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Considering the H3DII-31

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andershald

Guest
Hello Everyone.

I am new to this forum and I can see that this is a very active forum for medium format digital. I am considering the Hasselblad offer on the H3DII-31, and I found that there is relatively few posts on the web about this particular camera. I have borrowed the camera from at dealer in Copenhagen for the weekend and I thought I'd share my initial impressions. I have posted the same at the Hasselblad user forum, so forgive me if you read this both places.

My test is not a scientific or general purpose test of the camera, but a test of whether the camera is right for me and my way of working. I shoot kids, mostly, on location, mostly, in daylight, with reflectors, and occasionally with flash in a studio, but rarely daylight with flashfill (which is one of the things that make the lens shutters an advantage).

Let me start with some of the things I expected to be issues: I have been shooting a Canon 1DS2 for a couple of years, I expected shooting speed to be horribly slow. It wasn't...or at least it didn't feel slow. I used to shoot a Pentax 67 and this feels way faster. Also the whole handling of a medium format system gives a shoot a slightly different pace than shooting with a dslr. The shooting speed is fine. I tested both my Lexar 133x cards and a Sandisk Extreme IV card and the faster cards are essential. Not only does the buffer not fill up, the frame rate increases with the faster cards. So if I buy, I will also buy a new stack of 8gb cards (approx 150 images/8gb).

Battery life was ok, I got 300+ frames on the first charge and I presume the dealer gave me a freshly charged battery. Additional batteries will also be added to the shopping basket.

Autofocus was fine, not dslr speed, but everything is a little slower on medium format, thus the focus speed didn't feel like it was slowing me down at all. Even for kids I am not worried, although if I am shooting kids moving around, I'd probably reach for the Canon again, as I expected.

I was slightly worried that the crop factor of 1.3 with the 31 back would make the lenses feel slightly 'tight', that the 80 would feel too claustrophobic for a 'normal lens'. My first impression is that it is not an issue. The dealer gave me the 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses. I think the 50, 80 and 100mm lenses are the ones that gets me closest to where I'd like to be. It might be that I decide that the 100 is too close to the 80 which would make me look to the 120 macro, instead. Looking through the viewfinder at the 31back frame indication marks, I was surprised at how little bigger the bigger chips are. I am no longer concerned about the crop facter.

In my work I like to shoot at lower apertures, I like low depth of field. That would be my main reson for going with the 100mm lens. Yesterday I couldn't figure out what was troubling me, but I realised today that on a sunny day like yesterday, I actually had to stop the lenses down and shoot at f8, f11 and quite a few frames at f22, at a 100 iso. The shutters in the lenses are not very fast compared to the Canon. This I actually find to go against the way I work. I tried to find the specifications on Hasselblads website, but oddly the product sheets didn't specify the max shutterspeed! The 100mm seems to max out at 1/800s. I am not so happy about that. On the other hand, higher depth of field means that my shots from yesterday were nice and sharp :)

One of the things that really attracted me to the Hasselblad was the nice big monitor on the back. Sadly it was so dim that it was more or less useless outdoors! Even trying to shade it with a hand didn't help much (while holding a heavy camera and operating the navigation button). There might be a way to increase brightness, at the cost of battery life, but I couldn't figure it out. (If anybody knows how, do let me know) That is really a shame, because it would be nice to have a useful screen. The tiny (by todays standards) screen on my Canon 1dsII is far more useful than the big monitor on the HD3II-31, simply because it is brighter.

I am a big fan of the histogram on the handgrip, it is much easier to see than the monitor, and it'll instantly tell me if my exposures are good. Nice feature.

All in all I found the camera to be really well built, nice to work with, intuitive to use. A few of the things I expected to be issues were not, and some of the things I expected to be great were not so hot. One of the really important things to realise about buying a MFD system is that when you don't have one, they are objects of desire. When you have them, they are a camera, a tool and just that. Using one for image making is not a 'religious experience' that will bring your image making to new and pleasurable heights. It's a camera. It'll do what other cameras do, record images. Hopefully in the hands of the photographer it will enable the photographer to do something that she or he wasn't able to do with another tool. But an expensive camera will not turn any photographer into a better photographer. This type of camera will actually require slightly more skill from a photographer, I think.

