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Thread: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

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    Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    All of the instructional data available for adjusting a tech camera for focus is biased towards finding focus at infinity. This, for sure, is the starting point. The adjustment process becomes more accurate by using longer lenses (100mm and beyond) but even that is limiting - the DOF is just too deep for an accurate focus adjustment.

    The shimming range for infinity adjustment can keep an intended target in focus easily within a 0.03mm deviation. When I used my 150mm lens I found that my target remained in focus with shims ranging in thickness from 0.10 to 0.13 - in fact I probably could have taken that to further extremes but didn't (it was 100 degrees that day). I could see where the focus line in the foreground moved within the shim range but my intended infinity target was always in focus.

    I found that after setting the infinity macro adjustment that focus adjustments could be fine tuned with the use of LensAlign and a Leica Disto D5 and, for Alpa users, HPF rings. The process is very simple and, to me, very accurate although it is very important to align the camera and the Lens Align tool properly. I measured my distance from the sensor plane to the LensAlign with the Disto and set my HPF distance to match (this happened to be around 6.5 feet for my 150mm). I started with my infinity shim range which added 0.10 to 0.13 shims to achieve infinity focus. My first shim adjustment which added 0.10mm to the standard Alpa shim resulted in a slightly back focused target. When adding shims to equal 0.13mm the focus shifted to slight front focus. All of this is very easy to see on the target at 100% pixels. The closest to dead on was achieved by adding a total of 0.11 shims. So, even though I had a range of 0.10 to 0.13 shim thickness that resulted in accurate infinity focus I was able to set focus more accurately for closer distances with the aid of LensAlign.

    All of this applies to using a Disto and HPF rings but could also be applied to a Cambo if enough helical distance markings are available. Live view will eliminate the need for this but live view isn't always easy to use and is a big time battery dis-charger. Regardless infinity focus, at a minimum, has to be set.

    Just thought I would pass this on to anyone who might be interested.

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Interesting. Have you now tested other lenses to see if this shim setup works for them?

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Victor,

    I love it that you used a Disto to measure 6.5 feet. Not having one, I'd probably use a tape measure. Of course, to put the shimmed camera to use, you'd need a Disto to measure distances.

    Steve

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    It is perhaps one advantage to the Arca system: once you find your offset for infinity, you apply the same offset to each helical reference number and your focus is spot on for all distances.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Guys

    I have a Cambo system which does not have this shimming process. Could someone please explain exactly what this shimming is doing. Is it calibrating the scale on your focus ring with the actual number of metres in reality or is doing a whole lot more?

    I would like to understand this a bit better.


    Thanks


    Mal

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Mal,
    Generally the shimming process is relative to Alpa's cameras. Yes, it basically calibrates the focus ring so it is precise. Traditionally it is done at infinity, probably because the infinity stop eliminates human positioning error when setting the helical. Focusing at infinity also ensures the back is not too far away, which would mean the lens would not be able to focus at infinity (the stop prevents the lens from moving in close enough).

    Arca solves this another way by incorporating an "offset" on the helical. Accomplishes the same thing just in a different way. I have not used a Cambo much, but I think those set screws in the adapter can be adjusted by the factory. Again, similar effect just done in a different way. And they would need your digital back...

    My problem with infinity is there just are not very many crisp air days in the midwest during the summer! Too much heat and haze to evaluate an image of something 1 mile away.

    Dave

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    i have stewed over this. My conclusion is that when your lens is set on the inf end stop, you may need to shim the back (or the lens) so that far objects are in accurate focus, determined by test shots and peeping. This involves some very small distances, a shim thickness of 0.01mm being the smallest increment Alpa uses.

    after that, you are at the mercy of the distance accuracy (and resolution) of both the calibrated focus ring, the helicoid, and how you measure your subject, with the last being the least accurate, in general.

    What usually happens with a focus ring is that your measured subject distance falls in between the focus markings, here the HPF rings are very handy, as they give a measurement at every 5 degrees and each tick mark spaced at every 1 degree. So for example, the 70mm HPF ring has distances marked at 5.30', 6.21', 6.57', 6.97', 7.43'...with five ticks between each of those readings spaced about 1 mm between tick marks on the barrel. The stock 70mm lens ring has readings at 4', (then about a 19mm spacing) 5' (then about a 30mm spacing), 10'.

