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Thread: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

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    DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    a lot of people are upgrading their backs to get an IQ... so there's some refurb back available... (i still can't understand how all this photographers can afford to get an IQ180... in my area, it's just impossible for most of us..., but that's an other topic... ).

    So, if you were shooting architecture on a RM3D, ( and money is a concern )... and your shooting style requires around 30s exposure...
    will you go for
    i prefer leaf colors, but i don't have a lot of choice...

    DM33 (i don't like the ratio of the aptus II 10, and can't afford the 12)
    P45+ (long exposure for shure)
    P65+ (more recent, and bigger... for more money, i can't afford something more expensive than it ! )

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    As this forum is very much dominated by PHASE ONE and LEAF users , I daren't to mention what brand I use .
    I will give it a try anyway . I use a CFV-39 and CFV-50 digital back with my ALPA STC
    for architecture and I am very satisfied with the results .

    I use HASSELBLAD V-SYSTEM cameras as well as ARCA 6x9 F-LINE ORBIX + V-mount adapter and ALPA 12 SWA and STC .

    The CFV backs were the cheapest way into the digital MF world for me , as the above mentioned gear was already available (except STC) and there was no need for much additional gear .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Great! finally somebody that uses a CFV 50 back on an Alpa, I have been looking

    Even if you do not mention that back archivue, I hope it is ok if I ask a few questions....we would both use it for architecture....

    I am concentrating on trying to find a 2 lens setup with an Alpa STC and I am scratching my head when it comes to which back. Money is a big issue which makes it even tougher. I have been reading about Leaf 7 and think it could be a good match, but I have also been very interested in the CFV 50. However, it is difficult to find owner opinions.

    Can you get consistant results concerning focus with Alpa ground glass?
    Most important of everything - can you check focus after ther shot at 100% on the display?

    Please do tell us more what you like about it and what you don't like! It would be of great help!
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    As this forum is very much dominated by PHASE ONE and LEAF users , I daren't to mention what brand I use .
    I will give it a try anyway . I use a CFV-39 and CFV-50 digital back with my ALPA STC
    for architecture and I am very satisfied with the results .
    can you send me a picture took at around 30s or more ?

    how does phocus works with LCC and technical camera ? dust removal ? lens cast removal ?

    when i tried it years ago, the CFV 16 was horrible... and i hate H1 camera... so, i've stopped looking at hassy... maybe i should have a closer look to the CFV-50...

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    can you send me a picture took at around 30s or more ?

    how does phocus works with LCC and technical camera ? dust removal ? lens cast removal ?

    when i tried it years ago, the CFV 16 was horrible... and i hate H1 camera... so, i've stopped looking at hassy... maybe i should have a closer look to the CFV-50...
    As I am in the middle of moving to a new home , which is still partly under construction and 220km away from my old residence , I did not have much time to do any shooting with my CFV-50 . I just have it since a couple of days and other than formating a CF card and two simple test shots , I did not use it .

    The handling is exactly the same as with the CFV-39 : easy .
    LCC , dust removal and lens cast removal is simple in PHOCUS as it will surely be in C1 . Once you get used to it , it is fine , IMO .

    I dislike the H-System as well and as I do not need AF , my V-SYSTEM gear is an ideal and very reliable system to go together with my technical camera gear .

    HASSELBLAD Germany currently has a promotion program which gives me an additional 1240 € voucher . That is the first time in my life .
    Out of the product portfolio of my dealer , I can choose any product .
    I have choosen the ARCA D4 flip lock .
    All I now need is patience and time .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Member Jérôme.E's Avatar
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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    a lot of people are upgrading their backs to get an IQ... so there's some refurb back available... (i still can't understand how all this photographers can afford to get an IQ180... in my area, it's just impossible for most of us..., but that's an other topic... ).
    Here is one of the reason... Read... Not quite the same wage and comprehension of our work to compare with France, but anyway

    i'm a new user (7 months) of a leaf Aptus II 10 and for now I'm very satisfied. I first wanted a 4X3 factor (II 7) but got a very good price for the II 10, so went for it.
    I can crop anyway and get 48Mp 4x3. Not too much moiré, the II 7 seems to be more prone to it. But C1 handle it very well.

    I plan to get a Rm3D for October so i can't tell you about this back and a techcam.
    My biggest problem with Leaf is the 30s time exposure. Would love something around 2 minutes.

    Bon courage
    @+

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jérôme.E View Post
    My biggest problem with Leaf is the 30s time exposure. Would love something around 2 minutes.

    Bon courage
    @+
    it also depends on the based iso... on an aptus 22 it's 30s at 25 iso...

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    it also depends on the based iso... on an aptus 22 it's 30s at 25 iso...
    Sure... it may be complicated at "early" dawn and "end" sunset.
    Mine is 30s at 80 iso, a bit better but still not enough sometimes when bracketting at f/16.
    At 200 iso the II 10 can deliver pretty good images most of the time as far as you do a dark.

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    and you get in trouble when you need to make an LCC that require 1 or more stop...

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    ...and your shooting style requires around 30s exposure...
    ...DM33 (i don't like the ratio of the aptus II 10, and can't afford the 12)...
    The DM33 has a nice large sensor area and must surely be one of the best value backs around with superb detail but the most astounding thing for me has been lovely tonality, very similar to film in that it holds highlights well, suffering more in the shadows. The level of detail and the fact that the sensor is larger than others at this price point make it a good choice for wide angle architecture and interiors. I would hope it should leave plenty of spare $$ for other gear.
    Paul

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    I would buy the P45+ I only would go with the P65 if you need "wider" wide angles. Otherwise i think the P45 is the better choice, because as far as I know it does not have any kind of microlenses, which the P65 has. So when it comes to color cast the P45 is a lot better. The display is the same and the rest more or less as well. I would also prefer the longer exposure option with the P45. Sensor + is useless- Or at least for architecture work.

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I would buy the P45+ I only would go with the P65 if you need "wider" wide angles. Otherwise i think the P45 is the better choice, because as far as I know it does not have any kind of microlenses, which the P65 has. So when it comes to color cast the P45 is a lot better. The display is the same and the rest more or less as well. I would also prefer the longer exposure option with the P45. Sensor + is useless- Or at least for architecture work.
    P65+ doesn't get any kind of microlens. Sensor + CAN be very usefull for some works, even in Architecture.
    P65+ is surely the best choice... If you get the money.

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jérôme.E View Post
    P65+ doesn't get any kind of microlens. Sensor + CAN be very usefull for some works, even in Architecture.
    P65+ is surely the best choice... If you get the money.
    That's were the P40 comes in the game. Same quality as the P65 but much cheaper. Its cropper sensor is less limitating than on a DF camera thanks to the shift...

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    P40 is not an option for me, because i can't use stitching all the time so i will have to buy a larger lens... for the same price P40+ 28mm... i can have a P65...

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    As far as I know the p65 and all new backs from phase with salsa sensors have some type of microlenses. However, they are not the same type the p40 uses. I would day after using both backs the longer exposure can be alot more important than sensor plus.

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    As far as I know the p65 and all new backs from phase with salsa sensors have some type of microlenses. However, they are not the same type the p40 uses. I would day after using both backs the longer exposure can be alot more important than sensor plus.
    I don't know what kind of microlenses you're talking about, but for sure P40+, P45+, P65+ and all Leaf backs don't get the micolenses of some Kodak sensors or the ones into the P30+ that are not recommended for Techcam.

    Long exposure can be for sure more important than Sensor+... if you need it a lot and work mostly a night.
    In case you do not need to print XXL all times and have clients who are satisfied enough with 15Mp (I have some whom i work only with my D700) - or you simply like also walking around and shoot handheld away for the tripod and all the setup necessary... It's such a nice feature I miss with my Aptus

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    Hmm... I use the P65+ on an Rm3d for architecture. Have been doing so for 2 1/2 years. I used a P45+ before that. I don't really have any LCC issues that are more troublesome than they were with the P45+. I was just checking out some testing Jeffrey Totaro was doing this weekend as we were taking a break from teaching PODAS. I would suspect that what people see as greater Lens Cast issues on the P65+ versus the P45+ are actually due to the larger sensor reaching into further edges of the image circle. Once you hit the edge, you're gonna have issues no matter what sensor you're shooting.

    I love my P65+ but the P45+ is also very capable and does longer exposures. Both are amazing tools. I never do exposures longer than 12 seconds and like that my lenses are wider on the bigger chip, so I'm happier with the P65+.

    And that's all I have to say about that...

    Good luck Archie!

    Christopher Barrett
    (has made a few architectural images)

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    I don't have the time to find the Phase information directly, but here from optechs (phase one dealer)
    "* While the P40+/P65+ have micro lenses, they do not have the same wide angle limitations of older micro lens CCDs."

    From my experience P45/P65/IQ180 the P45 has less LCC problems when shifting realtive to the P65.

    The P65 works great, but if I would need to decide on a budget between the a P65 and Ü45 it would be the P45. I don't see any big advantages to the P65. The IQ backs are another matter, but more expensive.

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    Re: DM33 or P45+ or P65+ for architecture...

    I am an international architectural photographer and I happen to own a P45+, P65+, Aptus 12 and IQ180, so I will try my best to answer you questions, based on lots of real-world experience.
    I really like how the Leaf/Mamiya backs generally render architectural images. The profile is a little gentler than Phase backs render things. Generally, the highlight transitions are gentler and shadows are more open. This is what makes these back so awesome for portraiture.In architecture, this is particularly valuable with daytime exterior shots if you shoot in a location which has high-contrast daylight (most of Australia, California, Spain all come to mind). This generally holds true across the Leaf range, though my recent experience is confined to Aptus 65 and AptusII 12 backs.
    However, if you are shooting into twilight and beyond, then the 30second limit on long exposures can be a real handbrake. I find that in order to be shooting at my lenses optimal apertures (f8 -f11) I am more often than not in the 45-110 sec range.
    The P65+ is so far, my favourite back for architecture, though I think the IQ180 will take its place once we have a better LCC solution. It has a 1 minute "limit" on long exposures, which in practice, I very rarely hit. I have shot with it up to 90sec but with the use of frozen gel packs to keep the back cool. It's a bit of a pain, but it works. The advantage this back has over the P45+ is the slightly larger sensor area makes all my lenses just a little wider. When shooting interiors, you will need one lens in your kit that is seriously wide. [Yesterday, I was shooting a bathroom at the soon to be completed Grand Hyatt in Abu Dhabi with a Rodenstock 23HR on the Alpa and IQ180 and I was wishing I had a 21]. The P65+, because its sensor is larger and has smaller pixels than the P45+, exhibits greater lenscast colourshift than the P45+. However, as it remains within the correction range of the software LCC solution in C1, in the realworld, it is a non-issue. You have to correct every shot with the P45+ if using tech-cam wides anyway. Correct use of LCC gives you great files with both backs.
    This brings me to the P45+. If, as you suggest, you are not yet working at the high revenue end of the market, then I think this represents value that's hard to beat. It's well proven, is capable of longer exposures than you are likely to ever need (1 Hour if memory serves me) and is not a massive crop on the full-frame sensors. At current refurb prices, this is the back that I think offers the best ROI. I have kept my P45+ as my backup and also for that once-a-year shot that really needs long exposures.
    Note that I am not saying the P45+ is better than the P65+ for architecture - I am not. As you have indicated that cost is an issue, I think the better strategy from a business standpoint is to get the P45+ and make it earn your way to whatever your next back might be.
    Don't let anybody tell you there is no money in architecture photography. Pick your niche carefully, do great work and nurture your reputation and you can do pretty well.
    Best of luck.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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