There is one complication though. I am one of those odd photographers who feels compelled to withstand the Apple brainwash. Yes, I am a pc user. I am used to pc's and I will stick with my pc!

So in order to view the wonderful files from this very expensive camera I downloaded...FlexColor. The latest version, updated recently and whoosh...it was 1998 again. Drag and drop is a foreign concept, files must be imported through a separate import window, zooming in on an image in the raw processer to see if it is sharp doesn't help you it will just enlarge the pixels of the thumbnail, so no checking for sharpness prior to processing. I kept my raw files in seperate folders inside a folder called 'hasselblad test' in the import window I pointed to the 'hasselblad test' folder, and it was empty...of course, I have to import from the specific subfolder that contains the raw files...argh! The raw processing tools of CS3 is complete science fiction in contrast to the, let me try to be polite here, BASIC, tools available in FlexColor. In my opinion FlexColor is not an option for a working pro. I use Iview Media Pro for editing, but not with Hasselblad files. I tried opening Bridge (which I never use) and the Hasselblad files were compressed to square images!?! Would I show these to a client at a shoot? No.

I sat down and did my very best to work through a handful of images in FlexColor and it is actually doable. It takes forever, feels very primitive and was an altogether uncomfortable experience. I opened the processed tiffs in Photoshop (Whoosh back to 2008) and of course the files look great. As I expected. In fact I am sure that the image quality from any of these backs, Leaf, PhaseOne, Sinar or Hasselblad is great. The differences are marginal an mostly related to user preferences and camera preferences. I had a friend send me som raw files from his P31+ and P45 backs, I opened them in ACR (without travelling in time, adjusted them in my preferred raw converter) and compared them to the Hasselblad files. To my immediate impression the files seemed equal. I didn't do detailed analysis, I looked at them side by side at 100% 200% and 400%. I saw nothing that would make me prefer either back over the other. I did think that the higher resolution of the P45 back was so marginal that, for me at least, there would be no attraction to spend the extra money.

I know Phocus is coming and I now that it is estimated to arrive in Q4 this year. But I am offered a deal that is available until August 31. Would I spend this much money on a system that forces me to use a piece of software that is not available for me to test now. In short, NO! I know all the arguments about software correction etc, but NO! I will not gamble on liking Phocus. I bought Capture One when I bought the Canon, as a lot of people like it, but I didn't and never use it (even after they matched the PC user interface to the Mac UI). The software is as important a part of the imagemaking proces as the lens and the back, if I am not happy with that part, it IS a dealbreaker. I don't use Aperture or Lightroom or Bridge...so the fact that Phocus is made to look like those, doesn't really impress me. I know, on this particular point I am a little weird, but it's my opinion and how I like to work. A Phase back would allow me to work the way I like to work. Hasselblad should make their rawfile format available to be processed in ACR, and the user could choose and decide on wether to take advantage of Phocus or not.

I will continue to shoot today and tomorrow and I will add to this post any further impressions. Please note that these are only my impressions based on how I would use the camera. My findings are based on picking up the camera and using it without reading a manual or going through the various custom option. It is not unlikely that some of the findings are due to me not knowing specifics about the camera and the system, if that is the case, please don't hesitate to correct me. The things that I find less useful for me, could be a non issue for other photographer. I am also certain that using the camera and getting to know the camera as you only get to know equipment you own, will increase the quality of output from the camera, and the pleasure of using it.

I am writing my impressions because I intend to buy a MFDB and camera system and because I am seriously considering the H3DII-31. I have not yet ruled this system out completely (Phocus for PC could come out in time and I could like it!), I could find things about the alternative systems that annoys me more than Flexcolor. But I have asked my dealer to set me up to test the Mamiya/Phase camera and a Phase back next week. I will also post my findings of that test here.

Have a nice weekend.

Best regards,
Anders Hald
 
A

andershald

Guest
Oh, I did find an image preview to check sharpness in Flexcolor, in the menu "Window" under detail.

Anders
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Hi Anders:

Welcome to the forum!

