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Thread: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

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    Smile Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    I'm looking at purchasing the above and would appreciate hearing of any experience with this combination. The lens has an image circle of 70mm and the diagonal on the P65+ is just a few mm less. That means little scope for shift, but I'm wondering about tilt/swing??

    Also looking at the Schneider 72mm Apo Digitar and the Rodenstock 150mm Apo Sironar S.

    Use will be landscape only - I like wides, macro and Helicon. Any thoughts welcome.

    Thanks!

    Rob

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    I am also interested in the information requested in this thread...so, let's hope there are many responses. Charles

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    If anyone has information on these lenses with an IQ180 and Arca Swiss RM3di I would hope to hear from you. Rob, I didn't mean to steal your thread and hope this is not too far from your post. Charles

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    for the 150 you will need the back spacer... a 150 on a P65+, not a lot of depth of field...

    Maybe a 120 digital is a better choice (needs a back spacer also !) !

    No lense between the 23 and the 72 ? you should go for the rodenstock 70 that offers more image circle in order to be able to stitch... like a lens in between... a 70 stitch is similar to a 45/50mm lens angle !
    Last edited by archivue; 20th July 2011 at 08:25.

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    Smile Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Thanks Archivue for the thought on the Rodenstock 70 with a larger image circle for stitching relative to the Schneider 72. I plan to use that lens for macro - any idea on the relative merits for that?

    Is no-one out there using the 23mm?

    Rob

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    It is early days but so far so good with my version of the 23mm on Sinar mount. I wouldn't recommend it be used for stitching given the 5-6mm play - on a 60 megapixel back you will have plenty of center of lens perfection to play with given all that resolution.

    I am trying out the CEF 70mm from Rodenstock and will probably pick up the 135mm as well.

    All will require the use of a white shading file as well as the Alpa correction software - especially for the 23mm.

    On my Alpa set up I prefer the Schneiders the 24mm requires the use of a center filter IMHO not so with the 35mm digitar which rocks on my Alpa.

    It has become rather common knowledge now that the 35mm Schneider combined with elephant gun sized backs delivers some issues - the reality is that any lens used on these 60 and 80 megapixel backs will give you more hassles in real world use than if you use a puny 33 megapixel back - which is why I prefer to stick with puny .

    but hey that's just one person's view and based only on my testing - other's may have different views and i don't wish to rock the boat in which the paradigm of more pixels are better is sitting.

    only because I reserve the right to change my mind as improvements to software and firmware continue to evolve for straight up DSLR stye shooting well choose yur weapon and platform.

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Quote Originally Posted by Robblakers View Post
    Thanks Archivue for the thought on the Rodenstock 70 with a larger image circle for stitching relative to the Schneider 72. I plan to use that lens for macro - any idea on the relative merits for that?
    Rob
    i have the 90 rod (similar design to the 70 i think... ) and the 120 rod macro digital... for small object both lenses are similar in quality... but for coins for example, the 120 is better...

    That 70 will be my next purchase...

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    On my Alpa set up I prefer the Schneiders the 24mm requires the use of a center filter IMHO not so with the 35mm digitar which rocks on my Alpa.

    It has become rather common knowledge now that the 35mm Schneider combined with elephant gun sized backs delivers some issues - the reality is that any lens used on these 60 and 80 megapixel backs will give you more hassles in real world use than if you use a puny 33 megapixel back - which is why I prefer to stick with puny .





    I just sold my puny 22 megapixel P25 and currently use P45+, P65+, Aptus12 and IQ180 elephant guns.
    Lets get some things straight - if you are using an ultra-wide lens from either Rodie or SK, you should be going through the LCC process as a matter of routine. There are no shortcuts nor free lunches if you expect quality images. The process with my elephant guns is EXACTLY the same as with my peashooter.
    The smaller the pixels, the bigger the colour shift with a given lens. The 28 and 35 XL's from Schneider are currently borderline to unusable with the 80MP backs, though this looks likely to change in the foreseeable future.

    The 23HR Digaron on the P65+, Aptus12 and IQ180 full frame sensors is very close to the edge of the image circle in the corners and there is noticeable but negligible sharpness falloff even at the "optimal" aperture range of f8-f11, even without shift. In practice, this has rarely bothered me, especially when shooting buildings outdoors. I regularly use 8mm or more of rise with this lens. Yes, this puts the corners outside the image circle, but in most cases, the two upper corners are filled with sky. A little retouching replaces the ugly corners and I suddenly have a 23 with more shift than recommended. There are no absolutes in photography. The end justifies the means.
    Away from the absolute edges, the performance of the 23HR Digaron with the 80MP backs on the Alpa STC is breathtaking. I noted to myself last Tuesday as was shooting a bathroom in the soon to be completed Grand Hyatt in Abu Dhabi that there was no other lens that would have allowed me to do the shot I was doing at the time.
    Cheers,

    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    I echo Bryan's comments about the 23mm. It doesn't have a lot of movement but what you can see is excellent.
    Rod
    US Representative, Arca-Swiss International
    R-Line Technical Cameras, Large Format View Cameras, Tripod Heads D4, D4m, P1, P0, Z1, Z2, C1 Cube.
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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    IMO the 23mm on both the P65+ and IQ180 makes a fantastic lens. I have used with and without the center filter. Your talking 2.5 stops vignetting without the center filter, with it less than a 1/2 stop. Slight distortion and even slighter softness at the edges.

    Nothing in the way of movements but several of my most popular images were taken with either the 23mm or 24mm.

    Totally forget the 24mm on the IQ180 but it works with the technical WA LCC in capture one very nicely on the P65+.

    The 72mm Schneider is an inexpensive (relatively) way to cover the standard view. It is sharp with good clarity. At least half of my photographs are taken with this lens. It stitches nicely and very little light falloff out to the edge of the image circle.

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Lets get some things straight - if you are using an ultra-wide lens from either Rodie or SK, you should be going through the LCC process as a matter of routine. There are no shortcuts nor free lunches if you expect quality images. The process with my elephant guns is EXACTLY the same as with my peashooter.


    what exactly are YOU trying to straighten ME up about? Mind your manners and read more carefully what people say - I have no axe to grind unlike you now do I?

    and just for your informaiton - teh world doesnt start and end at your local Phase One dealers shop front as far as photography goes.

    So we all agree that the elephant guns have issues on a tech camera employing ultra wides?

    even the mighty Phase One elephant gun - you know the one without live view?



    you guys crack me up.

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    you can also go for the new Schneider 60... it seems to be a really good lens !

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Lets get some things straight - if you are using an ultra-wide lens from either Rodie or SK, you should be going through the LCC process as a matter of routine. There are no shortcuts nor free lunches if you expect quality images. The process with my elephant guns is EXACTLY the same as with my peashooter.


    what exactly are YOU trying to straighten ME up about? Mind your manners and read more carefully what people say - I have no axe to grind unlike you now do I?

    and just for your informaiton - teh world doesnt start and end at your local Phase One dealers shop front as far as photography goes.

    So we all agree that the elephant guns have issues on a tech camera employing ultra wides?

    even the mighty Phase One elephant gun - you know the one without live view?



    you guys crack me up.

    Peter, I am sorry that you took this as a personal attack. It was most certainly not intended that way. My policy is simple - if I have an issue with something you say, I will take you on head-on but in a PM, not in open forum. If I have something to address directly to you in open forum, I will name you at the beginning of my rant ,as I have here
    (and yes, I am prone to ranting, I'll admit it).

    If I have an axe to grind, it is about half-truths and misconceptions that can get passed around amongst photographers. There is no sight more sorry than the blind leading the blind.

    The "lets get something straight" comment was not seeking to straighten you out about anything. You are fully entitled to your opinions, whether or not I , or for that matter anyone else here, happens to agree with you. That is what a discussion is all about and I think it is healthy. I did think that some people could take your comments to mean that somehow there is less work involved in correcting LCC with smaller sensors than with larger ones. I was seeking to point out that with both, the process is exactly the same. Perhaps I am not as eloquent as I should be. My remarks were aimed at all who play here.

    I did enjoy your taking the p*ss out of those of us with "elephant guns" and responded with my own "peashooter" comment. It's all in fun. For the record, I have just as much respect for the newbie with a second-hand peashooter as the person, pro or amateur, who has the blessing of an 'elephant gun". We're all photographers here, and all keen to improve our craft. My track record is clear on this - for example, here in Dubai, I regularly run free workshops that are open to any photographer, no matter what type of camera they use.

    I choose to use the cameras that I do, because I believe them to be the best currently available for the work that I happen to do, and I have always encouraged others to make their own judgements accordingly. I have at various points in my carreer owned and used Canon, Nikon, Kodak, Fuji,Rollei, Imacon, Leaf, PhaseOne, Hasselblad, Horseman, Sinar, Alpa, Cambo and Lord only knows what else. I put my money where my mouth is. If you have an issue with Phase One users, fine. That's your stuff, not mine.

    Yes, the new generation backs have issues with some lenses. I have been at the forefront of drawing attention to these issues and have taken it up both in public, and directly with the few people I am privileged to know personally who actually are involved in improving these things. I am also directly involved, on a purely voluntary basis, with extensive testing of various lens/back/shift combinations to hopefully speed up the process of resolving these issues. Does it somehow make you feel better to dump on these devices? I think you are a bigger man than that. We, as a community of photographers, have a responsibility to voice our concerns, but also to contribute to the advancement of all.

    So Pete, to you personally, and to anyone else who may have been offended by my remarks, I apologise unreservedly.

    I do intend to continue to post with neither fear nor favour.

    As I always say, in the end, it's all about the pictures.

    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Brian,

    Why are you making this personal - do you think you have a mortgage on experience with what works and what doesn't?

    What exactly are you disagreeing with anyway ? You seem to have sent a lot of time agreeing with the issue with me- yeah the elephant guns are flawed and second rate tech camera chips. Why - because too much of their real estate is wasted on a wide angle lens - so why pay for it if you are using a tech camera with movements and that is your purpose.

    Simple.

    So everyone should check out what works for them.

    Pete

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Getting Things Straight: I don't know personally either Pete or Brian, but I know they both have contributed much to this forum. I have read and reread the "Lets get some things straight" comments back and forth.....and I just don't see anything originally directed toward a specific person. If anything it appears directed to those of us who have much less experience on this forum. Let's move on...and thanks to both Peter & Brian for your contributions which are ALWAYS at risk of being mis-construed. It can be scary for those of us with less experience with this forum to dare to post at all lest it come out wrong or be mis-understood. I do think anyone who feels they have been "shot at" should use pm to smooth these wrinkles out. Charles

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    Getting Things Straight: I don't know personally either Pete or Brian, but I know they both have contributed much to this forum. I have read and reread the "Lets get some things straight" comments back and forth.....and I just don't see anything originally directed toward a specific person. If anything it appears directed to those of us who have much less experience on this forum. Let's move on...and thanks to both Peter & Brian for your contributions which are ALWAYS at risk of being mis-construed. It can be scary for those of us with less experience with this forum to dare to post at all lest it come out wrong or be mis-understood. I do think anyone who feels they have been "shot at" should use pm to smooth these wrinkles out. Charles
    Charles, I am very sorry that some might find the rough and tumble of forum play a little intimidating. It shouldn't be so. I would encourage you to speak your mind and ask even the silliest of questions. The whole point of being here is that you get to learn and grow. If you put something out there that's not right, someone will point it out - that's a healthy and rewarding experience. Misunderstandings are just part of life, and often quite silly in hindsight.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Peter,
    Thank you ever so much for your generous acceptance of my apology. You are all class.

    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post

    You seem to have sent a lot of time agreeing with the issue with me- yeah the elephant guns are flawed and second rate tech camera chips. Why - because too much of their real estate is wasted on a wide angle lens - so why pay for it if you are using a tech camera with movements and that is your purpose.

    Pete
    So, the 80MP sensors "are flawed and second rate tech camera chips". Wow, that sure is a big call. Firstly, I don't think there is a single manufacturer who makes a tech camera chip. I suspect the sensors are designed primarily for general photographic use and we are lucky they fit on our technical cameras. Currently, I know of only 2 lenses that can really be called problematic - the Schneider 28XL and 35XL. There are several parties currently working on resolving the issues and I remain optimistic that they will succeed. Both these 80MP backs are in fact awesome when you shoot with the right glass. This evening I shot some images of some historic ruins in Ras Al Khaimah with the IQ180 and 23HR Digaron on the Alpa STC and they are breathtaking. In fact, substantially better than my P45+ or P65+ can deliver. Second rate tech camera chip? Certainly not.

    I'm confused by what you mean by "too much of their real estate is wasted on a wide angle lens". How so? I compose my images with every bit of available real estate on the sensor. I hardly ever crop. If anything, Id like Rodenstock to make a 20mm HR Digaron. Now that would rock!

    "Why pay for it if you are using a tech camera with movements and that is your purpose?". Every individual will have different reasons. I make over 90% of my income shooting for my clients with a tech cam. I run an IQ180 on it because my tests indicate that this is simply the very best quality that money can currently buy for a tech cam. There is more resolution, better colour rendition, phenomenal dynamic range and sensational flexibility in the files.Just as importantly, the new screen and interface improve the usability on a tech cam massively.It is just so much easier and more pleasant to work with. Last week, I delivered a 2.5meter wide file at 300 dpi to a very fussy client. When their print arrived from the lab, they called me immediately to tell me it looked "breathtaking". Was the back worth it? You bet!

    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Rodenstock 23mm on Arca Swiss RM3di with P65+

    Brian - I think typing can be misleading sometimes.

    No need for apologies we are all big boys with common purpose and interest in the love of photography.

    I am disappointed in the 60 AND 80 megapixel chips as far as using them with movements goes - thats all. I think for this purpose they are flawed devices in that for me one doesn't get the bang for buck I expected to get.

    I apologise for any offense to anyone as well non meant.

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