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Thread: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

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    Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    My move from large format to Alpa tech has been one bumpy road for me, which, quite frankly is actually getting me down, I mean, it's making me truly miserable. I didn't expect so many problems. Anyway that's all another story.

    I've a DM33 back (Leaf Aptus II 7) and it has been fine apart from one incompatibility with a CF card. I've used a DF body, 645N bellows, a variety of manual lenses and also used it with a Large Format field camera and all sorts of lenses, no problems whatsoever. I shot this back on a DF body about a week ago at a horse riding event with not one single issue. So the gear has been fine, batteries were fully charged a week ago.

    Eventually after some weeks, I finally have an actual lens (kind of essential component) and an hour to spare so went out today to try it all out. A Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 90/5.6 + Alpa TC + DM33 back. It was fairly humid and breezy, by the coast.

    I shot a few batches of images to be focus stacked:
    • The images were meant to have some near and far details, foliage, shadows and highlights.
    • Between the shots below nothing changed except focus.
    • There were about 6-10s between each shot.
    • Some problem shots were focused near, some far.
    • The shutter was 1/8s however I noticed on the problematic images it shows 1/20s. This is the only concrete clue I have. The shutter seems fine, I wonder could this be a faulty release cable or PC terminal.
    • It was too dark to test outside after downloading the images, testing indoors under flash (a good 50 shots) did not have a single problem with the same cable.


    Has anyone seen anything like this before?

    Paul








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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Try another sync cable if you have one but I suspect that the shutter is dragging and needs a service

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    +1 lagging shutter

    see also: http://www.captureintegration.com/20...s-on-the-rise/


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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Yair, Doug,

    Thanks for the quick response ... I've just tested 35 shots with a new metz cable I had bought and all were consistent. The higher speeds don't seem to register properly under tungsten lighting, but I'll check that out in daylight over the coming days. It's a brand new lens from Alpa, I've never set the speed after cocking and always leave it on B when stored, some of my shutters are 20 years old and work fine.

    Yair, perhaps you have some idea about this ... on the TC, I've found I have a tendency to knock the release lever on the Leaf back. Any simple solutions for something that would fit snugly over it so it can't release the back?

    Thanks again,
    Paul

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Paul,

    I would suggest you to visit your local dealer, if the issue you have experienced still subsists.
    It is most probably a shutter issue, as suggested by Yair and Doug.

    Best regards
    Thierry
    Thierry Hagenauer
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  6. #6
    smei_ch
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Wouldn't it make more sense to contact your dealer first?

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    You would think with this gear like this that I would not hesitate to call my dealer. Honestly if we had someone like Paul Slotboom out here, that would obviously be the case. Maybe he just raises the bar too high ... things are tough at the top ... These forums are simply far more useful, the internet more trustworthy. Actually most of my decisions are now made from the Optech website, it's a shame they don't get the margin.

    This lens for example, it was scheduled to turn up last week on Thursday or Friday, however it arrived just after the weekend due to a "mixup". I wonder is it normal for a brand new lens shipped from Alpa to have no seal on the box but just be open? Could anyone tell me were their brand new lenses sealed or not?

    Paul

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    You would think with this gear like this that I would not hesitate to call my dealer. Honestly if we had someone like Paul Slotboom out here, that would obviously be the case. Maybe he just raises the bar too high ... things are tough at the top ... These forums are simply far more useful, the internet more trustworthy. Actually most of my decisions are now made from the Optech website, it's a shame they don't get the margin.

    This lens for example, it was scheduled to turn up last week on Thursday or Friday, however it arrived just after the weekend due to a "mixup". I wonder is it normal for a brand new lens shipped from Alpa to have no seal on the box but just be open? Could anyone tell me were their brand new lenses sealed or not?

    Paul
    Paul,

    I don't know where you bought your kit, if you bought it new. I can only tell you that a dealer is there to help in such situations. The net and trying to solve issues on a forum can only be a guess with such a technical issue.

    There is no reason you should not contact your dealer.

    Thierry
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]net.ch

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    . . . . . . . . I wonder is it normal for a brand new lens shipped from Alpa to have no seal on the box but just be open? Could anyone tell me were their brand new lenses sealed or not?
    Paul
    No lens box I ever received when buying a brand new lens , HASSELBLAD , ALPA , or other brands , has ever been sealed .
    They all were packed within a plastic bag in their original box . I think , this is normal .
    I could imagine , if you do a private import , and not buy from a dealer in your country , that the customs people open the box to see what is inside , although they could use X-RAY controls .

