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Thread: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

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    is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    thanks

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    No...still waiting for firmware

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    They are also very clear it may not be easy to use under bright light -- keeping expectations in line...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    They are also very clear it may not be easy to use under bright light -- keeping expectations in line...
    I don't remember them saying this when P1 announced the IQ series. I seem to remember many people were very excited by the introduction of liveview and I dare say there were those who were seduced and placed an order.

    Admittedly I could be mistaken.
    Last edited by KeithL; 12th July 2011 at 05:26. Reason: idiocy

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    I think I recall reading about live view and heat build-up in brightly lit scenes? (*dunno*---Jack?) But I do recall mention of using a variable ND filter to help in those situations with bright light...

    ken

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I don't remember them saying this when P1 announced the IQ series. I seem to remember many people were very excited by the introduction of liveview and I dare say there were those who were seduced and placed an order.

    Admittedly I could be mistaken.
    Keith, this can easily be solved with a Hoodman Loupe to shade the light.

    FYI: I'm working on an academic article... just like Doug!

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    Keith, this can easily be solved with a Hoodman Loupe to shade the light.
    Derek, you mean that this latest-greatest super-duper high-res screen doesn't deliver without a strap-on attached to it?


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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Derek, you mean that this latest-greatest super-duper high-res screen doesn't deliver without a strap-on attached to it?

    Keith, some come with a strap-on, some don't.

    Kind regards,
    Derek

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    The limitations of "bright light" do not have to do with the new high res LCD, but with the sensor. I finally recalled that this information is from Mark Dubovoy's review over at LL. His commentary was based on representations from Phase One's Chief Tech Officer and President of R&D, Claus Molgaard. From Mark Dubovoy's review: "Because all Medium Format backs use CCD sensors, when keeping the shutter open with light falling on the sensor for a long period of time during Live View it is quite easy to saturate the sensor.

    As a consequence, the use of a strong neutral density filter will be required when using Live View in bright light conditions. I call this ugly because none of us wants to have to take any additional steps or carry any additional equipment, but unfortunately, there is no way out of this. Claus recommends the use of a variable neutral density filter in the range of about 3-9 F/stops. I intend to carry just one filter of a diameter large enough to cover all my lenses (either hand held in front of the lens, or screwed on with an adapter ring)."

    Whether or not the "bright light" issue is of significance will have to wait for the firmware update. It won't be of much consequence for me since the overall user interface of the IQ180 works great for me; users of technical cameras will certainly like the live view option. I'll hold onto my variable ND filter for those gear enabled friends...

    ken

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Ah, a strap-on filter.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Ah, a strap-on filter.
    I'm really glad that there are other sick minds in the GetDPI family other than me and Don.

    (You scared yet, Jack?)

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    So is there any difference between this and tethered Live View? LuLa did an article about field tethering a year or two ago, no mention of overheating the sensor or needing a ND filter.

    I guess we'll know soon enough, but seems live view on the back shouldn't be much different than live view tethered, which doesn't seem to have an issue even outside sometimes, unless their is extra heat buildup because it works the onboard processors much harder.
    wayne
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    I'm pretty sure Liveview will be horrible and a waste of waiting time. Oh and I'm a very happy IQ180 shooter

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    i can't imagine that the "in body" live view, will be far superior than the today tethered live view... if i'm right, it's not an option for architecture at all !

    let's keep the fingers cross...

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I'm pretty sure Liveview will be horrible and a waste of waiting time. Oh and I'm a very happy IQ180 shooter
    Agreed Christopher -- Focus Mask and actual 100% review are so excellent now, I cannot see myself even bothering with live view.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    well, it has to do with heat from an over exposed sensor... easy to fix with a MF lens (like, hassey, just stop down) or use the preview button (until your finger falls off :-)

    You have to remember in a tech camera, all is manual, so I'm not that worried
    and if you have lots of light you can have lots of DOF

    for extreme small DOF, yes will be problematic, but then for those situations I doubt AF lenses will know where you want the plane of focus peak...so shoot check reshoot, or bracket will work.

    BUT, if you want the bumper, not yje hood in focus at a turn in the Daytona 500, you are likely out of luck, except to prefocus anyway...

    so, all trade-off...

    Victor

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    I still hopeful Live View for actual focusing of a tech camera will be useful, even if I have to put a vari-ND in front of it. Otherwise the Alpa might be up for sale.

    I shoot in pretty subdued light most of the time (deep shade in the forest or after the sun goes down) so I may not even need ND on it when light is this low. Right now it's shoot, check, tweak, shoot, check, tweak when I"m on the Alpa. . Personally I'd rather have a very slow live view (even 1 frame/second would be fine‚ and use a hoodman to be able to see the display easily even in bright light.

    The focus rings/disto thing just doesn't appeal to me ... afraid the disto will be reading the wrong thing (happens to me when I'm playing golf on occasion). Then if you shoot it and the focus is not quite right it's tweak, shoot, check, tweak, shoot, check ....
    wayne
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    The focus rings/disto thing just doesn't appeal to me ... afraid the disto will be reading the wrong thing (happens to me when I'm playing golf on occasion). Then if you shoot it and the focus is not quite right it's tweak, shoot, check, tweak, shoot, check ....
    Wayne - Not certain about other models however I've just begun using the D5 which has a small screen to assist in targeting the focus dot. I've also been using this in bright outdoor light and so far I'm impressed. Just thought I'd mention this due to your thoughts of the disto reading the wrong thing.

    I don't like using a bunch of gadgets and gizmos - they always remind me of a snake oil salesman selling something that'll cure everything when in the end it just adds more effort for little gain. I've tried a groundglass which worked but was just too much of a PIA. The D5 is so far working out for me. I'm uncertain at this stage if I'd like a live view or not given the drawbacks and possible side effects having it might be.

    Don
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I'm really glad that there are other sick minds in the GetDPI family other than me and Don.

    (You scared yet, Jack?)
    I was thinking of a reply however ......
    Don Libby
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    "Real" liveview in a back for use on a tech camera will be a game changer IMO. I don't think this time around (new IQ backs) it will be that great of an implementation. When/if it ever does come with the quality associated with the 35mm bodies, coupled with the new crisp IQ type screen, gone will be the days of ground glass framing, laser distos, optical viewfinders, focus masks and shoot then chimp at 100% workflows. It will also negate the need for some of these expensive helical mounted lenses as the view/rail camera will start feeling the love of this 100% accurate focusing method.

    IMO, the company that gets there first, Hasselblad, Phase/Leaf will have a total winner on their hands and it will start a revolution........... Ventizz are you listening?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    There is only one way to get a nice and usable Liveview with a CCD - using a shutter as Sinar did it.
    And - without stressing imagination all too much- I could imagine what Phase is looking after: MAYBE - if they use the DF bodies with the Schneider LS lenses they could trigger the shutter synced with the CCD- thus getting a perfect preview without any saturation or other issues- kind of Pixelplus+Leafshutter+ Liveview. But this would be limited ONLY to the DF.

    ???? If so- then this would work. Getting it up and running - is another issue.
    probably it´s more difficult then they thought.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Sinar did implement this method for the live-video, by using the lens shutter to avoid saturation of the CCD sensor on their Hy6. But it meant also a much reduced lifetime for the shutter itself.

    As a consequence of a reduced shutter lifetime this was abandonned when the Hy6 hit the market.

    Thierry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    if they use the DF bodies with the Schneider LS lenses they could trigger the shutter synced with the CCD- thus getting a perfect preview without any saturation or other issues- kind of Pixelplus+Leafshutter+ Liveview. But this would be limited ONLY to the DF.

    ???? If so- then this would work. Getting it up and running - is another issue.
    probably it´s more difficult then they thought.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    On the Fuji s5 it gave you 30s then stopped for a bit. Ive seen on c1 tethered it will shutdown temporarily on a leaf back. Having used this method, I found it workable. Happy to have live view in return for such a compromise. I recall reading that longer tethered live view is the primary reason for leaf backs having a fan and vents. Secondary being it may help noise. I can't find that article now though.

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Hi Thierry

    As much as I know Phase has now the rights on the Hy6 technology. So I still say maybe they have improved this with the faster leafshutters in the LS lenses, running these shutters with a comparably long time in lets say 35asa mode and 1/5 of a second twice a second, I think this could work quite well.
    Lifetime span - that´s another issue, but as it´s not in the bodies but in the lenses I could imagine it´s working (unless You only use only one lens all the time). And - this could pave way to a new and improved body that I´m sure they are develloping -needing better powersupply, energy management and advanced back to body communication.
    I think this Liveview thing is the tip of the "soon to be exposed iceberg".

