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Thread: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Archivue
    I don´t know which 17ts you are speaking about, the maybe 15/16 samples I have seen so far were straight as Microgrid paper.
    About the definition of distortion- here is a nice one- by Zeiss:
    http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_33_Distortion_EN/$File/CLN33_Distortion_Article.pdf

    and here as a small sample just to see how the 17mmTS works on the Leaf Aptus II 12R (original file has 240 MB opened and is tack sharp and straight - ask Yair, he has the original file) - this is a double screenshot 1. from Capture one - to get the orange lines and then opened in CS5 and a second screenshot with screen and helplines blue from the rulers.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 6th July 2011 at 21:17.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    and here some cutouts 100% from center, top right and left down border - see cigarette......

    regards
    Stefan

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

    Now to demonstrate the extreme perspective the camera just turned to the right about 35 degrees. Tripod and head did not move ! Full image and cutouts
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 6th July 2011 at 12:06.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    On request in the IQ 180/ Schneider lens test thread we open a new one separately. My posts from there are moved here.

    More to come tomorrow.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Stefen, this will make interesting reading but don't just limit it to the IQ180/Aptus 12.

    IQ160/P65+ and the Hasselblad H4D60 examples would be good also.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hi Gareth
    you know this is not so easy and as Doug already said such a shootout is hard to organize. We are not a dealer for those backs so I rely on support of either customers or the local dealers. The images I show are often done at the installation at customer site, or either on the Canon or PCP dealer tour that I do regularly here in Germany, I get supported by people at Canon,Phase and Leaf, and we also have good connections to Hasselblad Germany, but all these backs are on short supply and getting 5-6 of these on the same place to shoot them on the same subject is extremly difficult.
    This is the reason why I am extremly interested to participate to this October event in new England with Capture integration, this will enable us to use all these backs and do what you want to see.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/do...op-Version.pdf

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 6th July 2011 at 21:40.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Stefan, if you want to send me a camera & lens in HK I can certainly make time to test with a 33mp leaf back for you, plenty of straight lines here

    Paul

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    I shot this yesterday on a 39Mp CF back, using the 24mm at F11 with only shift full up 12mm, no tilt or swing. No lens cast correction, just the 24mm 12 mm shifted up. As said before, i am still very amased by the ease of operation of the camera. Viewing the large groundglass, focussing on the groundglass, being able to shoot at extreme high shutterspeeds ( wich i us with my 85mm Nikon 1,4 wide open or my 300mm 2,8 for razorthin DOF).
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 7th July 2011 at 02:40.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hi Paul
    why don´t you go to our dealer in Hongkong they have a camera for you to try !
    You sure know Nexor - Alwick Chiang. Full address on our dealers webpage:
    http://hartblei.de/en/dealers.htm

    regards
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 7th July 2011 at 05:48.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    OK- here as promised the shots we did this morning with the IQ180(Thank you Christopher !!!) - nice back I have to say - so how do I convince my banker ???
    there are 2 Positions we tried both with 17mm and 24mm, all shots were done with f11,5, 35 ASA and as much shift as possible.
    I also have to say I did crop a bit as the original (rental)17+24mm lenses that we got cannot be modified which is a must for the 80Mpix backs- there is a plastik ring on the back of both of the lenses about 2-3mm thick and covering the electronics connectors. If this would be my lenses I´d either cut out the edges of the plastik or completely remove this cover resulting in another 3-4mm shift available without vignetting in any direction.So there is a bit of vignetting left intentionally (normally I´d remove this with photoshop in a second)
    Christopher tried a whiteshot but after seeing it did not have any color cast we dropped this , the HCam-B1 simply does not need it.

    So here is position 1 with the 17mm 1x whole image - 3 cutouts 100%
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 7th July 2011 at 07:52.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    This is Position 1 of the IQ180/HCam-B1 test with Canon TS24mm about 10mm shift upwards. f11,5 , 35 ASA
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 7th July 2011 at 04:23.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Now position 2 with the 17mm IQ180/HCam-B1

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    And finally position 2 with IQ180/HCam-B1 and 24mm TS

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hi Stefan
    Do I understand correctly that the overall images featured in posts 10,11,12,and 13
    Illustrate that the 17 and 24 ts lenses cover almost the entire iq180 sensor?

    If not,what is the file size for the overall images ?

    Thanks,
    Mark

    www.marktomalty.com

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    The lens itself covers a lot more. The black corners you see is from a plastic cap on the back of the lens. It is not the end of the image circle.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hi Christopher, was there a lot of NR applies to these images (or heavy jpeg compression) as I'm seeing a lot of smudging of the details and then a lot of sharpening to counteract it. It's especially noticeable on the green foliage/grass in the stair crop of the first setup and in the grey metalwork/grid of the building.

    I'd have thought the IQ180 would have rendered these areas better than this as my P65+ picks up more detail than that, especially on a sunny, contrasty day. Or is it that these Canon lenses aren't that great when shifted because at present if you hadn't told us it was an IQ180 they look like images out of my 1DsIII.

    Great but not amazing IMO.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hello Gazwas

    these are screenshots, I have also mentioned that they got a "compressed look" which differs from the impression I had when I looked at it in Capture one. The files itself did not get any noise reduction or more than the standard shaperning that 6.2.1 applies when opening it.

    The 17mm was shifted several mm on the IQ180 and it is true that this leads to some softness in the extreme corners, but - as this is the only lens worldwide which even gets there I think it´s still sensational.
    And the softness also depends on the extreme spheric sharpness area of the lens, which also needs to be taken into account.

    The 24mm is amazing,it´s shifted 10mm on the IQ180 and this beats any other lens in that focal range, with no color cast, no chromas and nearly no light falloff.

    Next time I hope I can have a set of Canon´s modified to have the plastic cover removed, am very curious for these results.
    For me at the moment this is not needed with my P45+ as these slightly smaller chips don´t vignette so this is necessary only for P65+ and IQ180 and Leaf 56+80 Mpix.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Hi Christopher, was there a lot of NR applies to these images (or heavy jpeg compression) as I'm seeing a lot of smudging of the details and then a lot of sharpening to counteract it. It's especially noticeable on the green foliage/grass in the stair crop of the first setup and in the grey metalwork/grid of the building.

    I'd have thought the IQ180 would have rendered these areas better than this as my P65+ picks up more detail than that, especially on a sunny, contrasty day. Or is it that these Canon lenses aren't that great when shifted because at present if you hadn't told us it was an IQ180 they look like images out of my 1DsIII.
    If the 17TS wasn't a bit soft in the corners on a 5.2 micron 645 sensor I'd be, frankly, incredulous. This lens is significantly wider than the Rodenstock 23mm HR (which costs around US$7k).

    The 1Ds III sensor is a fraction as large physically. It would take FOUR overlapping 1Ds III frames to capture the area of the image circle captured in a single IQ180 frame and would still be lower in capture resolution (since it's pixels are 6.4 rather than 5.2 pixels large).



    A 17mm on a IQ180 is the equivalent of a 11mm on a 1Ds III. Show me an 11mm on a 1Ds III that is sharp at the corners and has very little geometric distortion.

    Then remember that the IQ180 with the 17TS is producing an 80mp image. So if you wanted to compare to an 11mm + 1DS III you would need to uprez the 1DS III to quadruple the resolution.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    The files itself did not get any noise reduction or more than the standard shaperning that 6.2.1 applies when opening it.
    Probably a minor language/translation thing, but it's probably most accurate to revise your wording here a tiny bit. It could be read that the file did not receive any noise reduction.

    e.g. [The files received default C1 6.2.1 noise reduction and default C1 6.2.1 sharpening.]

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    OK- here as promised the shots we did this morning with the IQ180(Thank you Christopher !!!) - nice back I have to say - so how do I convince my banker ???
    there are 2 Positions we tried both with 17mm and 24mm, all shots were done with f11,5, 35 ASA and as much shift as possible.
    I also have to say I did crop a bit as the original (rental)17+24mm lenses that we got cannot be modified which is a must for the 80Mpix backs- there is a plastik ring on the back of both of the lenses about 2-3mm thick and covering the electronics connectors. If this would be my lenses I´d either cut out the edges of the plastik or completely remove this cover resulting in another 3-4mm shift available without vignetting in any direction.So there is a bit of vignetting left intentionally (normally I´d remove this with photoshop in a second)
    Christopher tried a whiteshot but after seeing it did not have any color cast we dropped this , the HCam-B1 simply does not need it.

    So here is position 1 with the 17mm 1x whole image - 3 cutouts 100%
    I'll bet you $20 that if you used Apple-L (the auto levels command) on that white sheet you would have noticed slight color cast at the corners and some modest vignette towards the edges.

