Hasselblad has been sold

[David K]

Just read an article about Audi's new $300+k sports car and how they are attempting to capture the market that's been dominated by BMW and Mercedes. The interesting part, and the one that I think relates to MFD, is that they aren't doing it because they expect to make a lot of money selling those super high priced vehicles. They do it because it adds to the prestige of the lineup and allows them to make greater markups on their more normally priced vehicles. If I'm not mistaken, this is also what Leica has done with their rebadged P&S cameras and is what I would do if I were the new owner of Hassy.

 

[Jack]

maybe it'd be interesting to discuss ideas that forward the MFD category.

For example, wouldn't it be interesting if there was something like a MFD Institute equally funded by all the players that promoted the Art and advantages of MFD photography? Sort of a Get Dpi on steroids with a far wider ranging display of results, styles and photographers.

No argument here! One of the main reasons culture blossomed so heartily during the renaissance was the patronage to the arts. We do not have that in any substantive way today, which is sad. Would be great to get some VC money into the art market, but of course there is no tangible ROI for them, just a feel good for humanity which is a tough sale to the sharks.

PS: I don't think we disagree on the "gear" at all Marc. We have our preferences and we each have our specific reasons for them, and we both have been known to totally abandon one system when another came along that we felt met our needs better than the previous system. In fact, when been each other's best customers for used gear a time or two :ROTFL:. Moreover, I think either of us could pick up each other's bags and go get our respective jobs done on time. We would probably be cursing under our breath a bit at having to modify our work methods, but the reality is I do not think the end result would be significantly impaired either way. However I do think we disagree on what makes a sound business strategy in a very small, elite niche market.

 

[KeithL]

However I do think we disagree on what makes a sound business strategy in a very small, elite niche market.

I don't believe there is a sound business strategy in the very small, elite niche market that is MFD. I'd worry about any manufacturer that believed there was.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just read an article about Audi's new $300+k sports car and how they are attempting to capture the market that's been dominated by BMW and Mercedes. The interesting part, and the one that I think relates to MFD, is that they aren't doing it because they expect to make a lot of money selling those super high priced vehicles. They do it because it adds to the prestige of the lineup and allows them to make greater markups on their more normally priced vehicles. If I'm not mistaken, this is also what Leica has done with their rebadged P&S cameras and is what I would do if I were the new owner of Hassy.

This is partly what Phase is doing is having a 3 tier system approach . They do that by branding Mamiya , Leaf and finally Phase as there top tier product. If you look at the price structuring along with the technology on each brand everything has a slow build up. Just look at a Aptus 12 vs the IQ 180. Now this gives buyers many choices with the same shared system of parts. Hassy does not really have this kind of structure as it is only branded by the Hassy name. Sure they have the speciality Ferrari body but a different business model all together. Good points and bad points to each obviously but say a HD4-50 cannot be had in a different naming convention for a lower price. Phase on the other hand has 3 ways to get a IQ140 sensor actually 4.

Now this is something for Hassy to look at as well and change and give the buyer maybe a 2 choice in a HD4-50 sensor. Add another naming convention that would equal the likes of Leaf/Mamiya with slightly less technology or different technology.

BTW no knocks on brands here it is just the way Phase is now structured . To me it is a smart idea. Would it work for Hassy in such a scenario, maybe.

 

[carstenw]

FWIW I agree with Marc that there is no future for Hasselblad in making bodies for Phase One backs, which is exactly what most people would do if it were possible. However, changing strategy with a truck-load of customers in that boat already was a nasty move, and one which probably still has trust repercussions. I guess one day everyone will have forgotten about that, but it might take a while longer.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

FWIW I agree with Marc that there is no future for Hasselblad in making bodies for Phase One backs, which is exactly what most people would do if it were possible. However, changing strategy with a truck-load of customers in that boat already was a nasty move, and one which probably still has trust repercussions. I guess one day everyone will have forgotten about that, but it might take a while longer.

Problem is what does that tell ya when Phase comes out with there new body. Two sides to a coin here. Seriously as i said before everyone needs to up there game or they will be eating dust.

 

[carstenw]

Agreed, the bodies are all not really up to competing with the top 135 format cameras, and things need to improve there, at least with weather sealing and multiple focus sensors or True Focus, and so on.

About the new Phase body, let's see when it comes out

 

[Guy Mancuso]

If anything like the tech of the IQ than I'm all in. Agree though let's see what they got.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

But unfortunately this business model will not work, given that 90-95% of the cost are in the back and the rest in the camera.

You didn't mention lenses and accessories, which are worth more than the camera bodies. Besides that, the price has no bearing whatsoever on profitability. If Hasselblad sells their cameras at a profit, they should be fine. Finally, I would not advocate that Hasselblad stops making backs. Far from it - they should open their platform and start producing such good digital backs that people choose them voluntarily and not because a closed platform forces them to.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

.Maybe they should become the German competitor to Japanese Canon/Nikon. That might not mean a future in DMF...but rather a future in wherever canikon is going.

Well, these types of threads always turn into speculation...so the crazier the speculation the better imho

That doesn't sound crazy at all, quite the opposite. Perhaps we'll see integrated cameras from Hasselblad similar to the Pentax 645D, pitched at a price to take on Canikon and offering an extra level of quality with a much coveted brand name.

 

[yossarians22]

Maybe they should become the German competitor to Japanese Canon/Nikon.

Swedish + Japanese(Fuji) = German?

HD4-50 cannot be had in a different naming convention for a lower price

cfv-50

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Swedish + Japanese(Fuji) = German?

The new owner is based in Germany.

 

[PeterA]

Private Equity features quite prominently in the art market.

Cameras aren't art though - unless they are made by Leica or Alpa - and these companies are owned by venture capitalists - the original venture capitalists- the family company. I think Arca Swiss is in the same category.

Bespoke anything costs lot more than non bespoke an off the rack suit costs a lot less than one made by your tailor for example..

I see MF digi back business as a little market delivering high megapixel count - that is it. These high megapixel counts don't produce art or better photographs or more interesting photographs or anything else of universal value.

Just like fast cars ultimately get you from A to B - it is the individuals preferences for various attributes that allows for a range of margin from utilitarian to bespoke. The price points define the size of the market.

There is nothing 'special' about these expensive cameras except in the eyes of the buyer. So we have digital elephant cameras with 80 megapixels which will be replaced by the new elephants delivering 100 or 200 or 5000 megapixels ...in good time maybe..

however for the 2X3 foot print - the megapixel race is over - well and truly over @ 40 megaixels or lower - much lower.

none of this has anything to do with 'art'.

These discussions are geek discussions concerning the future viability of geek stuff - and there is nothing wrong that - for geeks.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Agreed. I'm a shooter. End of story . Lol

 

[fotografz]

This is partly what Phase is doing is having a 3 tier system approach . They do that by branding Mamiya , Leaf and finally Phase as there top tier product. If you look at the price structuring along with the technology on each brand everything has a slow build up. Just look at a Aptus 12 vs the IQ 180. Now this gives buyers many choices with the same shared system of parts. Hassy does not really have this kind of structure as it is only branded by the Hassy name. Sure they have the speciality Ferrari body but a different business model all together. Good points and bad points to each obviously but say a HD4-50 cannot be had in a different naming convention for a lower price. Phase on the other hand has 3 ways to get a IQ140 sensor actually 4.

Now this is something for Hassy to look at as well and change and give the buyer maybe a 2 choice in a HD4-50 sensor. Add another naming convention that would equal the likes of Leaf/Mamiya with slightly less technology or different technology.

BTW no knocks on brands here it is just the way Phase is now structured . To me it is a smart idea. Would it work for Hassy in such a scenario, maybe.

Actually, there are three 50 meg H backs to select from ... H4D/50, H4D/50MS and the H4D/200MS (which is a different 50MS module) ... each one a completely different price point. Keeping in mind, not everyone shoots landscapes, and the MS cameras are pretty well known in commercial circles.

Currently, Hasselblad offers the H4D system in 31, 40, 50, 50/MS, 60, and 200MS, and the CFV in 39 and 50 meg versions.

The red Hasselblad isn't a version of anything nor is the stainless steel model ... those are just different cosmetic finishes, something Hasselblad has done for decades, so nothing new there (I once had a fun yellow 501CM) However, I think it is a huge waste of time and effort doing stuff like that ,,, more importantly it erodes the Brand's core positioning as a serious photographic tool ... something that also irritates me about Leica.

