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Thread: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

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    Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    My personal apologies for taking so long to post this. Things have been extremely busy around Capture Integration the last two months.
    ----------------

    Capture Integration is pleased to provide the community with downloadable files taken with the IQ180 with the following tech-camera lenses:
    - Schneider 28mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 35mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 43mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 60mm Digitar XL
    - Rodenstock 70mm HR

    The tests are presented as 6-image stitches of around 280mp showing the entire possible range of movement for a Cambo Wide RS. Superimposed on the images is a grid showing the size of a single frame and the increments of 10mm of rise/fall/shift. This will allow viewers to evaluate what range of movements they will be happy with for each lens.

    Questions, comments, violent dissent, personal evaluations, and completely off-topic poetic meanderings all strongly encouraged.

    Link: Phase One and Schneider Lens Tests

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    For anyone new to tech cameras. "Stitching" with a tech camera is different than the pan-and-stitch technique most dSLR users are used to. On a tech camera the lens is stationary and you use move the digital back to capture different parts of the continuous image circle.

    This means you don't have to geometrically distort the images together (so pixels aren't being stretched/compressed), you don't have to crop any of the resulting image.

    It also greatly increases the effective sensor size which changes how wide any given focal length is, and greatly increases the resolution of the final image.

    By stitching a few IQ180 frames you can easily capture 200-400 megapixel images. Getting similar detail from a dSLR would take dozens of overlapping frames and many hours in post-processing software.

    We'll be teaching, and using, this technique (from capture to final image) at our NE Landscape (Peak Color) in October.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    and greatly increases the resolution of the final image.
    Depending on the projection of the pan-stitch image, you may actually be getting more out of that method. There is actually no clear cut winner here as there are too many variables. At least with pan/stitch, I can use the center of my lens rather than the extremes of the image circle where resolution decreases.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Depending on the projection of the pan-stitch image, you may actually be getting more out of that method. There is actually no clear cut winner here as there are too many variables. At least with pan/stitch, I can use the center of my lens rather than the extremes of the image circle where resolution decreases.
    Agreed. But you probably underestimate the number of lens/back combos that allow generous stitching. As an example download the 60XL example file with the IQ180 and examine the area outside of the image circle.

    I completely agree that each lens has an area outside of it's center where loss of sharpness is meaningful. But for many lens/back combos and many stitches you will not enter unsharp areas of the lens circle. This test is, in fact, exactly the sort of test you should run with your lens to decide how far you can go with a flat-stitch with your particular lens/back.

    Basically if you can stay inside the great part of your image circle flat-stitching is a clear winner (workflow/quality/ability-to-actually-compose). If the end-goal would require you to leave the great part of your image circle pan-and-stitch becomes the clear winner.

    And of course for anything like 180 degrees or wider you can only do pan-and-stitch.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    You lose me in the comparison of the methods. There are certainly benefits to moving the back in the image circle, but your conclusion that it is better just does not muster. There is no level playing field here. Stitch/pan is not limited to the number of frames regardless of the angle of view. As a photographer, I will do what I need to do.

    BTW, I can compose in a stitch/pan just as well as moving a ground glass around. I need a nodal point to stitch/pan, so a bit more there. Work flow for both are simple. Your argument on quality is not proven.

    Look, I don't want to get into an argument. I just wish you stopped at the benefits of working in the image circle. The comparison cannot be made to stitch/pan as giving less quality as there simply too many variables.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post

    Capture Integration is pleased to provide the community with downloadable files taken with the IQ180 with the following tech-camera lenses:
    - Schneider 28mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 35mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 43mm Digitar XL
    - Schneider 60mm Digitar XL
    - Rodenstock 70mm HR
    [/SIZE]
    wow... that's brilliant... good work!

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You lose me in the comparison of the methods. There are certainly benefits to moving the back in the image circle, but your conclusion that it is better just does not muster. There is no level playing field here. Stitch/pan is not limited to the number of frames regardless of the angle of view. As a photographer, I will do what I need to do.

    BTW, I can compose in a stitch/pan just as well as moving a ground glass around. I need a nodal point to stitch/pan, so a bit more there. Work flow for both are simple. Your argument on quality is not proven.

    Look, I don't want to get into an argument. I just wish you stopped at the benefits of working in the image circle. The comparison cannot be made to stitch/pan as giving less quality as there simply too many variables.
    I all depends. There are moments when flat stitching is much better than any type of panoramic movment. If you have details in the foreground and use a wide lens it works much better and you don't have the problem of mismatching details.

    However if I do something like a 3:1 or longer panoramic I use a normal stitching with lens movements, its just much faster.

    I thionk it is also important to point out that it can be a hassle trying to do flat stitching on sunrise or sunset pictures, because you should "always" shoot a LCC right after.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    flat stitching with LCC is not as simply as single shot LCC application - esp what Christopher has just mentioned - due to lumination. I have worked with P45+ via C1 and 75VL via Sinar Capture and both needs personal skills to make it work nicely - as Guy mentioned somewhere about LCC stitching application.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Hi Doug

    thanks for posting these samples. I took a deep look inside, with Photoshop CS5 and channels in BW at 200 % enlargement.
    I have to say I was expecting this, but I´m astonished about the degree of degradation. LCC does a good job on the visual file but if you look at the channels (especially the blue one) I would say that if someone needs a high quality file you can forget the 28mm and 35mm lenses for movements. The noise starts to get apparently more even inside the original frame border of the 28mm and only some mm outside of the frame of the 35mm lens.
    The effect is less apparent in the highlights and midtones, but (as to be expected) the dark tones are suffering mostly.
    The 43mm is “OK” but still there are not much movements (maybe 10mm?) before the noise hits.
    The 60mm is nice you are right, it is a question of the lightbeam hitting the chip, the angle is essential. This is doing more harm than any Retrofocus can ever do.
    I guess that at the 28mm effective resolution will loose up to 30% maybe more, it starts even inside the unmoved frame , the 35mm is ok within the unmoved frame but starts to loose the same amount of resolution only some mm more outside.
    This can be improved with a Centerfilter (physically ! not Electronically - again Schneider errs completely!).

    I would be very curious how the Rodenstock23+ 32 would look like, I guess somewhere between the 35mm and 43mm - respectively 47-60 (tending upwards) which is also proofing it´s got nothing to do with absolute sharpness but with the lens to chip distance MOSTLY !

    Now what does this tell about Superwideangles on the new 80MPix chips ?
    I guess there is only one way to get usable pictures- the answer is retrofocus (see Rodenstock...;-) and - with all respect - for sure our HCam-B1.
    We simply don´t have any Color cast, even with 17mm.
    And with 24mm we have more movements than Schneider with 35mm. And compared to Rodenstock the Canon 24mm costs 2000 € - the 23mm Rodenstock costs over 6000 € !

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Doug
    I would be very curious how the Rodenstock23+ 32 would look like, I guess somewhere between the 35mm and 43mm - respectively 47-60 (tending upwards) which is also proofing it´s got nothing to do with absolute sharpness but with the lens to chip distance MOSTLY !
    Stefan
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27729

    there you can get a good impression of the difference between the 28 and 32.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Christopher

    I have seen this and also posted in that thread, what I meant was a similar circular stitch and LCC applied as well to get a visual correct file.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Doug,

    Thanks for posting these examples: I will have a really good dig around in them. As you know, I have the 35XL and saw, as a result of your kindness, some of your files relating to that lens about a week ago before I took delivery of my IQ 180. This sort of testing is absolutely invaluable to the user community and I thank you for all the hard work that goes into it. It makes hard and complex decisions so much easier for people to make in a world where various combinations of very high-end gear are relatively rare and where user feedback and testing is therefore pretty hard to come by.