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Thierry
    As much as I know Phase has now the rights on the Hy6 technology.
    Stefan
    Unless I slept through the news this is not my understanding.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    David - maybe:

    "Developments at Leaf

    On 25 June 2009 PhaseOne and senior Leaf management agreed to set up a joint company, Leaf Imaging Ltd, taking over most of the Leaf assets (parent company Kodak had already for some time been looking at options to sell off Leaf). The longer term effects of this new development are as yet unknown and the new company has stated that it is further considering its options regarding the AFi. As PhaseOne already has a strategic alliance with Mamiya, the AFi would constitute an additional platform. Many users have meanwhile called upon Leaf Imaging to continue the AFi line through a petition on the web.
    The new Leaf Imaging Ltd company has decided to offer its latest digital Aptus-II 12 back in an Hy6/AFi mount, available in Q1 2011."

    this is from this website:
    http://www.rolleiflexpages.com/Hy6.html

    and that Phase owns Leaf now is well known I believe. The rights to the AFI =Hy6 were at Kodak see here:

    http://www.photoscala.de/grafik/2009...anigramm-a.jpg

    So I guess - yes - Good morning !

    greetings from Munich
    Stefan

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    My understanding is that the Hy6/AF1/Rollie camera bodies were developed as a joint venture between Leaf/Jenoptic ( which owned Sinar) and Rollie - I can't read German but the chart you throw up indicates that Leaf was a party to the JV and now since Leaf are owned by Phase One, Phase One has an interest in the rights to the body. So you can still buy a Leaf branded camera which slightly different to a Sinar branded camera in how battery functionality works and the name on the camera.

    I suspect that the rights to the body are access to manufacturing and production rights - rather than profit share in bodies made for anyone under any brand.

    Phase One have probably decided that amount of Mamiya glass out there in 645 and RZ form far outnumber the amount of Rollie mount glass made by Schneider and Zeiss

    hence the tie up buying or whatever of mamiya bodies and lenses - remember the Hy6/Afi was an attempt by Jenoptic/Sinar/Lef to copy the Hasselblad strategy or respond to the Hasselblad strategy and Phase One was forced into buying linking to Mamiya as a result - because they werent part of the club.

    Now Scheider is happy to design a lens with a Leaf shutter for Mamiya - they have been doing it of Rollie for years

    all that Phase One needs is a decent body - but of course those who are using the curent body can make do until a new one is announced.

    then when the new body is announced maybe Leaf wont be able to make an Afi mount version of their back which would be a shame since Sinar appear to have lost interest in the MFD segment apart from their multi-shot backs.

    Phase One commentary in here is too full of itself at times - or thats the way it comes across -I am disappointed by the marketing claims of Phase One regarding live view on camera - which was suppossed to be a game changer for tech camera users in the field.

    When any of these 645 lens makers can produce something like a 23mm Rodenstock - let me know - the closest to this level of excellence is (of course from Leica) - and to use the quality glass properly you actually dont need the elephant gun sized sensors - and the now just creeping into mainstream understanding problems associated @ 'outer edges of chip" in "some" applications' - these comments are limited to use on tech cameras- I am sure for DSLR type applications they arent the same - in this case there are other lesser issues which can be fixed ala discussion above.

    It would be a real shame if Leaf was ever to lose its independance and it only became a brand name on a second rate or second tier Phase One chip - a real shame.

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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Stefan, I think what threw me off was your reference to the Hy6 which I understand to be a product that DHW has the rights to. I do understand what you mean when you say AFI=Hy6 and, since Phase has acquired Leaf, etc. etc. But I suspect there are some legal issues which preclude Phase from offering a back for the Hy6. If not, I would think they would have done so as I believe a Hy6 on a Phase back would be very much in demand. Wouldn't it be nice if that was the direction Phase was taking for their next camera body.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I believe a Hy6 on a Phase back would be very much in demand. Wouldn't it be nice if that was the direction Phase was taking for their next camera body.
    +1, and one customer waiting. But as long as I'm dreaming I'll keep the revolving sensor and sensorflex from the Leaf and add it to the IQ's screen and other features.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: is Liveview available on IQ yet?

    @Peter
    and you see Schneider is again involved in this. Which makes it even more plausible. I don´t think that Phase will build Hy6 bodies, but they have full access to all engineering and construction data by Leaf. And there we go.

    @David
    Nobody knows who actually is the "owner" of the Knowhow of the camera.
    This is the reason I posted the diagram. Since it was made over 2 years have passed. The fact that Sinar and DHW are selling the bodies does not mean (in my opinion) that they have the rights to it. And further - the technology for the shutter is not made by Schneider - this is made by Prontor who have stopped to market their own products as shutters, but who are definitely the most important (and only left)player in shutter technolgy for OEM customers beside Copal.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 14th July 2011 at 05:19.

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