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Dear Mal,

    Yes, it is basically doing this, "calibrating the scale on one's focus ring" by adjusting the right distance between sensor and lens at a given target distance. In other words, make sure that when one focuses on a point the focus is really at the set point, e.g. at infinity. It is a alignment which can be done in one way or the other, a + or - alignment, bringing the sensor closer or further away. This is done by the so-called shims, in 1/100th of mm steps.

    But it does even more, since it is possible to offset also a possible sensor un-flatness on its sensor-board: this happens more than one might be aware, either in a vertical way, or then horizontally, and as well in the diagonal. Shimming can be done the same way, in all directions, or on only part of the plane (e.g in one corner).

    There is a nice video by Paul Slotboom (Optechs Digital), explaining this in detail, here:

    Alpa adjustable digital back adapters

    As well as a Alpa review done by Michael Reichmann, explaining the shimming and its importance, here:

    M. Reichmann "Alpa Review" - Importance of a Well Aligned Sensor

    Best regards
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Guys

    I have a Cambo system which does not have this shimming process. Could someone please explain exactly what this shimming is doing. Is it calibrating the scale on your focus ring with the actual number of metres in reality or is doing a whole lot more?

    I would like to understand this a bit better.


    Thanks


    Mal
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    One might think that sensors are flat, but really, after processing, the wafers that they are cut from resemble potato chips although of course to a much smaller degree.
    Sensors are cut (or scribed and broken depending on the fab) from the wafer so each sensor resembles topographically a rectangle cut from a potato chip. Now they might be the flattest thing that you own, but they are not really flat. There is a sub-micron curvature that will not be improved by shimming. 1/100 of a mm is also far too course an adjustment for the kind of curvature I am speaking about. I suspect that there is no significant photographic issue related to the curvature but I thought I might describe it so that folks can have nightmares about it.
    -bob

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Bob, thanks for this picturesque sight.

    I will from now on have a different (angle of) view when eating potato chips!



    But right, effectively that (a sub-micron curvature) cannot be improved by shimming, BUT is also not of an issue. Only the flatness or lack of parallelity of the sensor due to a wrong or inaccurate assembly is of relevance.

    Best
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    ... each sensor resembles topographically a rectangle cut from a potato chip.
    -bob
    Last edited by Thierry; 5th August 2011 at 04:03.
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    Interesting. Have you now tested other lenses to see if this shim setup works for them?
    All of my lenses, thankfully, agree with my initial calibration.

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Victor,

    I love it that you used a Disto to measure 6.5 feet. Not having one, I'd probably use a tape measure. Of course, to put the shimmed camera to use, you'd need a Disto to measure distances.

    Steve
    Yes.... the Disto is very necessary for using the HPF rings. This combination is very fast and accurate.

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    except for inf, sensor planarity is of no impact, unless or course, you are trying to focus on an exact plane

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Victor, very thoughtful and useful information.

    Bob, I've licked my sensor and pretty sure mine was cheese and onion flavoured.

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    I've had no problem with the Alpa. Alpa recommends that you adjust the shims with your widest lens (in my case a 35mm xl) because it has the narrowest depth of focus. .01mm actually makes a visible difference. Having shimmed for the 35 my other lenses (47xl and 72 xl) are dead on.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Woody,

    That's interesting. My Alpa back/adapter was calibrated by my dealer using my *longest* lenses. So in my case it was with my 90 HRW initially and then the SK 150.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Alpa recommends that you adjust the shims with your widest lens (in my case a 35mm xl) because it has the narrowest depth of focus.
    This is incorrect. Alpa specifically recommends that the 24XL and 35XL not be used for adapter calibrations. This information is available on their site.

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    my camera system is Cambo and my lenses have the T/S mount. the standard focus rings suck. So i bought alpa HPF rings for the 70 and 43, which or course don't work, as they interfere with the T/S knobs, otherwise seems to be good. A tip for you cambo fans.

    However, I think I found a way to mod my T/S knob and the rings so they will work together, so far for the rodie 70, at least.

    by the way, for $300 bucks or so, those HPF rings are extremely well made and seem a very good deal

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Dave and Thierry in particular


    Thanks for the info on the shimming process. I have been to the Alpa site and it is starting to make sense.

    John (jlm) as a Cambo user I also feel the focus ring leaves room for improvement - is the HPF ring just an interferance fit over the Cambo (SK or Rodenstock) focus ring? ie just a way of having a scale to work off.

    thanks in advance


    mal

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    the HPF ring simply breaks down the markings into a much, much finer scale. I clamps right around the existing focus ring

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Mal,

    There are details about the rings, as well as an installation video here: http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lense...schneider.html

    Steve

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    If you get the very latest HPF rings they also come with extra stubs that aid with quickly recognizing the position of the ring and also make it easier to turn with your fingers.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    For landscape shooting I guess infinity is the best calibration target. For anything less than infinity it may not be - precisely because of what Bob mentioned above.

    Now the more resolution you have in your back - the greater the problem you may have - regarding getting the very best possible resolution possible..

    from a practical point of view- each new lens introduces more measurement error potential - so yes Bob again in jocular form id correct.

    My personal solution is to purposefully limit the amount of resolution I care to use - the lest of my concern being issues to do with focusing

    Also I like using a glass and loupe for closer focusing purposes - as in all things there are compromises to be made and work arounds - shooting at F11 gives one a fair amount of real world latitude

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    This is incorrect. Alpa specifically recommends that the 24XL and 35XL not be used for adapter calibrations. This information is available on their site.

    Victor
    Thanks - I missed that. There doesn't seem to be a problem but I'll take a close look next week.

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Woody,

    You can find that information at http://www.alpa.ch/en/glossary/photo...gital-use.html.

    Victor

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    I just want to intervene to add some details about the right lens(es) to take for shimming.

    An ideal focal length would be around 70mm, e.g. the Schneider Apo-Digitar 5,6/72mm L

    It is correct that the short focal length lenses are not ideal for shimming, because they are not corrected for "flatness".

    Short focal length lenses, although these are very sensitive to the position of the sensor, respectively to the focus, make it difficult to judge the focus differences at infinity

    The longer focal length, understand above 100mm, make it as well difficult to shim correctly, because they are less sensitive to focus differences with a few 1/100th differences.

    Thierry
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post

    The longer focal length, understand above 100mm, make it as well difficult to shim correctly, because they are less sensitive to focus differences with a few 1/100th differences.

    Thierry
    Thierry,

    This makes no sense to me. I could see the focus line move when using my 150mm lens and the thinnest shim possible (0.01) when focusing for infinity. In fact when I fine tuned with a lensalign for shorter distances the 0.01 shim proved to be too thick to REALLY fine tune the focus.

    Victor

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Victor, certainly, you are right here. Nevertheless, it is simply not as obvious and easy as with a lens in the focal range of around 70mm.
    In any case, we do not recommend to go higher than 100mm.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I could see the focus line move when using my 150mm lens and the thinnest shim possible (0.01) when focusing for infinity.
    Victor
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Thierry:

    the advice seems to be to set the shims based on focus at inf. Any reason not to to it at some intermediate distance that could be accurately measured and accurately set to the right lens marking? like 10 meters, for example?

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Thierry:

    the advice seems to be to set the shims based on focus at inf. Any reason not to to it at some intermediate distance that could be accurately measured and accurately set to the right lens marking? like 10 meters, for example?
    The only 100% accurately repeatable stop is the hard stop at infinity so using some other setting on the lens introduces error. You just can't set the lens to an incremental stop with perfect accuracy. Once the back is calibrated at infinity however the accuracy of the HPF rings is quite remarkable ... especially at close distances such as 10 meters.
    wayne
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Wayne --

    That sounds logical, but what if the infinity stop isn't set correctly, so the lens, when hard against the stop, either back- or front-focuses. Or maybe it's a very hot or cold day, so the lens has expanded or contracted.