As a user, I'd rather see them stick with their single Brand name convention and look to dual shutter camera that uses the entire system of existing lenses we users already have ... either as leaf shutter or focal plane shutter. That seems to be a no-brainer move which I've been harping about forever.

AND, BTW ... allow current users to send their current back in to be fitted and calibrated to the new body without having to buy an entire new camera & DB. To me, that is where Phase kills Hasselblad ... If Hassey came out with a H5D and I wanted the camera why should I have to lose my shirt just to get the new camera? My current 60 back is all I need or want to pay for right now, but if I could use it on a dual shutter camera I'd like that option.

IMO, if they could manage to make a digital XPan .... they wouldn't be able to make enough of them.

-Marc

 

[David Schneider]

I see MF digi back business as a little market delivering high megapixel count - that is it. These high megapixel counts don't produce art or better photographs or more interesting photographs or anything else of universal value.

Just like fast cars ultimately get you from A to B - it is the individuals preferences for various attributes that allows for a range of margin from utilitarian to bespoke. The price points define the size of the market.

There is nothing 'special' about these expensive cameras except in the eyes of the buyer. So we have digital elephant cameras with 80 megapixels which will be replaced by the new elephants delivering 100 or 200 or 5000 megapixels ...in good time maybe..

As a professional, I went 100% digital in 1998 or 1999. I can assure you increases in the capabilities of succeeding generations of cameras have improved my product, allowed me to create new products and better meet the needs of my clients, and increased my studio business.

I can also tell you adding medium format, in my case a Hasselblad, has given me new capabilities and improved my level of craftsmanship and increased that small percentage of my work that might be considered "art."

I do believe the swordsman is more important than the sword. But if there are two swordsman, my money is on the one with the Samuri sword, not on the guy with the Swiss army knife or hunting knife.

 

[PeterA]

I am almost there regarding forking out the cashola required to buy the big boy Imacon scanner....not as convenient as a digi version off my favourite camera - but still..there is just that something about film - even scanned film

 

[goesbang]

I wish Hasselblad and their new owners all the best! Perhaps this will help them bring out some really exciting new products - I just hope it's not a brand-leaching exercise with the release of Hasselblad point-and-shoot cameras, etc.

You are headed in the right direction with this thought, but have perhaps taken it too far...

"we plan to develop Hasselblad cameras to appeal to a wider circle of ambitious photographers“

How does one read this? One possible way is that the purchase was really for the brand equity in the name, not the camera lineup per se. To me, this reads like they have conceded the pro market to Phase/Leaf and will concentrate on the prosumer MF market and perhaps even the DSLR sector. They have form here - remember the Xpan? Perhaps they also have a crosshair on the little red circle .Unless the investors are prepared to invest a truckload of cash to catch up (someone said leapfrog earlier?!!) to the IQ technology, for which the global market is tiny, it makes more sense to capitalise on the brand equity in the name to attack the larger consumer/prosumer sector, where the development costs are likely lower and the potential returns larger.
I guess we'll all know soon enough.......

 

[carstenw]

You are headed in the right direction with this thought, but have perhaps taken it too far...

[...]

To me, this reads like they have conceded the pro market to Phase/Leaf and will concentrate on the prosumer MF market and perhaps even the DSLR sector. They have form here - remember the Xpan?

You may be headed in the right direction with this thought, but have perhaps taken it too far...



There is absolutely no way that Hasselblad will take on Nikon and Canon in the DSLR market, who are just so far ahead, and have much cheaper manufacturing capability available, huge lens lineups, existing pro programs, and on and on and on, that they are all but unreachable. Even companies like Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic and so on cannot get there, although they have tried. Leica abandoned the boat completely, although they had a niche going.

I do think that it sounds like Hasselblad will try to broaden their scope a bit. I don't know how viable it would be to reawaken the X-Pan digitally, but I could imagine that Hasselblad might introduce some kind of lower-end MFD system, a-la Pentax 645D, with some kind of path up to the H4D. I don't know exactly what form that might take, perhaps some cheaper lenses and a cheaper body with a less than 100% prism and a lower resolution back, perhaps 22MP or 30MP, but all compatible with the big system?

 

[PeterA]

Sheesh a couple of years ago a 30-40 megapixel camera was the top end - funny reading how professional photographers need the latest and greatest elephant gun to shoot rabbits and pigeons with !!!:loco: