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Thread: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

  1. #51
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Guy, now now, don't let practicality get in the way of an opportunity to buy some new toys for the camera!

    Btw, a baseball cap works pretty well too although it's tough to know exactly where to put it out of frame when you are shooting without the aid of live view or an accurate viewfinder. To be fair to the tech folks, it is much easier to manage flare manually with a DSLR.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Guy,
    SNIP
    it's tough to know exactly where to put it out of frame when you are shooting without the aid of live view or an accurate {SLR} viewfinder.
    BINGO!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  3. #53
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #54
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Jack it isn't big enough for the 32. It works fine with the 40, but i prefer the 4x5 version.
    Okay to clarify: The 32HR-W has an 86mm filter thread. I do not have one to measure, but I suspect the outer diameter of the lens barrel at the front is about 89mm across? The 111000 hood, is 88mm on the inside diameter of the square, or just shy of being able to slip over the outside of the 32 lens barrel. BUT, there is PLENTY of material there that 2-3mm could easily be ground off at the centers of each edge (or all the way around), opening up the overall diameter to 92-94mm and then it would work. Granted, it's an aftermarket fix, but certainly what I will do if I ever get a 32 HR -- a friend with a milling machine or even a 50mm drum sander in a drill press by hand. I even suspect if I mention this to Arca, they might make this simple modification to the hood at the factory going forward...
    Jack
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  5. #55
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay time for my rant:

    So here I sit in the maybe the brightest sun on the planet and you take a slow cam and make it even slower to work with when you have the best 5 finger hand tool on the planet your left hand and you leave that for playing what pocket pool. This is not working guys this is using shiny chrome ornaments on the hood of your car. Just sayin

    I never had flare in my life with the trusty hand tool.

    It just had to be said.
    I used to have a habit that would keep them occupied, but no longer.
    Today my wide brimmed Tilley hat worked fine but a very wide might be more difficult. I am pretty sure that if I cut out the crown that it would work for the 32mm with no difficulty.
    -bob

  6. #56
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    For 600 dollars I'll make you all custom cardboard shades blacked out with a fake wood grain grip holder. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #57
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Sometimes you just need focus stacking. 6 image stacked. 25mm of rise, reaching close to the edge of the image circle of my SK APO 120 N on my Alpa Max + IQ 180. I'm going back to reshoot this - this was my first day with the 120 and I'm a few steps short of having it optimized. (For example I measured the distance to the street lamp but because it's off axis the measurement was subject to focus-recompose error, which is very visible at 1:1.)

    For the 120mm at f16 the resolution decline as you move out the image circle is very gentle until it gets dark at around 100 mm diameter.

    For our leaders - is there some way that we could collect in depth reactions to tech camera lenses? There are a lot of technically skilled tech camera users on this forum and I'd love to see their thoughts collected in some usable way. this would be a unique resource.


  8. #58
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    By the way I have my own copy of Guy's hand shade. Always available. One less thing to pack.

  9. #59
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I have been reported by one of the mods. For my custom made cardboard shade. Been reported I am a scammer,spammer and down right unethical on price gouging. Okay there right, the grip is 1960's vinyl wood grain from my families old couch.

    Btw in a pinch you know that color passport we all carry around, great shade as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #60
    Member LonnaTucker's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    A good shade is part of a professional kit, and the plastic ones break. For comparison, have you ever priced a matte box?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Ma...8/N/4279260956

  11. #61
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Also and I have been doing this for years is use metal lens hoods that I get on e-bay and screw them into my lenses. And they also sell wide angle ones as well. I actually don't use any that come with my lenses since like Lonna said plastic ones usually break. So I use metal ones and also many times without caps . Makes for much faster lens changing. I started this with Leica lenses and carried this on to my MF kit.

    My bet these may work well with tech lenses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  12. #62
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I'm actually feeling a little insecure on the focus stacking issue.

    I've gone back and review the files that I stacked to get the above image. They are all beautifully sharp (where they are in focus) so the issue I'm having is not camera technique. In actual fact images of real landscape require extensive manual editing in of masks in Helicon Focus. There was no wind that I could discern in Central Park yesterday but the trees moved between images (actually quite a bit) and the clouds were moving quickly.