    Clearly it's very little (if I'm right) and could surely be ignored but in some critical applications (e.g. shooting interiors at an expansive all-white gallery) it would be worth ensuring the color accuracy throughout the frame.

    I'm basing this bet on our experience with 645 tilt-shift lenses (Mamiya 50mm, Hartblei 45mm TS, X-2 body with RZ lenses). While the vast majority of color-cast is caused by lens-proximity it's still possible to happen out beyond a 35mm or 645 lens mount.

    Don't forget you can also use the LCC for automatic and accurate dust removal.

    We can redeem the bet in New England :-).

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hi Doug

    "We can redeem the bet in New England :-)."

    this sounds good to me !

    Well I also think that the canons offer an incredible value for all 20-50 Mpix chips too, especially as they still offer far over 100 degrees for less than 2 K$ with movements.
    And yes why not use LCC on it, I have never done it as I shoot a lot of Night stuff with the P45+ also I stitch a lot - with two 39Mpix this gets up to about 60 Mpix, and there this is covered by the photoshop automatic masks anyway, but I will try.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    ...and yet another reason to attend the Capture Integration Masters Series workshop in New England this October. (I need a nanny!) I'd love to see the H Cam B1 up close in action.

    ken

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Dear Stefan

    Lots of interest in wides and shifts, but my interest in the HCam is for my Leica R lenses. I have a sliding back with R mount and have some luck with a P45+ and P65+. The former does not vignette, the latter, about 20%

    The R modular is one of the fastest and longest lenses out there, and the quality is every bit up to 40MP, and 60MP. Who knows, maybe even 80MP.

    But I would be happy witha P40+ and the R lenses (almost 2000mm equivalent with 2x and crop on a 800mm 5.6 lens!)

    The issue is shutter speed (and ISO of course). Will the HCam do 1/2000 that one needs? is the mount stable enough?

    I actually do not worry so much about the latter since I put the Lens and Body on a rail together and have such as an optical bench. REALLY cuts down vibration. However, the Copal shutter is the limiting factor only 1/250 possible.

    SO, as I said, HCam might be promising alternative, if it worked.

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    I think we need to have another Capture Integration Pigs in a Blanket in Carmel and invite Stefan to bring the HCam along...


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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Victor

    The shortest time we can use is 1/4000 sec - same as the 645DF as this is the same shutter. And we can use this untethered with all backs.
    This because our Microcomputer in the camera generates the timings necessary to do this. Actually HCam-B1 is an electronically controlled MF camera like the 645DF but without a Mirror.

    The mount is made by Novoflex and we have specified it to the tightest possible extent to still meet the canon spec but also to have best fit without movements- axial or radial.The mount is attached to a 5 mm Aluminium plate that holds everything without any distortions - even under weight.
    This enables us to use the Hartblei lenses with Tripod collars to even let the camera move freely - making this a parallaxfree stitchable system.

    And yes I also have used Leica R lenses on the HCam-B1, I had my 2,8/180mm Elmarit and 4/250mm Telyt on it and this was pretty nice quality (tried with my P45+).
    Actually I believe that many Leica R lenses from 50mm and up were MF lenses (Image circle wise) but with a short flange focal distance- this to use only the sweet spot of this glass- which also explains why these lenses were so expensive ! And there are so many nice R lenses:e.g. 3,4/180 Apo or the Apo/macro 100mm to speak about the most regarded ones.

    greetings from Munich

    Stefan

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'd have thought the IQ180 would have rendered these areas better than this as my P65+ picks up more detail than that, especially on a sunny, contrasty day. Or is it that these Canon lenses aren't that great when shifted because at present if you hadn't told us it was an IQ180 they look like images out of my 1DsIII.
    Remember that these pixels each cover only a quarter of the area of a Canon 1DsIII pixel. You really can't compare 100% crops of two sensors when the resolution differs by so much.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Is there any way to use these Canon-lenses on a Phase One camera?
    Is there anyone who make an adapter for this use?

    The more normal adapter would work the other way around..

    Henrik

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Victor

    The shortest time we can use is 1/4000 sec - same as the 645DF as this is the same shutter. And we can use this untethered with all backs.
    This because our Microcomputer in the camera generates the timings necessary to do this. Actually HCam-B1 is an electronically controlled MF camera like the 645DF but without a Mirror.

    The mount is made by Novoflex and we have specified it to the tightest possible extent to still meet the canon spec but also to have best fit without movements- axial or radial.The mount is attached to a 5 mm Aluminium plate that holds everything without any distortions - even under weight.
    This enables us to use the Hartblei lenses with Tripod collars to even let the camera move freely - making this a parallaxfree stitchable system.

    And yes I also have used Leica R lenses on the HCam-B1, I had my 2,8/180mm Elmarit and 4/250mm Telyt on it and this was pretty nice quality (tried with my P45+).
    Actually I believe that many Leica R lenses from 50mm and up were MF lenses (Image circle wise) but with a short flange focal distance- this to use only the sweet spot of this glass- which also explains why these lenses were so expensive ! And there are so many nice R lenses:e.g. 3,4/180 Apo or the Apo/macro 100mm to speak about the most regarded ones.

    greetings from Munich

    Stefan
    So, if I understand correctly, there is a lot of life to squeeze out of the R lenses. And you make the camera in a Contax mount for the back as well, yes?

    Can you PM me the price for the HCam with Contax 645 and R mount?

    BTW, do you ever sleep?

    regards
    Victor

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by henrkfoto View Post
    Is there any way to use these Canon-lenses on a Phase One camera?
    Is there anyone who make an adapter for this use?

    The more normal adapter would work the other way around..

    Henrik
    That would not be possible due to the shorter flange focal distance of the Canon lenses.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Victor
    our newest version HCam-B1 has an interchangeable Back mount (made by Silvestri) which can be Hasselblad V, H, Mamiya 645 and Contax 645.
    The Leica R Lenses can be used with an adapter from Canon EF to Leica R (e.g. Novoflex)

    Yes I sleep, but not so much......

    Regards
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 13th July 2011 at 22:52.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Victor
    our newest version HCam-B1 has an interchangeable Back mount (made by Silvestri) which can be Hasselblad V, H, Mamiya 645 and Contax 645.
    Any plans for a Hy6 mount?

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Well if there is a Silvestri Hy6 back adapter we can also use this one - sure.

    Stefan

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Just out of interest, what power source is needed when using Hasselblad H backs with the HCam-B1?

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    We have a Firewire plugin powerpack for this - 200 €. About the size of a quantum for Flashes.
    Same applies to tethered usage of all backs (exception the new IQ´s) on the Unibody Macbook Pro´s, because the firewire port does not supply enough power.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs


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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Thanks guys.

    I'd be looking for a compact and very light solution for un-tethered use and wouldn't need vast reserves of power for intense day long shooting.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Thanks again.

    I'm currently looking at various options and doing a bit of research, but I have to say the HCam looks particularly interesting.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Stefan, thanks, Peartree have an excellent reputation in the UK.

    At the moment I'm not sure where I'm headed, I'm juggling many ideas, but it's good to know there's a demo available if I need it.

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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Hello Stefen
    is there a link to a picture and spec for the firewire pack for tethered use?
    I would love a solution for my leaf that doesn't involve;
    a hub, a power brick, a power source, and an extra cable just to tether.
    Thanks,
    Jon

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Jon

    here is a diagramm of the product, I will need to make a photo when I have some spare time. We have already delivered some of these and they work quite well. This was develloped by my italian partner PK- they are Hasselblad specialists (Italy Importer for years), so they know exactly what they do

    We sell the version with all cables complete (not the long Firewire!) for 200 € (+VAT in Germany).

    regards

    Stefan

  43. #43
    Workshop Member
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    uhmmm...
    "I would love a solution for my leaf that doesn't involve;
    a hub, a power brick, a power source, and an extra cable..."

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Well - only solution right now is buy an IQ 180/160/140.
    But this costs a bit more than 200 €......

    Stefan

  45. #45
    Member JonMo's Avatar
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Thanks Stefan,
    It is just as many parts as the "leaf" solution.
    I still have no idea what is so complicated that they couldn't just put a receptacle for the leaf back battery with a mini jack plug to insert the power from it to the back through the firewire cable with a break out wire going to just the back.
    As a leaf back owner I already have a small pile of batteries.
    Oh well.
    By the by my iq 180 will hopefully arrive by the end of Sept,
    and yes it is costing a touch more than 200 Euros.

  46. #46
    jingq
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    Re: HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs

    Leaf had a firewire800 to DC plug adapter that shipped with their aptus.
    Small object. Connect that to a portable battery like the Energizer XP8000 and you're set.
    http://www.energizerpowerpacks.com/il/products/xp8000/
    They have a whole range of products that could do the job, just depends on the voltage

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