming down-stream. So other types of innovations will become the criteria for choice once "practical" resolution reaches a tipping point. In the not to distant future, "Why MFD?" will increasingly become a question that is harder to answer.

My take on all this from years as a marketing and advertising executive is that the major MFD players and their users had better stop slashing and bickering at one another in their competitive zeal and wake up to smell their companies burning in the flames that the future holds for them. The world of MFD needs more innovation and most certainly needs a broader based and unified educational thrust beyond just "hawking" their wares in the marketplace ... a strategy that IMO could well competitively put all of them out of business with-in a decade or sooner.

-Marc

 

[ptomsu]

It's a great business model. Look how well it worked for Rollei and Sinar.

Exactly my point!

 

[Jack]

My take on all this from years as a marketing and advertising executive is that the major MFD players and their users had better stop slashing and bickering at one another in their competitive zeal and wake up to smell their companies burning in the flames that the future holds for them. The world of MFD needs more innovation and most certainly needs a broader based and unified educational thrust beyond just "hawking" their wares in the marketplace ... a strategy that IMO could well competitively put all of them out of business with-in a decade or sooner.

-Marc

Totally agree with your Marc. But then how do you reconcile this earlier comment, which seems to be contrary to your above unified statement:

Modular, yes! Open, why? So I can put an IQ back on a H camera? Why would Hassey want me to do that?

My .02 is you cannot have it both ways. Hassy hurt itself when it totally closed off its system to third-party backs, just like Sinar and Rollei did. The only difference is Hassy had enough installed base to survive it. I remember when they did it, and we all started saying, "It's the Sony Betamax debacle all over again!" Seems to be a marketing strategy that has proven itself to fail time and time again. Hopefully the new owners are brighter than the last set were and realize that by working together you can make the entire pie larger before you divvy it up, and thus end up with a bigger single piece than the entire pie was before you started. I know Phase and Leaf get this...

My .02 only,

 

[ajoyroy]

Hasselblad has a seriously strong brand name.

If there is one company that could go toe-to-toe with Canon/Nikon then it would be Hasselblad. Think about it

Maybe they shouldn't try to compete with Leica, PHase etc...Maybe they should become the German competitor to Japanese Canon/Nikon. That might not mean a future in DMF...but rather a future in wherever canikon is going.

Well, these types of threads always turn into speculation...so the crazier the speculation the better imho

The problem is that Japs are very good at mass productions, especially no frill jobs.

Here in India the Germans are trying to compete with Japs in automobile sector, but are failing miserably due to

- Excellent technology, but low reliability and high maintenance cost
- More than twice the price of comparable Japanese product.

So who buys the German Automobiles? Those who want the prestige and can afford the maintenance costs! Not the general consumer, nor the fleet operator, and that is where the money is. Getting a German Automobile conforms to the old Indian saying "any one can get an Elephant, but few can feed it".

I see quite a few similarity in the photography field. Europeans make the most sophisticated equipment which costs as much as a semi-professional Japanese DSLR to service, while the Japanese stuff requires service rarely, and then too costs a fraction of the European equipment. Hence no matter what Hasselblad does, in my opinion they should never try to compete with Japs, but stick to what they do best - top of the line equipment, and not low/middle end consumer stuff.

 

[ajoyroy]

My .02 is you cannot have it both ways. Hassy hurt itself when it totally closed off its system to third-party backs, just like Sinar and Rollei did. The only difference is Hassy had enough installed base to survive it. I remember when they did it, and we all started saying, "It's the Sony Betamax debacle all over again!" Seems to be a marketing strategy that has proven itself to fail time and time again. Hopefully the new owners are brighter than the last set were and realize that by working together you can make the entire pie larger before you divvy it up, and thus end up with a bigger single piece than the entire pie was before you started. I know Phase and Leaf get this...

My .02 only,

I also agree that all MFD players have to work together to get a bigger slice of the Whole Photography market.

I also think that Hasselblad should incorporate a focal plane shutter, and a slew of new lenses, just as it did in the 200 series, to compete with Mamiya in future, else once Schneider introduces more lenses and the Phase camera evolves to a decent product, there will be no reason to buy Hasselblad.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The problem is that Japs are very good at mass productions, especially no frill jobs.

Here in India the Germans are trying to compete with Japs in automobile sector, but are failing miserably due to

- Excellent technology, but low reliability and high maintenance cost
- More than twice the price of comparable Japanese product.

So who buys the German Automobiles? Those who want the prestige and can afford the maintenance costs! Not the general consumer, nor the fleet operator, and that is where the money is. Getting a German Automobile conforms to the old Indian saying "any one can get an Elephant, but few can feed it".

I see quite a few similarity in the photography field. Europeans make the most sophisticated equipment which costs as much as a semi-professional Japanese DSLR to service, while the Japanese stuff requires service rarely, and then too costs a fraction of the European equipment. Hence no matter what Hasselblad does, in my opinion they should never try to compete with Japs, but stick to what they do best - top of the line equipment, and not low/middle end consumer stuff.

Let's refrain from the word Japs. To many it is taken as a insult. Thanks Guy

We have a very wide audience here.

 

[fotografz]

Totally agree with your Marc. But then how do you reconcile this earlier comment, which seems to be contrary to your above unified statement:



My .02 is you cannot have it both ways. Hassy hurt itself when it totally closed off its system to third-party backs, just like Sinar and Rollei did. The only difference is Hassy had enough installed base to survive it. I remember when they did it, and we all started saying, "It's the Sony Betamax debacle all over again!" Seems to be a marketing strategy that has proven itself to fail time and time again. Hopefully the new owners are brighter than the last set were and realize that by working together you can make the entire pie larger before you divvy it up, and thus end up with a bigger single piece than the entire pie was before you started. I know Phase and Leaf get this...

My .02 only,

The unified statement was in reference to spreading the gospel of MFD without getting competitive about it, Jack. I don't think the companies should become one with the cosmos or anything like that.

I stand by the notion that had Hasselblad kept their camera open it would have been bad for their over-all business. Plus, Hassey has spent considerable resources on their camera itself ... lots of little stuff besides the more obvious innovations ... for what? So another company can sell backs for it?

The money and profits are in the digital backs not the cameras, or probably even in the lenses either ... unless you are Leica :ROTFL:

So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the gear part of the issue, and rather than exchanging debatable opinions that probably will never bear any eatable fruit, maybe it'd be interesting to discuss ideas that forward the MFD category.

For example, wouldn't it be interesting if there was something like a MFD Institute equally funded by all the players that promoted the Art and advantages of MFD photography? Sort of a Get Dpi on steroids with a far wider ranging display of results, styles and photographers. Less about brands and more about various ways MFD impacts the world of photography. A highly diversified resource for those interested without wading through all the brand debates and minutia. Just a thought.

-Marc