    With full sized IQ180 tiff exports (these guys are monsters) the editing in HF slows down to less than a crawl. I tried downsampling (to 22 megs) on export from C1, and editing worked fine, but of course this isn't a viable solution.

    I've tried the other OSX compatible focus stacking packages (including compbinezp, photoacute and the useless feature in CS5) and none of them come close to HF - they are essentially useless in a landscape context.

    The source of my insecurity is that we are dealing with a single vendor who has an unknown (to me) commitment to support Helicon Focus for likes of us.

    Of course no such issues with tilts.

  13. #63
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Also and I have been doing this for years is use metal lens hoods that I get on e-bay and screw them into my lenses. And they also sell wide angle ones as well. I actually don't use any that come with my lenses since like Lonna said plastic ones usually break. So I use metal ones and also many times without caps . Makes for much faster lens changing. I started this with Leica lenses and carried this on to my MF kit.

    My bet these may work well with tech lenses.
    The real issue with tech or view cams is with shifts -- you don't need to worry about that on a fixed lens camera. With shift however, you alter the relative position of the IC and light-path off axis, and so the hood position needs to change to suit that. So regular hoods simply are not a good choice as they cannot optimally adjust to more ideally block the light falling on the lens/sensor.
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    I'm actually feeling a little insecure on the focus stacking issue.

    I've gone back and review the files that I stacked to get the above image. They are all beautifully sharp (where they are in focus) so the issue I'm having is not camera technique. In actual fact images of real landscape require extensive manual editing in of masks in Helicon Focus. There was no wind that I could discern in Central Park yesterday but the trees moved between images (actually quite a bit) and the clouds were moving quickly.

    With full sized IQ180 tiff exports (these guys are monsters) the editing in HF slows down to less than a crawl. I tried downsampling (to 22 megs) on export from C1, and editing worked fine, but of course this isn't a viable solution.

    I've tried the other OSX compatible focus stacking packages (including compbinezp, photoacute and the useless feature in CS5) and none of them come close to HF - they are essentially useless in a landscape context.

    The source of my insecurity is that we are dealing with a single vendor who has an unknown (to me) commitment to support Helicon Focus for likes of us.

    Of course no such issues with tilts.
    Welcome to my "ah ha" moment of why I wanted tilts... As much as I like Helicon and as good of a product as it is, you simply cannot keep everything in a typical landscape image stationary enough to make it all come together. It works great on *some* static subjects if there is not a lot of distance between near and far. It works fine for a large landscape print *IF* you're willing to spend the time (and a lot of it) critically editing the blend masks. The other issue you will ultimately face is when moving from very close to infinity focus even on static subjects, you are actually changing the subject magnifications enough that even solid stationary objects can ghost, still requiring significant editing time on the blend masks...

    So let me repeat it again: having tilts and swings available on ALL of your tech lenses is a very (VERY) nice option for altering PoF for landscape and architectural shooters!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    If they are wide enough they could cover that. I'm taking the cheapest idea here and for 9 bucks might be worth a try especially the longer lenses with a wide enough angle hood. To me these bellows shades are big and a pain to deal with along with you have to pack them in a bag. Which is as big as the body cams almost. The wide angle lenses are tough since usually nothing can really shade them well without getting in the way. Just thinking before dropping 600-800 on one this might be worth the effort to see how they do.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    The real issue with tech or view cams is with shifts -- you don't need to worry about that on a fixed lens camera. With shift however, you alter the relative position of the IC and light-path off axis, and so the hood position needs to change to suit that. So regular hoods simply are not a good choice as they cannot optimally adjust to more ideally block the light falling on the lens/sensor.

    Jack

    This is exactly the reason , why I believe , that the ARCA 6x9 hood is too small in width . Not in length .
    I still doubt , that this hood is sufficient enough to be used with the DIGARON-W 4/40 lens when shifted , say about 10-12 mm . Don't forget , the image angle of that lens is 94 degrees .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    If they are wide enough they could cover that. I'm taking the cheapest idea here and for 9 bucks might be worth a try especially the longer lenses with a wide enough angle hood. To me these bellows shades are big and a pain to deal with along with you have to pack them in a bag. Which is as big as the body cams almost. The wide angle lenses are tough since usually nothing can really shade them well without getting in the way. Just thinking before dropping 600-800 on one this might be worth the effort to see how they do.
    If they are that wide, meaning wide enough to shade regardless of the amount of shift, they are going to be useless when the lens is zeroed ...
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Jack

    This is exactly the reason , why I believe , that the ARCA 6x9 hood is too small in width . Not in length .
    I still doubt , that this hood is sufficient enough to be used with the DIGARON-W 4/40 lens when shifted , say about 10-12 mm . Don't forget , the image angle of that lens is 94 degrees .
    You may be right. I will be testing it this weekend and will report back. Keep in mind the front end articulates on the scissor rails and can move up and down and swing a little side to side as well as move in and out -- and generally we only need to shade from one or two adjacent of the 4 quadrants...
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I see your point and don't disagree but if the shade is long enough it still will work on some lenses . Wides are a bitch no matter what you use, hard to get the lens shade out there far enough to cut light.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wides are a bitch no matter what you use, hard to get the lens shade out there far enough to cut light.
    Wides are tougher, but become a lot easier IF you use a shade that moves -- which is the point.
    Jack
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I see your point and don't disagree but if the shade is long enough it still will work on some lenses . Wides are a bitch no matter what you use, hard to get the lens shade out there far enough to cut light.

    Yes Guy .
    Wides are a bitch .
    Therefore the recommended action to shade with a cap or hat will also be useless , because you will see the cap or the hat on the image .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I know and most times these alternates work pretty well. There are always the other 10 percent or more of the time they don't. That part I totally get.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I am finding the Rodenstock 40 very difficult to shade by using my hand; either the hand is in part of the image or does not adequately prevent flare. I have not tried my hat yet, but I hope a good solution is forthcoming. I am working on a couple of ideas and will let you know if anything turns out to be promising. Charles

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Jack, You are correct the 32, fits. HOWEVER, if you get the lens and shift you will get the center-filter. Attach it to the lens and it won't fit anymore.

    I have both here and first I used both. Mainly the larger one for the 32, however, in recent times I started to use only the larger one with ALL lenses.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    So let me repeat it again: having tilts and swings available on ALL of your tech lenses is a very (VERY) nice option for altering PoF for landscape and architectural shooters!
    I think for architectural shooters and for shots like Woody's above, tilts are less useful when you often have lots of tall vertical objects in the foreground. The tilt in the image plane results in areas of these foreground objects out of focus and focus stacking is the only option IMO.

    Shifts are a different matter though!

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I have both here and first I used both. Mainly the larger one for the 32, however, in recent times I started to use only the larger one with ALL lenses.
    So , which one is the bigger one ? ? ?
    There is the 111006 (110 x 141) and the 111008 (171 x 171) both with rods
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I think for architectural shooters and for shots like Woody's above, tilts are less useful when you often have lots of tall vertical objects in the foreground. The tilt in the image plane results in areas of these foreground objects out of focus and focus stacking is the only option IMO.

    Shifts are a different matter though!
    agreed, when the area cannot be covered by a plane and needs a lot of 3D to keep everything in focus. I meant mostly swing for architecture when you want the receding SIDES of buildings to remain on the PoF...
    Jack
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I know several shooters here have gone 100% tech for their MF kit, while others avoid tech altogether because of the speed limitations. Clearly tech is not a good choice for somebody who has a short attention span or likes to do grab-and-go shooting.
    Not sure how to take that ....

    I'm not sure it's about attention span or grab and go ... it's about maximizing the opportunities. I rarely have the time to scout a location. Often I get one chance to shoot a place, and most of those places are not a static icon where a single shot is all I'm after but some dynamic location with all kinds of possibilities. Sometimes I'm just heading down a trail I've never been on before. With the tech camera, because of the time constraints I find myself bypassing compositions because perhaps there's something better around the corner and if I stop I'll run out of light.