    On the other hand , it is hard to imagine , that a brand new lens is equipped with a failing shutter .
    I have four ALPA lenses and still four lenses with a copal shutter from my LF time . I never experienced a failing shutter with these lenses .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    I can only second that.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    No lens box I ever received when buying a brand new lens , HASSELBLAD , ALPA , or other brands , has ever been sealed .
    They all were packed within a plastic bag in their original box . I think , this is normal .
    I could imagine , if you do a private import , and not buy from a dealer in your country , that the customs people open the box to see what is inside , although they could use X-RAY controls .

    On the other hand , it is hard to imagine , that a brand new lens is equipped with a failing shutter .
    I have four ALPA lenses and still four lenses with a copal shutter from my LF time . I never experienced a failing shutter with these lenses .
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    I have no idea about the Leaf back synching, i.e. timing for sensor flushing prior next exposure. Just in case the sensor has not been completely flushed before the next exposure, such effects can happen for example on Hassy backs. Fast shutter speeds are likely to produce such effects, especially if the X-sync comes a bit too late in the timing. This would point towards a flaw in the timing between lens' copal shutter and triggering the x-sync. This is at least true for Hassy backs and could be valid for Leaf backs as well (just a guess).

    Regards,
    Udo

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Paul

    I can not say anything for LEAF or PHASE backs , as I use a HASSELBLAD
    CFV-39 back .
    When I use my back on a HASSELBLAD body , I have to set for proper sync mode . If I use the back with my ALPA , I must set the back for flash sync mode .
    I am shure other brands have similar settings .
    As the issue you experience is IMO a sync problem , you should check for correct sync setting as well .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    "ALPA , or other brands , has ever been sealed .
    They all were packed within a plastic bag in their original box . I think , this is normal" - thanks this is re-assuring.

    Yes there is a camera setting on the back, for leaf, one must select Large Format. This has been done and works fine with my LF gear, never a problem.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    I have seen this problem many times before. It is usually caused, as Yair and Doug have pointed out, by a lagging leaf shutter. It was fairly common with earlier Hasselblad V shutters and I have also seen it with shutters on Fuji, Rollei, and various flavour of technical camera lenses. It can be caused by weak springs, worn bearings, bent shutterblades, dried or gummy lubricants, corrosion, grit, and a raft of other gremlins.
    Bottom line is, your shutter needs a service and any techie worth his salt can sort it out for you.
    Really, your first port of call with these problems should be your dealer. Most are very helpful and will recognise the problem pretty smartly.
    Going straight to a public forum is probably not the best way of assuring you get great service next time you have a problem.
    Remember, you are dealing with professional grade gear here, so the support system behind it is pretty robust, despite how a few individuals carry on here.
    Nurture your relationship with your dealer - it's one of the most valuable support systems you can have.
    Best of luck getting it serviced and back in action.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Siebel ... you haven't met my dealer.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Really, your first port of call with these problems should be your dealer. Most are very helpful and will recognise the problem pretty smartly.
    Going straight to a public forum is probably not the best way of assuring you get great service next time you have a problem.
    Cheers,
    well - finding a prompt answer here from you and others involved in 'group sourcing' the problem seems to indicate otherwise - he has a consensus answer that he can take back to dealer as first thing to consider. that is valuable.
    It also means others are educated when they see a similar problem on their backs, so here's one vote for posting the issue, and (hopefully) finding an answer online.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    This looks like a bad case of pinky poohs...

    I would not necessarily conclude that it is a shutter drag issue - yet.

    before concluding that there is a problem with the shutter on your lens - and there may well be..


    double check what sync setting you are using when the back is attached to the Alpa/Rodenstock

    I cant remember what the correct setting is for a Leaf back - occassionaly I would get such results with the Leaf back and I can tell you when I used to use an H3D11-39 back I got similar results at times as well

    One issue to consider is wether your back needs a wake up call before making the shot - I fixed all the pinky poohs issue when I read a tech article on the Alpa site regarding the wake up issue

    you need ot make sure that the back is awake and has flushed and is ready and then you make the shot during the awake period flushed and ready period on a tech camera - other wise you will get some shots ok and some shots not depending ..

    So in the correct mode for your back - check that you are allowing enough time for the back to wake up and get the sensor ready for the next shot and make sure you shoot the next shot in between this get ready get set go time ..when using on a tech camera

    sorry I cant give you exact procedure with Lef it has been a few years since I used a 75. However to use a hassleblad back you must trigger the back and then trigger the shutter - otherwise you get this issue.

    If all this is fine- then worry about the lens - the easiest way to check this is to find another lens and try that if you have the same problem - it isnt the lens.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    By coincidence, I just read that article that Peter mentions on the Alpa website and it's here: http://www.alpa.ch/en/glossary/photo...-the-alpa.html But I think that the article says this is not an issue with backs that have Dalsa sensors, though your flawed images sure look like what is shown there as examples of the problem.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    It also means others are educated when they see a similar problem on their backs, so here's one vote for posting the issue, and (hopefully) finding an answer online.
    I agree with this logic completely. This is not a case of going public with a non-issue or an attempt to trash a brand. It's a legitimate problem and the kind of thing more experienced members might be able to help with. With due respect, I don't think the OP should be chastised for posting this.

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Looks like a sync issue to me too. I shoot both Phase & Leaf backs with my Alpa and can get a similar looking image with the Phase back if I mess up the wake/sync cycle using my KG cable. The Leaf back has never been a problem, especially since it only needs a sync cable and no wake up.

    The fact that some frames look good and some are off suggests the shutter or perhaps sync problems with the cable/back. Perhaps the back isn't triggering consistently with they sync pulse? Even though the lens is new it really could be a shutter problem as mentioned by Yair & Doug - even though an item may be perfect when tested at the factory they can fail early in their operating life for a variety of reasons. (For example, my DF shutter just literally exploded this week even after just coming back from Phase One service )

    Setting the Leaf to LF mode is correct btw as Paul has done.
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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    This looks like a bad case of pinky poohs...

    I would not necessarily conclude that it is a shutter drag issue - yet.

    before concluding that there is a problem with the shutter on your lens - and there may well be..


    double check what sync setting you are using when the back is attached to the Alpa/Rodenstock

    I cant remember what the correct setting is for a Leaf back - occassionaly I would get such results with the Leaf back and I can tell you when I used to use an H3D11-39 back I got similar results at times as well

    One issue to consider is wether your back needs a wake up call before making the shot - I fixed all the pinky poohs issue when I read a tech article on the Alpa site regarding the wake up issue

    you need ot make sure that the back is awake and has flushed and is ready and then you make the shot during the awake period flushed and ready period on a tech camera - other wise you will get some shots ok and some shots not depending ..

    So in the correct mode for your back - check that you are allowing enough time for the back to wake up and get the sensor ready for the next shot and make sure you shoot the next shot in between this get ready get set go time ..when using on a tech camera

    sorry I cant give you exact procedure with Lef it has been a few years since I used a 75. However to use a hassleblad back you must trigger the back and then trigger the shutter - otherwise you get this issue.

    If all this is fine- then worry about the lens - the easiest way to check this is to find another lens and try that if you have the same problem - it isnt the lens.
    You're wasting your time here Pete as Leaf backs do not need any wake-up sequence. If the back is set to Large Format all it does is wait a signal from the lens.
    Unless there's a problem with the pc socket on the lens or the cable os worn (the latter is unlikely as otherwise it would fire at all) then I'm 100% sure it's the shutter

    The easiest way to analyse it is to try another lens/ shutter at the same speeds

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    yeah - of course you are correct Yair - and it isn't the only thing I liked about my 75 either! best colour 'out of the box' by far.... IF only it worked on the Afi...

    oh well there is always the next one..

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Yair, Doug,
    ... I've just tested 35 shots with a new metz cable I had bought and all were consistent. The higher speeds don't seem to register properly under tungsten lighting...
    Further testing with the new cable in daylight shows that an additional 13 shots (so now 48 in total) have no magenta issue. I pushed the ISO and went to 1/500 at f11 as well as adjusting the focus over the shots. Note the back at most records 1/25s. The exposures seemed to correctly track 1 stop changes.

    Thankyou Yair, you were spot on within minutes of my post, which was (for me) late on Sunday evening - Case closed

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    Re: Weird issue with Alpa + DM/Leaf back and new Rodenstock 90

    I want to say that after a string of problems (actually this lens issue was just the cable), I totally lost faith in my dealer (whom I have known for maybe 3 years or more) and was beyond "frustration and disappointment", well into "angry". Some of the comments on here were adding fuel to the fire, so I shut up, closed the page and escalated the problems to Alpa directly. Alpa (including the distributor based in China) are working hard to put things right at this very moment.

    I don't know what advice to give in such a situation, I feel a dealer whom I trusted, has abused that trust and let me down in a big way. Thankfully Alpa have stepped in.

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