    It seems that a better reference might be a fixed and repeatable point near the rotational center of the lens helix. Perhaps with the aid of an added vernier scale and a tape or laser rangefinder.

    Then, as Jack pointed out, whatever rotational offset is best at this reference point can be applied at other distances.

    Seems there may be more to it than meets the eye.

    Dave.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    The point about front/back focusing is certainly valid but really the best solution to accomodate for that is to have your lenses adjusted correctly in the first place. My SK 47XL APO Digitar had a very slight back focus at infinity and my dealer (Paul @ Optechs) was able to adjust it using their collimator. This made it possible to ensure that all my lenses work the same and that no adjustment factor needs to be applied to each one.

    Btw, it is much more convenient to have the infinity hard stop - one of the challenges I have with my 35 XL is that it doesn't have a hard stop at infinity as it has to allow for lens curvature. With the infinity stop it's easy to quickly set the lens for focus distance without having to look around or down at the lens.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by delled View Post
    Wayne --

    That sounds logical, but what if the infinity stop isn't set correctly, so the lens, when hard against the stop, either back- or front-focuses. .
    If infinity is incorrect, then so are all of the other measured points on the lens. In addition you are trying to adjust the sensor to a tolerance of .01mm (theoretically at least) ... I don't think you repeat that accuracy with any other point on the lens. The only possible way to use another point on the lens would be to lock it down so it could not move at all between the various tests.

    But then it is quite possible you have set yourself up for a situation where infinity is no longer in focus ... you may easily bias your sensor for front or back focusing if you choose to calibrate with some other distance.
    wayne
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    ... I don't think you repeat that accuracy with any other point on the lens.
    Yes, exactly. According to the Alpa distance tables, the helicals move the lens about 30 microns per degree of rotation (Rodi's a little more, SK's a little less). So each minor tick mark on the hpf ring is about a 0.03 shim. I don't know about your eyes, but even using a loupe to stare at the hpf ring it is tough for me to divide those 1 degree marks into thirds for the shimming process down to 0.01mm.

    As long as you have a good clear infinity view, it seems more robust to use the infinity stop. The key for me is to start "under-shimmed" so I know which direction I need to go.

    Dave

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Mal,

    There are details about the rings, as well as an installation video here: http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lense...schneider.html

    Steve
    Steve

    Have you seen these rings fitted to lens used on a Cambo camera?


    Mal

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    If infinity is incorrect, then so are all of the other measured points on the lens.
    Wayne,

    Even with long lenses an infinity target will remain in focus with numerous shim thicknesses resulting in either back or front focus. Infinity, by itself, is not an accurate enough visual measurement for correct shimming. Focus accuracy can be enhanced by close focus calibrating as I mentioned in previous posts. Obviously the only 'true' way to determine correct focus is with live view..... and even that can be tricky.

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    reason I asked was that in the 10 foot range, with a 70mm lens, a +/- distance measurement delta of .9 ft, or 11", (9.3ft and 10.2ft) represents five degrees lens rotation (taken off the HPF scale)

    however near infinity, 97ft and inf represent 5 degrees lens rotation.

    I would think we want the smallest image distance delta per degree of lens rotation to set shims accurately, assuming of course the HPF scale is right on (and we have to, right?) and we can accurately measure the distances

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Dear John,

    There is no other reason than a practical and financial one to do this at infinity.

    Of course one can do this at any distance. Alpa does the shimming for instance at 2-3 meters, allowing therefore to do it inside and not be dependent of the weather. But then it needs special tools like a laser-pointer and a special target telling how much to shim. Also, a special lens is used, calibrated for a distance of 2 m and a maximum opening of f 2.2.
    This equipment costs a couple of thousands CHF.
    This makes no economical sense for a photographer, therefore the solution to shim at infinity. In any case, we do as well a test at infinity, once the back has been shimmed at 2 m.