In my comparisons, C1 does a superior job with the Phase files compared to ACR/LR, and especially the P backs without micro-lenses like the P45, FWIW... So as long as you're testing, you should at least open the Phase files in C1 and see if you like what you see over ACR/LR.

Aside from that, I agree --- ALL of the current crop of digital backs are outstanding, and the main choosing points are going to be camera platform preferences and back UI preferences.


Cheers,
 
A

andershald

Guest
Hi Jack,

Thanks for the welcome. This forum is great!

I'll find my C1 and try the Phase files in C1. At this point I don't want to rule out anything. If my experience testing the Hasselblad this weekend has taught me anything, it is that no poring over camera/back specs and opinions in forums can substitute an actual test of the system in a situation as close to a 'real' shoot as possible.

Best regards,
Anders
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Hi Jack,

Thanks for the welcome. This forum is great!

I'll find my C1 and try the Phase files in C1. At this point I don't want to rule out anything. If my experience testing the Hasselblad this weekend has taught me anything, it is that no poring over camera/back specs and opinions in forums can substitute an actual test of the system in a situation as close to a 'real' shoot as possible.

Best regards,
Anders
EXCELLENT point --- and at the prices involved, it underscores the importance of testing out the cameras/backs you are interested in before you buy...

Cheers,
 

David K

Workshop Member
Great first post Anders and should be quite informative for those considering that system. Looking forward to your follow up post. BTW, lovely images on your website.
 

mark1958

Member
Anders. I have been shooting with the Hasselblad H3DII-31 since late December. I moved from the H2/Leaf 65. I am happy to offer you any of my opinions if you like. I have tried all of the Hasselblad HC lenses too. I currently own the 28, 50-110, 80, 100, 120 macro, 210, 300 and 1.7x TC, extension tube set.
You posted a lot of good points in your post. One quick point is that you can increase the brightness of the LCD in the menu controls. I tend to keep mine below middle for battery life but on occasion turn it up. I never have trouble seeing the histogram even with the LCD on low. Here are some shots I took a week or so ago. These were mostly with the 50-110 and 28mm HC lens.
http://www.pbase.com/markay/colorado_2008&page=all

One other point, is that the crop factor does sometimes concern me. There are a few images that i wish I had just a bit more "room". I do like to take macros and sometimes shoot my kids in my house and the the ability to take really nice higher iso images is very helpful.

I am a Mac user but before Phocus was available, I got used to flexcolor and did not feel it was that bad. There are still some things in Phocus that are not optimal but it is an improvement.
 

mark1958

Member
I wanted to make one more point. In my opinion the 100mm plus 1.7x TC is optically as good as the 150mm. It is just as fast since the 100 is 2.2 and the 150 is 3.4. The 210 is an outstanding lens and there is almost no loss of IQ with the 1.7xTC. Also in my opinion and those of others who have posted on LL, the 50-110 zoom is optically as good as the primes in the same range. It is big and heavy and primarily for tripod shooting
 
A

andershald

Guest
Hi David & Mark.
Thanks for the feedback.
Mark you have some lovely images. I'll start looking for the brightness increase right away. I can charge the battery over night and still shoot tomorrow and see how much it affects battery life. But a slightly brighter lcd will be a great improvement. Thanks for the heads up. From what I have seen so far the lenses are great. In my work I use very few lenses, three is really all I ever use. On the Canon it is the 35, 50 and 85. So the 50, 80 and 100 or 120 would be it for me. I like handholding and low aperture, so the zoom is probably not for me. An extension tube or 'set of...' would be a handy thing to have but I never shoot long lenses so at TC is probably something I'd rent, should I need it. Can I ask you what you feel is still missing in Phocus? Since Phocus seems to be the only way if I am to be a Hasselblad owner, I am keen to know as much as possible.
 

mark1958

Member
I guess the thing i dont like about the hassy files is related to that I sometimes take multiple exposures of the same composition. I use different apertures or other parameters. perhaps with some of my macros, the wind is slightly blowing. I like to be able to take the CF card and blow up the file to see 100% view to determine which is the sharpest or has the focal point I really wanted. In Phocus or flexcolor, you have to convert the files first before you can really get 100% image. So i have to convert and then trash the ones I do not want. The other issue for me at least is that I never know which files I should keep. The converted phocus files are fine but what if i ever wanted to go back to flexcolor or make them dng. What if the hassy software becomes obsolete. If CS3 is ever able to open these files, will the files from the camera or converted files be the ones for CS3. So now many times I save both, and the psd or tiff, which eats up a lot of computer space.

Also, I just got very used to CS3 controls, it just takes a little more getting used to.
 

mark1958

Member
Andershald.. If you do not want to use a tripod, I would suggest the 100mm over the 120 macro. The later is much larger and harder to handhold in my mind. I love that lens but always use it on a tripod. I am not sure why you would consider this lens based on your needs. The 100mm is a bit better for shots greater than 5 or 6 feet, and it is fast at f2.2. At this aperture.. tack sharp
 

woodyspedden

New member
As a user for only two months of an H3DII-39 let me add some of my experiences to the mix.

First I agree that the 120 HC is barely hand holdable (probably not a word) due to size and weight. It is a great macro lens but it works best only with a tripod.

Secondly Anders Phocus is not coming in the fourth quarter........it is here now! Go to www.hasselbladusa.com and download. Whoops, you did say you were on a P.C. so you are probably correct that it is fourth quarter delivery. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My guess is that when it is released we should be seeing an update to add some new features. Phocus is great for what it does but the lack of recovery and other shadow and highlight controls limits its usefulness somewhat.

I have taken a different workflow approach compared to many if not most. I import all of the 3FR files into Phocus with all settings at default. This allows me to make use of the DAC for correction of the HC lenses. Then I immediately export the files as DNG's. Now you can bring the files into C1 or Lightroom or Aperture or whatever your favorite raw converter. Now you can do much more work with converters that have been around a bit longer and have more processing power. The process of import and export is very quick so it is not a burden. You might want to try this.

The other thing I might recommend to you is, if Auto Focus is not a super priority for you , then go to the used market and get very high quality V lenses at a fraction of the new cost for the HC equivalents. In particular I would recommend the V 120 Macro. Although it doesn't go to 1:1 without extension tubes, the tubes can be had on ebay for low prices compared to new. For product shots etc where shutter speed is not an issue since you are tripod mounted, this is a really inexpensive way to get image quality that in my opinion is superior to the HC 120. Also the lens is very light compared to the HC 120 (small also) so hand holding is a breeze. I find it one of the very attractive lenses for this system. Similarly you may want to look at the V 40 CFE IF for a no holds barred world class super wide angle. This lens just has to be used to be believed. Anyway, i could go on and on about the V lenses but suffice it to say that there was a reason why these guys were the state of the art for years in the hands of fashion photogs etc who must have the very best image quality.

One accessory I would recommend is the Singh Ray Vari ND 10 stop neutral density filter. It comes as a 77mm screw in mount so it is ideal for the 100 2.2 HC. It is essentially back to back polarizers which can be rotated to go from a 1 stop ND to a 10 stop ND. This will take care of any concerns you may have about the maximum shutter speed of 1/800 second.

By the way the 1/800 second max shutter speed is common to all lenses with the built in leaf shutters so it applies equally to the Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cameras. The way to get high shutter speeds is to go with focal plane bodies such as the Phase/Mamiya or the older Hasselblad 200 series bodies. The downside is that you can flash synch only at 1/90th second whereas you can flash synchronize all the way to the max 1/800 second with the leaf shutters. Phase/Mamiya have been talking about bringing out leaf shuttered lenses which they are clearly capable of doing. However their shutters, unless something very radical happens, will also be limited to 1/800 second or thereabouts.

Applaud your decision to really research the subject before jumping in. Once in the price of the accessories you will need alone will be a very large number so you don't want to be accessorizing a system you don't already love.

Have fun and enjoy the MFDB experience. It is heady stuff

Woody Spedden
 

David K

Workshop Member
Woody,

Funny how we seem to wind up with the same accessories. I just picked up this filter and have been playing with it a bit. Do you like yours? What in particular are you using it for? Have you gotten step up rings to use it with other lenses?

With regard to the Rollei lenses, I think the max shutter speed of the new PQS lenses is 1/1000 and the older lenses are 1/500.

One accessory I would recommend is the Singh Ray Vari ND 10 stop neutral density filter. It comes as a 77mm screw in mount so it is ideal for the 100 2.2 HC. It is essentially back to back polarizers which can be rotated to go from a 1 stop ND to a 10 stop ND. This will take care of any concerns you may have about the maximum shutter speed of 1/800 second.

By the way the 1/800 second max shutter speed is common to all lenses with the built in leaf shutters so it applies equally to the Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cameras.

Woody Spedden
 

woodyspedden

New member
Woody,

Funny how we seem to wind up with the same accessories. I just picked up this filter and have been playing with it a bit. Do you like yours? What in particular are you using it for? Have you gotten step up rings to use it with other lenses?

With regard to the Rollei lenses, I think the max shutter speed of the new PQS lenses is 1/1000 and the older lenses are 1/500.
Hey David

I have not yet gotten the step up rings but I intend to.

Regardless of whether other brands of leaf shutters are 1/500 or 1/1000 they are not close to the max speeds of Focal Plane shutters which routinely go to 1/8000. Thus for me the reason to own the Vari ND. Plus I think that Dr Singh is a wonderful scientist and perhaps an even more wonderful human! He is the type of person in our industry who deserves our support as he continuously strives to bring what we need to the party. I have spent a number of hours with him on the phone and just love how he thinks and acts. As a fellow Floridian you may want to establish a relationship with him to influence the development of filters, especially for MF. His primary influences to date have been 35mm shooters, most notably Galen Rowell whose work I really admire (even if I am never going to the locations he used Tarzan antics to reach LOL!)

Love this forum

Woody
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Welcome Anders.

I am a long time H3D/31 shooter (and now have the H3D-II/31 purchased as part of the Hasselblad price promotion) ... which replaced a Canon 1DsMKIII for shooting wedding photography and faster action commercial work. So, our people shooting motives are similar.

First of all, please check with your dealer ... but I believe that H3D-II/31 promotion has been extended until the end of the year. However, please double check that I am correct. This may allow you time to evaluate Phocus PC later.

RE: Software ... Phocus is roughly similar to Lightroom in workflow. Like LR, it swiftly loads an overview of images to allow you to weed out the obvious junk, mis-shots, and badly exposed images. Like LR, this is not the stage for evaluating the merits of 3 similar shots. The remaining images are then imported and placed in a file that you create.

Once loaded, you can swiftly toggle back and forth between similar shots. You can do this instantly because the files are already loaded. In this way Phocus is faster than Adobe Camera RAW. And, like Lightroom, you can select images to be in a "collection"

Wether using Phocus or Flexcolor, at this point you have the option to convert any or all the images into DNG RAW files which Adobe Camera RAW recognizes and opens in the ACR processing software. The pure Hasselbald files remain untouched as a back-up which you can return to at any time. Adobe Lightroom also recognizes the DNG files. So, for now you can evaluate the H3D-II/31 with a more familiar software. For people work, and for the lenses you intend on using, the Hasselbald software corrections called "DAC" are somewhat irrelevant ... I rarely use them for wedding work shooting people.

Now, if you do not use Photoshop CS3-Adobe Camera RAW or Lightroom2 ... you should know that Aperture directly opens Hasselbald H3D-II/31 files.

There is a lot more ... but that's enough for now.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Equal time, since the Hasselblad reps seem asleep at the wheel :ROTFL:

Hasselblad Masters 2008:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/masters/masters-winners-2008.aspx

Previous Hasselblad Masters winners:

http://www.hasselblad.com/masters-2007.aspx

Other users doing some "equipment stretching" work:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx

Marco Grob has some interesting people work if not somewhat "dark" in tone and manner":

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase/marco-grob.aspx

I love Kevin Lynch's "Before and After" shots of fighters:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/52062

Check out this relatively new shooter in particular since he did a hands on comparison also:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/55603

Rivalry is good. It keeps advancements humming from which we all benefit :salute:
 

David K

Workshop Member
I don't know guys... I haven't gone through the list but seems like Hassy and Leaf are both claiming Julia Fullerton-Batten. I thought she was shooting Sinar :)
 
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