    It would be really interesting if you have time to hear your own opinions about what kit you'd recommend for use with the 180 for tech camera use?

    Best
    Tim

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Doug,

    thanks a lot for these tests!

    There is something going on in the Schneider 43mm files which I don't understand: What is the cause of this vertical 'color boundary' shown in the attached file which is a crop from your stitched image? It's a problem I have noticed myself when shifting the 43 but so far I haven't had time for proper testing, i.e., eliminating variables.

    The lens is in a fixed position, you move the sensor within the image circle - but it seems that the image projected onto the center of the image circle is rendered differently if this rendering takes place somewhere close to the edge of the sensor or if it takes place in the center of the sensor. From a technical point of view, this doesn't make sense to me. I don't know if flare plays a role in this as the pattern of reflections caused by the sensor glass is definitely different when the sensor is shifted, and this could result in a seemingly different impression.

    Or is there a trivial explanation for this line in the crop? Is it a C1 problem?

    Chris

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I don't the camera used and only looked briefly at the images, but is it body vignetting?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Some kind of stitching artifact?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I've found with my 43XL that the LCC Tech Camera correction in C1 sometimes shifts the white balance a bit between shots, especially when it does more extreme corrections. The above could be the result of that?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    The sensor has multiple read-out points. Under normal situations the back calibrates the reading of those read-out points so perfectly that it's not visible even under a lot of post-processing punishment. This is true of most cameras I have tested (including dSLRs like Canon) and some special tests (completely impractical to photographic applications) can show this in even in very "straight" shots.

    In this case the captures that take place at the outside of the image circles of lenses which Phase One does not recommend (but which I think the tests show are usable provided you understand the limitations of movement that are implied) seem to present a problem with that calibration resulting in these artifacts. I could not explain the engineering reasons beyond the fact they're likely related to the same phenomenon as the LCC.

    Bottom line the color purity, sharpness, light-falloff, and any such artifacts must be considered in evaluating how much movement you're comfortable with for this combination of back/lens, and in making any decisions about which lenses you wish to couple with this back.

    I would expect some further modest improvements to the LCC algorithms, just as we have seen some significant improvements already in the addition of the "Wide Angle Tech Lens" version of the algorithm vs. the standard algorithm. This might expand the usable image circle several more mm - only time will tell and if you're purchasing I'd do so based on what is possible today (illustrated by this test and your own testing) and depending on your needs swap out the wider of the Schneider XL's for Rodenstocks (or possibly a Hartblei solution - we're arranging to test one ASAP) where possible, practical, and desired.

    The IQ180 is absolutely fantastic - I'm obviously a biased source of info on the topic, but hopefully have built up creditability here by openly stating when I think things are not great. However, all tools have their advantages and disadvantages and large movements with the 28XL/35XL/43XL is not one of the IQ180's advantages. Each of those lenses is great lenses for this back, but each within a range of movements. A range you can determine pretty easily (with your own criterium/needs) based on this test. That's the whole point of the test :-).

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Bottom line the color purity, sharpness, light-falloff, and any such artifacts must be considered in evaluating how much movement you're comfortable with for this combination of back/lens, and in making any decisions about which lenses you wish to couple with this back.

    [...] However, all tools have their advantages and disadvantages and large movements with the 28XL/35XL/43XL is not one of the IQ180's advantages.
    Just for the record: I have noticed this color problem when shifting with the 43mm on a P40+. So it's not a problem which is characteristic of the IQ180.

    Chris

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Hi Doug

    thx for the test. The result is very interesting.
    Especially that the color cast is neither round symmetric to the center nor it shows horizontally and vertically the same symmetry.
    This would mean the square pixel of the iQ180 back behave different towards out of orthogonal angle arriving light in horizontal or vertical direction.
    Any explanation for this?

    Another request: Could you please do the same test with the iQ160 to see how different (hopefully better) the back performs with the same Schneider lenses and could you do the same test with the iQ160 and iQ180 back with the Rodenstock 28, 32 and 40 mm lenses in order to have a complete comparison how the two backs work with the two lens families.

    And ... btw ... Stefan Steib could add the same shift + stich tests with the 60 and 80 MP backs on the Hartblei cam with the Canon TSE 17 and 24 mm and the Hartblei Zeiss 40 mm lenses:-)

    Then we would have a substantial overview of wide angle shift lens + back performances.

    Thanks for your efforts,
    Christoph

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I'll add that I shoot with the Cambo wide RS and both the new 28mm Super Digitar and 60mm apo. I use the Leaf Aptus II 10 - as most of you will know 56mp - is a similar Dalsa sensor to the Phase IQ 160 that Guy has. I have had great results. I use the 28mm for about 50% of my architecture work and it works nicely with the LCC on capture one software. And yes, use shifts and rise with it. I have had no issues with my 60mb back so hopefully, there are still options for many shooters and we will avoid "the sky is falling threads." I can get away with 10-11mm of shift without losing color saturation after fixing with LCC. Any more than this like up to the 17mm limit, and the edge of the frame loses most of your color saturation and looks somewhat monochromatic. Green leaves look brown. Blue sky looks like you desaturated 30 points. Yellow painted interiors go to neutral beiges. So hopefully you can know this ahead of time and compose your images to work with this if you need more movements. I find the sharpness of the lens like going from canon wide's to Leica M wide glass. It is like the same night and day from my zeiss 35mm lens on the contax to the schneider 28mm super Digitar. And the zeiss 35 is outstanding. So there you go. The 60mm is stellar no matter what you do to it.

    I won't be shifting the 28mm to the extremes unless I am looking for a black and white image. Most of my work with the 28 falls in the zero to 10mm of rise anyway where it excels nicely (with my back.).

    Hopefully in the next few weeks, guy and I can do an abbreviated but similar test and involve Doug with the 28mm on the phase iq160 to see if it has similar results to what I am seeing on my Leaf.

    Robb Williamson

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I'll add that I shoot with the Cambo wide RS and both the new 28mm Super Digitar and 60mm apo. I use the Leaf Aptus II 10 - as most of you will know 56mp - is a similar Dalsa sensor to the Phase IQ 160 that Guy has. I have had great results. I use the 28mm for about 50% of my architecture work and it works nicely with the LCC on capture one software. And yes, use shifts and rise with it. I have had no issues with my 60mb back so hopefully, there are still options for many shooters and we will avoid "the sky is falling threads." I can get away with 10-11mm of shift without losing color saturation after fixing with LCC. Any more than this like up to the 17mm limit, and the edge of the frame loses most of your color saturation and looks somewhat monochromatic. Green leaves look brown. Blue sky looks like you desaturated 30 points. Yellow painted interiors go to neutral beiges. So hopefully you can know this ahead of time and compose your images to work with this if you need more movements. I find the sharpness of the lens like going from canon wide's to Leica M wide glass. It is like the same night and day from my zeiss 35mm lens on the contax to the schneider 28mm super Digitar. And the zeiss 35 is outstanding. So there you go. The 60mm is stellar no matter what you do to it.

    I won't be shifting the 28mm to the extremes unless I am looking for a black and white image. Most of my work with the 28 falls in the zero to 10mm of rise anyway where it excels nicely (with my back.).

    Hopefully in the next few weeks, guy and I can do an abbreviated but similar test and involve Doug with the 28mm on the phase iq160 to see if it has similar results to what I am seeing on my Leaf.

    Robb Williamson

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Hi Christoph

    "And ... btw ... Stefan Steib could add the same shift + stich tests with the 60 and 80 MP backs on the Hartblei cam with the Canon TSE 17 and 24 mm and the Hartblei Zeiss 40 mm lenses:-)"

    If I had an IQ180 - sure ! I only had the chance to try it with the Leaf Aptus II 12 R with 17mm and this was outstanding - you don´t need any LCC at all.

    I want to try this at KN-Studitechnik as soon as they have some time.
    I am also looking into getting the CaldigitPCI Expresscard for my MacBookPro and try out the USB3.0 connection soon to the IQ180 . Did anybody try this already ?

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I want to try this at KN-Studitechnik as soon as they have some time.
    I am also looking into getting the CaldigitPCI Expresscard for my MacBookPro and try out the USB3.0 connection soon to the IQ180 . Did anybody try this already ?
    The USB port on the IQ series is pending a firmware update. Until then it is not activated and you will not get a connection.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    Hi Doug

    thx for the test. The result is very interesting.
    Especially that the color cast is neither round symmetric to the center nor it shows horizontally and vertically the same symmetry.
    This would mean the square pixel of the iQ180 back behave different towards out of orthogonal angle arriving light in horizontal or vertical direction.
    Any explanation for this?

    Another request: Could you please do the same test with the iQ160 to see how different (hopefully better) the back performs with the same Schneider lenses and could you do the same test with the iQ160 and iQ180 back with the Rodenstock 28, 32 and 40 mm lenses in order to have a complete comparison how the two backs work with the two lens families.

    And ... btw ... Stefan Steib could add the same shift + stich tests with the 60 and 80 MP backs on the Hartblei cam with the Canon TSE 17 and 24 mm and the Hartblei Zeiss 40 mm lenses:-)

    Then we would have a substantial overview of wide angle shift lens + back performances.
    I think it's unlikely we will have all the pieces/parts in one place (not rented, not reserved for demos, not sold) again until our October Fall Color Workshop. I would expect another round of testing at that point.

    I expect at that workshop we will many (or all) of these lenses either for the Cambo and Arca (or both). We will also have an IQ180, IQ160, an Aptus II 12, an Aptus II 10, and probably 4-5 other models of backs. We are also talking to Stefan about having an Hartblei system them (to be determined). In fact the ability to request pretty much any gear from our major manufacturers is one of the big draws for this workshop.

    These tests may look simple, and indeed a rough test is pretty simple. But a comprehensive test, controlling all variables to reduce false conclusions, and prepping those files for public dissemination is an incredibly time consuming task, especially when you're trying to gather very specific (and often very limited in quantity) items to test at the same time and place.

    Until then we of course offer either our Miami or Atlanta offices to anyone who wants to run a test. Anything we own we can reserve for free use for that purpose at those locations. Any tests anyone wants to run on location we can offer a discounted rental that counts towards the purchase of any of that equipment.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Just for the record: I have noticed this color problem when shifting with the 43mm on a P40+. So it's not a problem which is characteristic of the IQ180.
    I would expect you'd only see this with the 40+ with extreme movements no?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    the 17 TSE shows an horrible moustache distortion... is there a software to correct it properly ?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    wow.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Stefan - this thread is really meant to deal with the Schneider lenses on the IQ180 and you keep bringing it back to the Bi-cam. Perhaps it would be best if you would start a new thread. I would be happy to move some posts over to the thread if that is easier.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Sorry - of course. I will open a new one - HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs.
    I have already got contact to Christopher today so we will try to shoot the IQ180 with 17TS + 24TSV2 tomorrow.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I downloaded the 35, 43 and 60mm images and was alarmed by the 43mm image. I'm amazed that no one has seen this but that lens is out of alignment or the helical is out of alignment. Take a good look....... even without going outside of the central grid marks (RED) you will be able to see the softening of the image on the left hand side. Now go beyond the red grid mark 10mm on either side. The left side goes VERY soft and the right side stays in focus. To me, this would be unacceptable especially at this price level. If you compare this to the 35mm you will notice that it is more uniform in its lack of detail rendering from left to right when outside of the red grid marks. This is my big beef with this stuff. The 43, to me, is out of alignment or the helical is out of alignment. This just shouldn't happen at this level, but does! And even worse, if its brought up to some dealers - I'm excluding CI - the customer is thought to be either too pickey or a little wacko!