    Best regards
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Thierry:

    the advice seems to be to set the shims based on focus at inf. Any reason not to to it at some intermediate distance that could be accurately measured and accurately set to the right lens marking? like 10 meters, for example?
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    That's another reason, to do it at infinity. However, one can imagine a setup where one focuses the lenses at a certain distance on the scale/HPF ring (e.g. on the 10m mark) and then not longer touch this focus, while doing the shots and checking/shimming, until the focus is at the correct place, like you said it bellow.

    Also, doing it at infinity or at any other distance, there is of course a pre-condition, as mentioned by Graham already: to have adjusted lenses.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    If infinity is incorrect, then so are all of the other measured points on the lens. In addition you are trying to adjust the sensor to a tolerance of .01mm (theoretically at least) ... I don't think you repeat that accuracy with any other point on the lens. The only possible way to use another point on the lens would be to lock it down so it could not move at all between the various tests.

    But then it is quite possible you have set yourself up for a situation where infinity is no longer in focus ... you may easily bias your sensor for front or back focusing if you choose to calibrate with some other distance.
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Victor,

    That's true, that infinity is not a measurable distance, and that's why Alpa gives a infinity distance = 20 x Focal Length in Meters. That's the minimum which should be taken for infinity, when calibrating the back.
    I have seen photographers using simply the focal length in meters.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Infinity, by itself, is not an accurate enough visual measurement for correct shimming. Focus accuracy can be enhanced by close focus calibrating as I mentioned in previous posts.
    Victor
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    Victor,

    That's true, that infinity is not a measurable distance, and that's why Alpa gives a infinity distance = 20 x Focal Length in Meters. That's the minimum which should be taken for infinity, when calibrating the back.
    I have seen photographers using simply the focal length in meters.

    Thierry
    I love this. I think I'll call it Thierry's Theory: "Infinity has no end, but we know where it starts."

    Made my day!! Thank you Thierry!

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    I Love it!

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Calling it "Alpa's Theory" would suffice for my happiness.



    But yes, it's a good definition.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    I love this. I think I'll call it Thierry's Theory: "Infinity has no end, but we know where it starts."

    Made my day!! Thank you Thierry!
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    Of course one can do this at any distance. Alpa does the shimming for instance at 2-3 meters, allowing therefore to do it inside and not be dependent of the weather. But then it needs special tools like a laser-pointer and a special target telling how much to shim. Also, a special lens is used, calibrated for a distance of 2 m and a maximum opening of f 2.2.
    Thierry,

    This sounds a lot to me like the OP!! How about that....I just ballparked infinity (which is all you can do) and then fine tuned for close distance and I didn't have to have a special lens or spend a couple thousand CHF. All I needed was a Disto and a LensAlign. Thank you for substantiating my hypothesis

    Victor

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Victor,

    That sounds fine, no problem with that. I was speaking how we do it, in a way that can be repeated, with the same lens, the same distance, the same target, thus excluding as much variables as possible, and how we recommend to do it without any additional cost.



    Best regards
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Thierry,

    This sounds a lot to me like the OP!! How about that....I just ballparked infinity (which is all you can do) and then fine tuned for close distance and I didn't have to have a special lens or spend a couple thousand CHF. All I needed was a Disto and a LensAlign. Thank you for substantiating my hypothesis

    Victor
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Longer Arca R lenses -- at least my 70mm and 120mm -- are marked on the back of the lens board with a sticker: "~ = 2Km". I take this to mean that they have been calibrated for infinity (extension = 0) at 2km. No marking appears on my 43mm lens.

    Dave.

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    I loved this, so am tempted to make a connection between infinity and eternity and equate distance and time:

    "Eternity is really long, especially near the end" - Woody Allen

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by rga View Post
    "Infinity has no end, but we know where it starts."
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Victor, very thoughtful and useful information.

    Bob, I've licked my sensor and pretty sure mine was cheese and onion flavoured.
    That explains the orange color cast I've been getting ....... My new 180 is BBQ flavored!

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    Re: Tech Camera Focus Fine Tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    I loved this, so am tempted to make a connection between infinity and eternity and equate distance and time:

    "Eternity is really long, especially near the end" - Woody Allen

    Thierry
    Have to go see his new movie; his "photography" is always stunning in his later films.

    Great quote: thanks!

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