    I don't think the tech camera improves on my ability to see and capture compositions at all (other than limiting them). What it brings to the table is really about the quality of the files ... in my case I've decided the DF quality is really good and makes the mechanics of shooting secondary to me. If I were an old LF shooter I'd probably feel different, but I come from the world of hasselblad's and RB/RZ67's, manual mode, and that's exactly how I shoot my DF.

    If the Tech camera had live view as good as the 5dMark2, I think I'd be singing a different tune mainly because of what I see you doing with tilt (guessing if I get back into it it won't be with an Alpa because I see tilt as being more important that shift). I work with my 5DMark2 and live view frequently and always confirm focus with the the live view on that camera. But I gave the IQ180 live view a go a couple of times ...it just doesn't work well enough to intrigue me. So time for a few more Schneider lenses and getting the best I can out of the DF.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I don't agree with Jacks comment on that either to be honest. I shoot the DF for many reasons and one is I can compose precisely what I want. I rarely and mean rarely ever crop in post. The viewfinder is my palette and shooting somewhat blind has kept me away from tech cams and I also agree just more shooting opportunities I have with the DSLR style. Not to mention I like a bag full of glass and use everyone of them from wide to long. To me tech cam is a limitation just like the M8 is. I need a cam that can do almost everything. No question they have there place and would like to have one but it will NEVER replace a DSLR style for me.
    I want a tech cam but for very specific reasons or maybe better said certain shooting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Guy and Wayne:

    I still shoot the DF too! You took only part of what I wrote and it lost all context! You left off the last part of that paragraph: "But for those willing to expend the time and effort to use it, it will pay dividends in the form of a more technically perfect image -- the cost is you'll have fewer unique compositions at the end of the day." If you re-read the entire post, I think you'll see I was not implying a DSLR is an inferior system or method at all, rather my point was that tech requires a slower, more thoughtful and methodical pace. Do you both disagree with that final statement? If you do, then yes we do disagree totally. (Granted, I could have probably used a better phrase than "short attention span;" like "in a hurry" or "on a very short time schedule." I guess I should not respond to posts when I cannot give it my full attention -- excuse me -- am in a hurry myself. )

    My entire original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    It was the same for me when I transitioned from film MF to LF cameras. The process is slower and requires process methodology to achieve successful results. And the process methodology takes time. Time and process is why I continue to carry and use both the tech camera and the DF camera kits...

    I know several shooters here have gone 100% tech for their MF kit, while others avoid tech altogether because of the speed limitations. Clearly tech is not a good choice for somebody who has a short attention span or likes to do grab-and-go shooting. But for those willing to expend the time and effort to use it, it will pay dividends in the form of a more technically perfect image -- the cost is you'll have fewer unique compositions at the end of the day.

    For me, it's a "what mood am in" sort of thing. I do like the deliberate, thoughtful approach tech brings to the field, and I find an inner peace in working that way. However, when time is short -- like when I'm traveling with the family -- the DF is clearly the better option. If I could only have one, it would be the DF, but I count myself fortunate I now have both options at my disposal
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    It's fine no worries just that a tech cam really not sure would give a technically perfect image that a DF style would not give you. I just think what you said was not what you meant that's all. Hey I get this all the time myself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    just that a tech cam really not sure would give a technically perfect image that a DF style would not give you.
    FTR, I absolutely do believe that a tech cam can in many -- not all, but many -- circumstances give you a technically better image than the DF. If it didn't, there would be zero reason to go through the added bother of using one. So it appears perhaps we do disagree on that point...
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I think in some areas yes I agree. But I don't think technically as a shooter per say. But yes the tech cam can do things the DSLR style can't do and I agree the tech lenses are technically more perfectly optimized or provide better image quality. My worry here in these discussions when we talk tech cams is folks start forgetting about the art when they shoot and think solely on this tech stuff. That can be very dangerous as we know and it's something when we teach want people to put aside and pay attention to what's in front of them than what they are holding. I get nervous about paying to much attention in the field to the tech and not get a image.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    I dont get the "shooting blind" comment - admittedly the fresnel glass and loupe is not as bright as a typical viewfinder on an SLR in 35mm or MF camera - but it has its advantages as well.

    What an SLR cant give you is what real tech cameras are designed for - and that is control over the plane of focus via movements. This control works for landscape , architecture and portrait work. I am pretty new to movements and I am experimenting with what can be achieved with tilt and swing -shift is the least of the advatanges of a tech camera.

    If a photographer has no need for control over plane of focus and perspective correction in camera - then they dont need a tech camera - but once you start to see the added control over image, depth of field, perspective - it is hard to go back to snap shot mode for stuff that is important to you.

    If the backs coud delvier a real live view or wireless projection onto an IPAD to prvide for a clearer idea of what is happenning - all the better - but really it doesn;'t take much experimentaiton to get the idea of how much tilt or shift to use for what purpose with which lens.

    - anyway that is what I am diggin about the artec and the Rodenstocks.

    I am deciding on what lens I shoudl buy for portrait work - teh comibination of tilt and a sharp les opens up so many creative possibilities for portrait work.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think in some areas yes I agree. But I don't think technically as a shooter per say. But yes the tech cam can do things the DSLR style can't do and I agree the tech lenses are technically more perfectly optimized or provide better image quality. My worry here in these discussions when we talk tech cams is folks start forgetting about the art when they shoot and think solely on this tech stuff. That can be very dangerous as we know and it's something when we teach want people to put aside and pay attention to what's in front of them than what they are holding. I get nervous about paying to much attention in the field to the tech and not get a image.

    That is the whole point about getting into the art.
    The tech camera encourages a deep look into the image which is needed to decide what to do with it. The DF which I prefer for model work is quicker and helps with those sorts of images where deep thought is not only unnecessary but often discouraged. Sometimes like the guy who shot the triple play yesterday, you gotta shoot not think. Tech cameras are just not well suited for that. On the other hand when you have the time to seek and obtain the BEST image, then tech is the way to go.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 18th August 2011 at 16:59.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    The shooting blind comment . Glad you brought it up. Peter how many years have you had your eye right to the finder to compose and taught yourself working within the frame. This is primarily what many of us are used too without taking you eye away to see what is in front of you. Now tech cams you lose that closeness to the finder. It's working in a different way . Your seeing not only what you are shooting but everything else around it. There truly is no way to see exactly what you are capturing unless your on a ground glass which many folks do not use with a tech cam in the field. Either your shooting tethered and shoot make adjustments to your shot or your out in the filed with some kind of rangefinder tool to see your framing which really none of them are perfectly accurate. So your kind of shooting blind and making adjustments and corrections. Viewfinder shooting be it ground glass or viewfinder you make adjusts in real time as you shoot. Rise fall and such, not to mention focusing which we all know is real time with finder or ground glass. Without them your basically again shooting blind to know if your in focus. So the shooting blind comment is more in regards to not being definitively sure of accuracy with composition,shifting,tilting and focus unless you truly are seeing it live via ground glass or viewfinder. Now live view is here this will certainly help be definitively more accurate since you can see it live and fine tune before you take the shot with visually confirmation.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post

    If a photographer has no need for control over plane of focus and perspective correction in camera - then they dont need a tech camera - but once you start to see the added control over image, depth of field, perspective - it is hard to go back to snap shot mode for stuff that is important to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    That is the whole point about getting into the art.
    The tech camera encourages a deep look into the image which is needed to decide what to do with it.
    ~
    when you have the ti{m}e to seek and obtain the BEST image, then tech is the way to go.
    -bob
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    (Granted, I could have probably used a better phrase than "short attention span;" like "in a hurry" or "on a very short time schedule."
    I guess that's what rubbed me the wrong way ... just sort of implies some inferiority ... short attention span is a pretty negative connotation and shoot and go is awfully close to "spray and pray" which is a term we sometimes use to describe many of the newer digital photographers that are out shooting weddings for a couple of hundred bucks and deliver DVD's with several thousand images on it. but I shouldn't have let it bug me ... I know you well enough that you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, just trying to express the difference in shooting styles. I did read the rest of it and agree ... if your good with a tech camera and there are many on this forum who are amazing with them, it certainly offers a step up in the quality of the captures.

    I'd love to take the time to master the tech because the tilt is truly amazing and I"m not very good at focus stacking yet , but every time I take it I am disappointed in having to skip things that I think would be really nice shots. I hope the next generation of DB's have a more advanced LiveView that makes the tech camera a little speedier ... I'll be giving it a try again.
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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Guy,

    While I agree with you that one should not pay too much attention to the technic, it is nevertheless a must to perfectly know this technic to be able to put it aside and forget about it. One should be exactly aware of the possibilities a camera is giving us (or not). It is (the technic) and shoulb be a tool allowing to extend the creative possibilities, not a barrier to slow it down.

    As Jack mentioned it already, using a SLR cam style or Tech cam style to produce images are 2 different ways to get an image. While both systems produce quality images, they are both 2 different tools, with different possibilities, requiring different skills as well as a much different approach to produce the image. Both camera types are however asking for skills, an artitstic one as well as a technical one.

    What I want to say, is that in some situations it simply needs a tech cam with movements (shift, tilt, swing) and certain other possibilities to get the image as one wants it. And in this case one betters know perfectly the technic, otherwise one limits oneself creatively.

    Best
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    My worry here in these discussions when we talk tech cams is folks start forgetting about the art when they shoot and think solely on this tech stuff. That can be very dangerous as we know and it's something when we teach want people to put aside and pay attention to what's in front of them than what they are holding. I get nervous about paying to much attention in the field to the tech and not get a image.
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Actually I am doing the following - when I need the benefits of SLR / DSLR I simply use this tool, if I need the benefits of a tech cam I use the tech cam. No matter which vendor etc etc.

    Never had any issues doing so and never had any issues commanding from those tools what I wanted.

    What I like? Hmmm... finally a stunning photograph and tall the rest is tools. So nothing specifically to like about on either solutions - these are just tools.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    My slant on all this is if a job needs the unique qualities of a SLR type camera I reach for a Canon or Nikon and everything else is tech camera. I personally feel in my type of work the MF DSLR's have too many compromises and MF's increase in IQ doesn't outweigh its failings.

    IMO is order to get the best out of a MF SLR camera, especially with the newer chips you have to take your time and think about what you are doing. If you don't its often very difficult to distinguish MF from the best 35mm. If that's the case I say you may as well go the whole hog and use a tech camera.

    So that is where I am at the moment..... 35mm DSLR's and MF tech camera. I've just missed all the Phase/Hasselblad stuff in the middle.

  42. #92
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    In the film days I worked with Linhof SuperTechnica and later Fuji GX 680 III. The slow, thoughtful, preparations for each frame suited me perfectly.

    When I jumped on the train for digital it was a Canon setup, but from day 1 I honestly did not feel very inspirational about the workflow or feel of the plastic body (gone through all 1Ds bodies). However, often have I thought about "the grand ol' days" with the Linhof and Fuji.

    Now, being completely new to mediumformat digital and choosing exclusively the tech route, I am getting back to my roots. This is a good thing. No, it's a great thing. In fact it's the best ever To me, slowing down and studying a scene, looking for alternatives, setting up the camera exactly how I want it and then finally pull the trigger is a an amazing feeling. I feel I am more of the true author of the result.

    Hence, no images will be of coincidence, all images will be carefully planned. I know some will argue that it takes away spontaneity, but that is not who I am. I do not mind missing 10 great images because I was not ready, as long as I get the 1, that will last me my lifetime.

    Tech for me is king.
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  43. #93
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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Garett. Can't tell ya how many times I thought about this and taking the MF to a tech cam only and use the 35 for everything else. It actually makes a lot of sense and rolling this around for like 2 years now in my head. Than I get a email yesterday Guy can you shoot a Falcon 900 with people in some of the shots than we need some ad shots. I'm right back at my MF DSLR and can't get away from it. This is just one example of this and I could probably do it with the tech and the 35 but in many cases like this I'm still better shooting everything with the MF DSLR . But seriously I have tossed this around so much and been wanting to do this , I just keep hitting the road block on it.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    .... So the shooting blind comment is more in regards to not being definitively sure of accuracy with composition,shifting,tilting and focus unless you truly are seeing it live via ground glass or viewfinder. Now live view is here this will certainly help be definitively more accurate since you can see it live and fine tune before you take the shot with visually confirmation.
    Well I guess we all know the ld saying horses for courses...a bright viewfinder for movement less shots is a wonderful thing. However I use wides on my Alpa and now my Sinar artec - the Rodenstock 23mm for example, is usually glued on F11 -for its sweet spot ..a little bit of tilt combined with its huge DOF and you can pretty much set teh lens just shy of infinity- ( a habit of mine) and everythign is in focus all the time - only peopel who are new or really dont shoot with cameras with movement or lenses liek LF wides dont understand how deep Hyperfocal distances - which means focus for me is pretty much irrelevant on the artec or even on an Alpa with the 35digitar.

    So then we get to composition..the upside down image on a fresnel is a great boon to composition because it forces the mind to think about the lines and elements and positioning of them all - in a much more abstract way..a different way of seeing..and dare I say thinking

    As for longer lenses- well I am deciding between a 70 and a 90 Rodenstock for portrait work - the fresnel focusing in good light with lenses stopped down provides all the focus accuracy I need.. the Sinar back comes with 16X magnification capability so getting sharp focus is not a big deal really or maybe I am lucky?

    In house on live view well the camera with movement is even easier..

    I can list all the stuff I wouldnt use a tech camera for..and thats where SLR types or rangefinders come in..

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Peter I'm not going to get back into this big discussion on this simply because it's not getting understood clearly. But the point here is I teach photography and been on many workshops. I teach with the art of seeing as first and foremost the most important element to photography. Everything else is secondary to this, the issue as I see it is the art is getting left behind in favor of the gear on how important that is in the field and in these forums. I want people to learn photography as a visual art it's as simple as that. I refuse to leave my legacy behind as a tool to use but a visual art to learn.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter I'm not going to get back into this big discussion on this simply because it's not getting understood clearly. But the point here is I teach photography and been on many workshops. I teach with the art of seeing as first and foremost the most important element to photography. Everything else is secondary to this, the issue as I see it is the art is getting left behind in favor of the gear on how important that is in the field and in these forums. I want people to learn photography as a visual art it's as simple as that. I refuse to leave my legacy behind as a tool to use but a visual art to learn.
    ++1

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Exactly, well said.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Actually I am doing the following - when I need the benefits of SLR / DSLR I simply use this tool, if I need the benefits of a tech cam I use the tech cam. No matter which vendor etc etc.

    Never had any issues doing so and never had any issues commanding from those tools what I wanted.

    What I like? Hmmm... finally a stunning photograph and tall the rest is tools. So nothing specifically to like about on either solutions - these are just tools.
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Oh well oneday I might aspire to know something about photography and making a decent photograph - Guy..one day..

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt - off topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Than I get a email yesterday Guy can you shoot a Falcon 900 with people in some of the shots than we need some ad shots. I'm right back at my MF DSLR and can't get away from it. This is just one example of this and I could probably do it with the tech and the 35 but in many cases like this I'm still better shooting everything with the MF DSLR . But seriously I have tossed this around so much and been wanting to do this , I just keep hitting the road block on it.
    Guy, given what I have seen of your work (mostly fashion and landscape) I would be interested in seeing what you do with the Falcon. Please post some pics in the "planes trains etc" thread. Actually, I think it would be great to start a thread asking people to post what they would not normally shoot. Fine art/archtecture, landscape/car, fashion/car - that sort of thing. Might generate some fresh views.

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    Re: Tech Cams: Why I like tilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I teach with the art of seeing as first and foremost the most important element to photography.
    Excellent point Guy and one which should be the grounding of every new/up and coming photographer. Picture first, camera last!

    In most situations I have the shot I want visualised in my head and the lighting positioned before I've even got the camera out of the bag and pointed at the scene.

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