    I'm assuming that the same camera body was used (probably a Cambo) so I am left to conclude that the body itself would not be at fault but rather something with the lens. Believe me, this is not unique to Cambo and also has its roots deeply intrenched with Alpa lenses. I know this because I own Alpa and have experienced these issues. All I can say is that this shouldn't happen at this level!

    Victor

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I'm nor sure if it is the lens or the back. It is best seen and unacceptable on the 43, but the left side is much softer on the 60mm as well. Not as bad, but I think still pretty easy to see. So I would guess that the back or camera is at fault.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I'm nor sure if it is the lens or the back. It is best seen and unacceptable on the 43, but the left side is much softer on the 60mm as well. Not as bad, but I think still pretty easy to see. So I would guess that the back or camera is at fault.
    Yes Christopher...... I was going to mention the 60 as well but it is nowhere near as blatant as the 43 but how to you explain the evenness of the 35?!! I don't think that the back or camera body is at fault but rather a lens/mount/helical specific issue. Everyone seems to be looking for color shift but never realizing that focus plane consistency is, as well, a major issue!! What's even more amazing is that I have seen and tested this with H and Phase lenses in the 80mm range and have found that those lenses outperformed the Tech lenses (72, 80) edge to edge and also contrast. For all that money it sure should be better than it is....

    Victor

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    just got a chance to look at the 43 shot and i agree, the brick on the far left is not as sharp as the brick on the right for example.

    for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position...and i think one would be justified to expect perfect alignment when on the detents

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    I did not look at the 35, but if it is sharp on both sides it must've the lens.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    "for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position..."

    yes, but on the cambo every lens as is own tilt mecanism... right ?

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    cambo lenses can be supplied with or without tilt/swing bases. It is an extra cost option for most of them. My 43, used for the test, has the T/S base.

    It is the Arca that has one axis of tilt in the body and the alpa that offers a one axis tilt (or swing) only adapter for a few of it's lenses, 80mm and up, but they have to be short barrel lenses and, to use them without the tilt adapter, you need a 34mm spacer

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    just got a chance to look at the 43 shot and i agree, the brick on the far left is not as sharp as the brick on the right for example.

    for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position...and i think one would be justified to expect perfect alignment when on the detents
    I hope that this has opened some eyes to the fact that these lenses have various issues. First of all, they aren't tested. They sure should be for this cost level but everyone wants to cut costs. But even more alarming is that lenses produced for Phase (LS series) and Hasselblad have a more consistent level of focus plane accuracy - at least this has been my experience and this test has confirmed this. Four thousand, Five thousand, Six thousand and beyond for a lens and yet the end user gets stuff that can't keep an image in focus from left to right at f11! I hope this makes you wonder...... it sure makes me wonder. I'd buy an Arca in a heart beat if I knew I could REALLY get lenses that were at least as sharp edge to edge as my LS lenses.

    Victor

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Victor
    I have a theory about the sharpness plane problems.
    If you have lenses with a flange focal distance of minimum 63,3 or 74,9mm a focus plane unevenness of even several hundreds of mm does not count much. Compared to a 24mm or 28mm Schneider the flange focal range is about 9-10 times longer, thus the percentage of error must only be 1/10 as exact.
    It may be a theoretical advantage of sharpness from optics theory, but with focus tolerances in the Micron range to render an image unusable or with a reduced quality I would say the concept of real focal lenght totally lacks usability. The smaller the pixels will become, the more this will become apparent.
    Q.E.D.

    greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Stefan,

    I agree that tolerances in the shorter focal lengths are even more acute and require tighter tolerances. But, don't you think that the 43mm images, and even the 60mm images are examples of gross lens/mount manufacturing errors? I think that all manufacturers at this level should test EVERY lens so that the end user has some reliable assurance that the lens has passed some sort of rigorous quality test. From my point of view this is all very disappointing.

    Victor

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Victor

    I certainly do know how difficult this is. We have now calibrated our HCam-B1 to 1-2 hundreds of difference between Finder/Slider and Back/Slider position.
    And this is only possible because we have now fixed the adapter frame of the used SWC/Arcbody Viewfinder adapter with a screw to prevent any movements.
    I say that a needed exactness in the 5 Micron (0,5 hundreds mm!) range is not to be made right now for an affordable price. The concept of cameras and lenses which rely on this kind of technology renders any usability approach useless, or so extremly costly or timeconsuming that the slightest tolerance in plates, mounts, lens symmetry, or chip alignment will drive everybody crazy.
    As too be seen in the latest discussions.

    regards
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    before you crucify schneider/cambo for the wrong reason, you have to make sure the swing on the 43 was not engaged as that would produce the same effect

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Perhaps we need to accept that we have reached the limits of current manufacturing tolerances and plain old physics? Taking all the often-quoted numbers at face value:
    1. +/–0.01mm is sufficient to affect focus (quoting Alpa).
    2. Schneider and Rodenstock can only guarantee tolerances of +/–0.02mm (quoting Alpa again, but this has also been stated directly by Rodenstock and Schneider).
    3. We now have the ability to look into (not "at" – a subtle distinction) our images at 100%.
    4. Given the miniscule tolerances involved, T&S, temperature fluctuations etc are only going to compound these issues.
    ... etc etc ...

    Personally I don't think any manufacturers (lens or camera systems) at this level have generally better or worse tolerances. I think the problem lies in the fact that some companies make tolerances the centre of their marketing efforts, which creates the expectation that we are guaranteed Perfection in our images, at least technically-speaking.

    Yes, these systems cost a truckload of money. But theoretical Perfection is being limited by real-world considerations. Unless something is clearly out of tolerance (i.e. the proverbial "dog"), then I would argue we need to accept a certain level of cumulative error(s) in our respective systems.

    The bottom line for me is the creation of compelling images. Without trying to sound trite: Engineers, manufacturers, physicists, software writers and my equipment are not the factors holding me back from my goal.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    before you crucify schneider/cambo for the wrong reason, you have to make sure the swing on the 43 was not engaged as that would produce the same effect
    I don't believe that is the case..... but even IF I give this every benefit of the doubt how do you explain the 60mm which should be tack sharp left to right.

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    @cng

    "The bottom line for me is the creation of compelling images".

    Now you hit the target. I am absolutely sure that an image which has structure, creative content and imagination is holding up for itself , even if one side of the image lacks 5 % micron sharpness at 100 % enlargement (which by the way at 80 Mpix equals something in the 2x3m size - and - needs to be looked at from half a meter away to mention it which is totally unnatural .

    On the other hand, a technical perfect, supersharp and 16 bit devellopped HDR with every detail even in shadows and highlights which is plain boring will not become a one Iota better image by this perfection.

    And - if I need to spend half an hour before I can take an image to set everything up and control all parameters for perfect sharpness etc.pp. this sucks completely........

    just my 2 cents.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    as long as the lens is not faulty, with a T/S base, the focus plane issue is moot anyway, since that is the point of the T/S functionality.

    ultimately, you have to see the image to see if you have the focus you want.

    now if the lenses are not capable of bringing a plane into focus, that is a problem

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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    as long as the lens is not faulty, with a T/S base, the focus plane issue is moot anyway, since that is the point of the T/S functionality.

    ultimately, you have to see the image to see if you have the focus you want.

    now if the lenses are not capable of bringing a plane into focus, that is a problem
    You'll easily be able to test all of this for yourself. Maybe it was a fluke mistake by Doug...... although I have a lot of confidence in Mr. Peterson. Regardless if the lens has a defect then Cambo should stand behind it and I'm sure they will. This is just part of the exercise that some have to go through with some of this equipment. I also extend my thanks for your getting involved with this test..... it was very enlightening. I hope all of this works out for you.

    Victor

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