Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Want a Leica MF Kit?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Some you might find this worthy of some discussion:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...3401#post43401

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Rob,
    Not sure where you and others would like this discussion to take place....here in the MF forum, or in the R forum. Anyway, here are some thoughts.

    It remains unclear to me where Leica plans to fit into the landscape at this point. If they are not willing or able to compete against Nikon, Canon and others on the 35mm DSLR front, and trying to hit the expected marks there for AF, fps speed, high-ISO, etc., and they attempt to cross into the MF world, what can/will they offer? First, the idea of a sensor just a bit larger than present 36x24 for 35mm format seems like a bit of a non-starter. If that is merely to allow use of their older R glass, it seems like a bit of a waste. That glass may be great, but if they are not going to field a camera that really is in line with the original glass design and capabilities, they appear to be heading for a new disaster, IMHO. They could use the R glass and design a non retrofocus device with no mirror box, using live view instead to get the most from the closer image circle of the present lenses. That may be interesting, and capable of being somewhat compact, but it probably would be more like a MF point and shoot, but really hard to work. Manual focus on a device without a real viewfinder or ground glass just seems problematic for all but studio or tripod work.

    Then there is the issue of ability to even build and service a MF camera. Would somebody else be making the body for them?

    The other prospect for Leica getting into MF is because it is already a smaller/niche market with premium glass and output expectations, would be to create a completely new camera body and new glass. That does nothing for the existing R glass owners, but by striking out to a new format, they would only need to offer a more limited line of glass to fewer places. This could be doable, but they would really need to show that what they have is at least as good, if not better than what Hasselblad, Phase/Mamiya, Sinar/Leaf/Rollei are now putting into the market. And prices for those kits are becoming more affordable at the lower end, which is where Leica would have to start competing. (If they jump in with a $50K rig at 50-60MP and 3-4 potential lenses, they may have few takers to start, as there is a lot of great stuff available now in that niche.)

    Really not looking to throw cold water on any ideas or efforts that Leica may bring forward. They would need to significantly improve product availability, QC, and service over what they did with the M8 when it was introduced to a waiting and hungry market. Leica has no real track record in MF, so whatever they may bring forward would have to be either very innovative and super high quality and at a price that is competitive with others in the market space, or it may just be an interesting collector item.

    I think they have the knowhow to make some really outstanding stuff, and they have done so for a long time. They have lost some of their gleam with the rough starts of the R series and the M8, so they would really need to hit one out of the park with respect to features, capabilities, options, serivce and performance with outstanding image capture. They could do this, but at what cost?

    Just some thoughts to push this discussion along. I would love to see them do something really cool, like a compact body with both focal plane and leaf shutter capabilities in a simple switch. Having ISO 50-800 super clean and boosted to 1600 or so. Put out 4-6 new lenses with AF and their legendary optical quality and imaging. Handle as easily as a DSLR, but deliver like a top end MF rig. Lots of wishes. Will be interesting to see what, if anything comes of it.

    LJ

  3. #3
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    The 'larger than 35mm' comment *might* just mean a switch to a 4:3 ratio, using the same image circle. I don't think anything useful will come out of this thread. Let's just wait for some official announcements.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    foto-Z,

    No problems with that. Just thought some MF shooters might find the tidbit interesting. IF it is a true (and M.R. is a more credible source than most) MF body vs. a 'simple' tweaking of the 35mm format AND the price isn't too breath-stealing, it will mean more MFDB competition, which can only be good for everyone (shooters that is).

    I also agree that simply tweaking the existing format or expanding the sensor to the very edges of the existing image circle is a non-starter. All it will do is simply expose the weaker edges of any existing glass. With the trend towards stitching of 35mm frames, what does it buy anyone?

    What we may be seeing hints of is a Leica collaborating on a new MF system with Jenoptic and ____? with a multi-branded system using Leica glass.

    Anyway, no worries if the thread dies a quick death, just found it interesting that MR was very specific about it being a medium format kit coming - at some point and that most existing rumors were, well, baseless.
    Last edited by robmac; 7th August 2008 at 12:28.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Graham,
    Not disagreeing with you. It is pure speculation on most of our parts. Folks that may know cannot talk, and the rest of us put up wish lists. I do think it interesting to discuss what "could" be a direction that might attract a segment of the market, as none of the present players have it all figured out and packaged up themselves either at this point. If the goal of Leica is to grab existing MF customers, good luck to them. If the goal is to drag some present 35mm DSLR customers into a new niche they create, they may have some possibilities. Just as the 4:3 format ratio you mention. Doing just that may not be enough, unless the image capture is better than what Canon and Nikon already have, and if it does not have the other DSLR features folks have come to use, what is the point? One can already get there with almost any entry point MF rig for a lot less money than Leica will want to extract from customers.

    We will all know soon enough what, if anything is brought forward. I guess the question then becomes "What could interest you to consider Leica for 35mm/MF gear?"

    LJ

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I guess the question then becomes "What could interest you to consider Leica for 35mm/MF gear?" LJ
    A full frame M9.

    Other than that, probably nothing.

    Can't imagine Leica competiting with Zeiss or Schneider for MF optics.

    However, I can imagine what the service nightmare would be for a complex up-sized MF back or capture device would be.

    Whatever it is, I'm sure the Sultan of Brunei will order one ... in gold

  7. #7
    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Studio City, CA
    Posts
    700
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    18

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Hmmm... last time I opened up Lightroom, it sure looked to me like Leica ALREADY had a better image quality than Canon or Nikon.... <Grin>.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Hmmm... last time I opened up Lightroom, it sure looked to me like Leica ALREADY had a better image quality than Canon or Nikon.... <Grin>.
    He he . I was careful NOT to say Image Quality, but instead image capture. Not disagreeing that the M8 or DMR files have more for their given pixels than the others are offering, but capturing those pixels is not the same (higher ISO, faster fps, better AF, reliable AWB, etc.).

    Like Marc, I feel there is little that Leica can offer right now that would attract my attention. Maybe the FF M9 idea, but that may be a stretch also. As for a "MF" rig that may have a nothing more than a 4:3 format sensor.....well, it would still need about 20-30MP, work at much higher and cleaner ISOs than what the DMR or M8 presently struggle with, and other things mentioned.

    LJ

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    My understanding is that they will bringing out an R body which can take the existign line of R lenses and a new body with a totally new range of lenses.
    I am waiting for the full frame M as well

  10. #10
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    As long as we're in the MF forum, I was out shooting my DMR this afternoon and have to say that the LCD is far better than I've had on any MF back I've used. So much for the argument that the MF manufacturers can't put together an order for 200,000 of Nikon D3 type screens.

  11. #11
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    He he . I was careful NOT to say Image Quality, but instead image capture. Not disagreeing that the M8 or DMR files have more for their given pixels than the others are offering, but capturing those pixels is not the same (higher ISO, faster fps, better AF, reliable AWB, etc.).

    Like Marc, I feel there is little that Leica can offer right now that would attract my attention. Maybe the FF M9 idea, but that may be a stretch also. As for a "MF" rig that may have a nothing more than a 4:3 format sensor.....well, it would still need about 20-30MP, work at much higher and cleaner ISOs than what the DMR or M8 presently struggle with, and other things mentioned.

    LJ
    Yep, loved my DMR with it's mini-Imacon digital back ... note I said "loved" ... the times I could practically use the thing was so narrow it just became an indulgence.

    For my specific application arena, Canon and Nikon have delivered, every time, in every condition ... and for the most part they are getting better at it every year.

    My 31 meg MF camera has taken over all other location, AF, flash applications and rendered the 1DsMKIII redundant, so I sold it.

    Guess it's probably time to sell the last R lenses.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Already sold all of mine to Peter A who sold them all to another. Guess and hope they finally ended up in the hands of someone who loved, and USED them.

    Hope that I won't be sorry that I sold virtually all of the really exotic R lenses. Two of those 35-70 Elmarits, 15 Elmarit, 280 4.0, 180 2,0 etc are now "out there" and hopefully being used. While these are certainly collectors items, they are also some of the best optics ever..........and I mean ever. Sad they never became part of a system that made real shooting sense.

    All of that having been said.............bye, bye!!!! LOL

    Woody

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Like to see what they announce but right now my Phase system is doing EVERYTHING. I'm at another model event and shooting with a system that maybe should be shot with a Nikon but not me. My client saw 400 shots last night on screen and the comments are worth my efforts with the look of the shots. having back spasms shooting all day with this in hand but I'm out of shape too so my bad. I just love shooting this new 150 2.8. Honestly maybe the sharpest lens wide open i have ever seen. Something I really need as I am pushing the high ISO stuff. But my system just flat out works with not a glitch. Something to be said for that and all I shot for the last several years was Leica. Not sure I can say without a glitch there, far from it. I wish them luck and I am watching but getting money out of my pocket maybe tough. They have to have a winner. PERIOD
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #14
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    (...) Hope that I won't be sorry that I sold virtually all of the really exotic R lenses. (...) Sad they never became part of a system that made real shooting sense. (...)
    Didn't the R9/DMR system 'make real shooting sense' ?

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Yes, the DMR/R9 was a very good system but when Leica discontinued it with no replacement the issues which still remained with it were not going to get resolved. Thus not "part of a real shooting system." I think it is very sad (though understandable given the situation with jenoptik) since there was much promise for this approach to having both film and Digital in the same system.

    Woody

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    Didn't the R9/DMR system 'make real shooting sense' ?
    Sure, if you accepted the limitations and lack of any future update support. As a replacement for shooting a film R, it was dandy ... very good image quality in decent light. No TTL flash ability, no SDHC card ability, no firmware upgrades, slooooow start up, and so on ...

    Despite all that I liked it a lot, just not enough to keep all that money tied up in it compared to the money making AF DSLRs with dual card slots that take up to 16 gig CFs, excellent high ISO performance, and offer on-the-money TTL flash control.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    544
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Reichman said the other day to stay tuned. Kodak just drop the 49X37 9micron sensor. Dalsa is not pushing it either. The sensors size 44X33 went down in price immensely lately. Maybe they found their sweet spot for sensor production.

    This size fits right between typical medium format and 35. If this size is the sweet spot and production is easier and much cheaper, maybe this is the time for a true new format. The second one after 4/3. That new format Leica could be a dslr not much bigger than a 1Ds and not much more expensive. Now, glass would be a different story of course, both in price and performance.

    Eduardo

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Want a Leica MF Kit?

    Isn't 'inexpensive Leica' akin to 'military intelligence' or 'honest politician'?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •