Hasselblad vs Phaseone

[dfarkas]

Seems I need to throw the S2 into the debate to get things going :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Seriously, unless it's beyond the budget of the OP, it should be part of the matrix.

In any event, I think that any differences in image quality from all Hassi, Phase, and S2 are minute and that all of these systems are capable of producing superbe files with the photographer being the limiting factor. The differences are in handling ergonomics etc, and that in my view is a personal issue.

As said on many other threads by many others: test before buy.

Good luck.

Georg

Georg,

I couldn't agree more. As I've said before, at this level of camera, image quality should be a given; it's everything else that you will deal with on a daily basis that starts to matter more and more.

These factors can include battery life, viewfinder brightness, the speed of image review, whether or not you need tech camera movements with tilt/shift, the size, feel and balance of the body in your hand, what software is used to process the Raw files, available lens choices, shutter speed range, the sound of the mirror and shutter, etc.

A camera isn't merely an image capture device; it is a tool that a photographer uses to create images. Anyone who is serious or passionate about a particular craft or trade usually has very strong feelings towards the tools they use. Chefs are particular about their knives, yet any cheap knife will still cut a carrot. Driving enthusiasts prefer different brands of cars, yet any car will get you from point A to point B. Artists like certain brushes, woodworkers cherish their chisels and planes, fly fisherman prefer particular hand-made rods, etc.

Tastes and preferences are, by their very nature, personal to the individual. So, yes, definitely do your research and try out the various cameras first hand in your typical shooting environment (not a camera store parking lot). If possible, use each system for at least a few days so you can get over the initial learning curve and then decide if you can live with the system every single day. Will it be a good partner or constantly annoy you with that one thing every time you pick it up?

And, yes, I am personally biased towards the S2 and I do shoot with one. For me, the S2 represents a perfect balance of the factors that are important to me.


David

 

[archivue]

I've not used the H system and really don't know that much about it but my V system indicates the interest Hasselblad has in existing customers and integrating the CFV39 & 50 backs with tech cameras. The V back functions perfectly on technical cameras like my Technikardan 23. The V back uses an on board Hasselblad/Sony battery and both the H & V backs can be powered off the firewire port of a laptop or desktop computer. Again I'm not familiar with other manufactures products like the V Hasselblad back but I don't recall any other makers backs working on the V cameras without a sync cable between the camera and the back. As you know the V back requires no sync cable on the V bodies. I guess that one could say that Leaf and Phase have not designed / thought out the use of their backs on anything other than a Mamiya / phase or digital technical camera.

I don't really see it as a lack of planning or design concern but really targeting different types of customer. I think this is also true of the H and V system backs from Hasselblad. Hasselblad targeted two distinctly different groups of users.

Yes, but in the same time you can't rotate the sensor with these backs... compare to leaf R...

i prefer to be able to use a 503CW with a cable in both orientation using waist level, than the hassy solution !

again, that's a personal point of view !

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'll just say one thing and leave it at that since I shoot it the fact remains its really hard to overlook the new IQ series of backs . Really hard to not consider them compared to everything out there.But being in Finland as the Op is, I would put a strong plug in for any dealer in the area which you reside regardless of brand. I would myself be putting a lot of weight on this alone. I have been to Finland and it's a big country and I would be looking for support as close to home as I could or at least a overnight away from Fed X

 

[DDudenbostel]

Talking of support, how many here have had problems with any digital back or camera that required sending it to the manufacturer? I leased a Dycomed scanning back about thirteen years ago that was a disaster but since never had an issue with any of my professional digital equipment. Oops, my first DSLR, the D1 Nikon, had a firmware bug. I had one of the first in the US and it would revert to the Japanese language and reset all preferences. At that time in digital the firmware had to be loaded at a service center.

 

[David K]

Talking of support, how many here have had problems with any digital back or camera that required sending it to the manufacturer?

I have had to send both a lens and my S2 back to Leica in Germany for repairs. Not something I was thrilled about but the repairs were handled promptly and professionally thanks in no small part to the support of my dealer (David F). Stuff happens...how it is handled can make all the difference in the world in how you feel about a given brand. All of the current MFDB's sell for premium prices these days. I think it's fair to expect premium service in return.

 

[stngoldberg]

The fact that you have to purchase a third party external battery to use a Hasselblad digital back on anything other then a Hasselblad SLR is indicative to me that Hasselblad is not thinking/designing their backs for any other purpose than to be used on their own SLRs. Also the fact that Hasselblad sues to keep others backs off their SLRs tells me they are not interested in 3rd party solutions which would include tech cameras.

Just an observation but it seems to me that the use of Hasselblad backs on digitally design tech cameras (i.e. Alpa, Combo, "cameras not design for film") is the exception and Phase and Leaf being far more prevalent.

Hasselblad makes an external battery for the back--- it is called Imagebank---I don't want to go into the closed system discussion---all of the medium format brands are just trying to survive and we need them to prosper so that we can be the recipients new technology that they bring to market
Stanley

 

[stngoldberg]

Talking of support, how many here have had problems with any digital back or camera that required sending it to the manufacturer? I leased a Dycomed scanning back about thirteen years ago that was a disaster but since never had an issue with any of my professional digital equipment. Oops, my first DSLR, the D1 Nikon, had a firmware bug. I had one of the first in the US and it would revert to the Japanese language and reset all preferences. At that time in digital the firmware had to be loaded at a service center.

I have had a few minor issues that needed repair, and in every case,my dealer, Peter Lorber, provided me with a free loaner until my camera was repaired and returned.
In addition Hasselblad has provided me with one day turn around service on the occasion that I needed it. The service after the sale that I have received has been extraordinary.

Stanley

 

[Laurent]

I had the same question last year. I got both company reps come to my studio and I played with both cameras and both systems. I ended up going with the H4D-40. Not to say the Phase one was not good. I just preferred the overall Hasselblad system and the files it gave me. To my taste the H file looked better. I have had it for a few months now and really love that camera. I have not put down my Nikon though as they are different cameras for different results. Be aware though that the files you'll get from a MF camera are much bigger then from a DSLR. You"ll need more computing power and hard drive space both internal and external.

 

[GMB]

S2 is a great camera but im worried about upgrading.

I think I understand where you are coming from: upgrade of back instead of upgrade of complete camera; the special Phase upgrade programs etc.

However, I suggest to consider the following:

1) All the current systems offer plenty of image quality and user interface. Sure, there are always new things coming (and some of the IQ features would be nice on the S2), but I for myself do see a "need" to upgrade any time soon (certainly not for more pixels). (That is not to say that I would not get an S2 when it comes out). But my decision on what to get was based on what I want now and not what it might cost me to get more in the future.

2) So far Leica has been pretty good in introducing new features through firmware updates, and I think that will continue.

3) Third, if Leica should bring out an S3 (whenever that may be), I think the net cost of upgrading (cost for new minus whatever you get for your used S2) will not be significantly higher than for other brands (whether there is a Leica upgrade program or not).

Hope it helps your decision making.

Georg

 

[stephengilbert]

"Third, if Leica should bring out an S3 (whenever that may be), I think the net cost of upgrading (cost for new minus whatever you get for your used S2) will not be significantly higher than for other brands (whether there is a Leica upgrade program or not)."

Two questions:

Has Leica ever offered upgrades (i.e., reduced price on a new camera in exchange for your trading in an old one)?

Have you checked used S2 prices? Think they'll go up when the S3 comes out?

 

[atanabe]

"Third, if Leica should bring out an S3 (whenever that may be), I think the net cost of upgrading (cost for new minus whatever you get for your used S2) will not be significantly higher than for other brands (whether there is a Leica upgrade program or not)."

Two questions:

Has Leica ever offered upgrades (i.e., reduced price on a new camera in exchange for your trading in an old one)?


Have you checked used S2 prices? Think they'll go up when the S3 comes out?

Nor has Canon, Nikon, Olympus - Phase and Hasselblad are doing this to keep you in or get you in the fold. Think of the markup that they must have built in to be able to offer this. If you use the equipment for a living, you depreciate it - that is how you get your investment back.

Used S2 prices have been about 15% off of the new price - in digital world that is pretty good for a year + of use. Used M8s (non upgraded) are going for 50% of what they sold for new - even with the short comings of IR issues and no warranty, that is a respectable value for digital. M9s at a 10% drop in value, so as a whole, Leica has held their value well in the marketplace. Do I think that S2 used prices will go up after the S3? Well, when the M9 came out, a used M8 went for $2100, they are now up in price from the listings that I have seen lately.

Buying gear at least for use professionally, should not be based primarily on resale value. Any profit that is made on the sale of the depreciated gear is considered income and taxes will need to be paid on that after all. So buy what is best for the business to prosper.

Lastly, why is the mere mention of S2 in any discussion like throwing gasoline on a fire?

 

[fotografz]

S2 is a great camera but im worried about upgrading.

With any of these systems, upgrades often include the body. Not necessary with Phase backs, but not many would keep a AFD-II body when the DF camera came out with added features ... and when Phase upgrades their DF there will be considerations to upgrade that also.

So, just because the S2 is a single unit doesn't stop you from upgrading. The question only you can answer is if you really need more for what you shoot. The S2 is pretty darned complete as far as shooting is concerned ... they just are slow to bring out the system additions ... like the Leaf Shutter lenses.

However, if you currently feel you need more in a possible future upgrade, then I'd recommend looking elsewhere for more versatility or higher resolution now. I have a Hasselblad H4D/60 and slew of lenses, but find myself using the S2 far more frequently because of its 35mm DSLR like form factor and ease of taking it with me more places ... not to mention that the lenses are ... well ... Leica.

-Marc

 

[ptomsu]

With any of these systems, upgrades often include the body. Not necessary with Phase backs, but not many would keep a AFD-II body when the DF camera came out with added features ... and when Phase upgrades their DF there will be considerations to upgrade that also.

So, just because the S2 is a single unit doesn't stop you from upgrading. The question only you can answer is if you really need more for what you shoot. The S2 is pretty darned complete as far as shooting is concerned ... they just are slow to bring out the system additions ... like the Leaf Shutter lenses.

However, if you currently feel you need more in a possible future upgrade, then I'd recommend looking elsewhere for more versatility or higher resolution now. I have a Hasselblad H4D/60 and slew of lenses, but find myself using the S2 far more frequently because of its 35mm DSLR like form factor and ease of taking it with me more places ... not to mention that the lenses are ... well ... Leica.

-Marc

+1

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for the comments so far. I shoot for now mostly cars,landscape, and portraits and sometimes weddings. Iḿ thinking of leaving my 35mm for that purpose only.Is there a good place where i can find second hand mf:s at europe like h4d-40 or p40 and 645df . Is there a lot of diffrence between 645 df and af ?

I'd watch the classified section here on GetDPI, this is one of the most heavily populated MFD places on the web. I've sold 3 different MFD kits here myself. Just be patient and know your seller.

Also, contact local dealers and have them see what may be available pre-owned. I bought a Hasselblad CF/39 Multi-Shot back directly from Hasselblad which was a demo camera used by one of their reps. Often you can negotiate more warranty or buy more. I'm sure Phase/Leaf has something like that also.

As far as your subject matter is concerned, it really depends on to what degree you shoot each of them. Are the cars in studio or on location and is it a major shoot with assistants etc., or more casual?

All these cameras will do spectacular portrait work and the choice of lenses and post work will determine whether higher resolution will cause issues when processing. I use a HC100/2.2 and 150N for portraits with the H4D camera ... and use the S2 and 120/2.5 .... in both cases for that shallow DOF look.

Weddings are another matter because of the pace involved. I used to use a H4D/40 along with a 35mm DSLR ... but any of the more modular traditional medium format digital cameras are a handful at weddings ... I now use the Leica S2 which has proven to be much easier and faster to work with, and brings a lot more to the party because I use it for more shots. Large print sales went up once I demo'ed shots from the S2 to clients with bigger print samples.

I just posted a series of wedding images from the S2 in a report here on GetDPI. It also demonstrates the portrait potential both environmental and closer up:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29324

One last note: any of these systems will place a bit more load on your computer system, but RAM, more hard-drive capacity and better Graphic's cards are cheap. In return you not only get higher res images that can be printed larger or cropped more severely, but the images are much more malleable and easier to retouch. Size and bit depth matter.

-Marc

 

[jusuplus]

I have been really thinging of changing my 5dmk2 to phase one, but i havent decided yet witch digital back to get. My options are now p40+ , p45+ . Witch one is better of those two ? P65+ would be better but its much more expensive than those two optios. And what comes for lenses is there a lens for phase that is sharper than canons ef 85 1.2L II version ? And what lens do you recommend for interior shoots ? I shoot cars inside with canons ef 24-70 2.8l and 24mm prime would be nice, even better if its sharper that that blurry canon at 24mm

 

[shlomi]

P40+ is much newer than P45+, will give you better colors and sensitivity and working speed.
On the other hand the P40+ crop can be annoying.

Considering you said you shoot weddings and portraits - I don't think Phase is the right system for you.

For handheld and low light work, I think you will be better off with Hasselblad.
I work with my Phase always mounted on a tripod or stand - I could never get really sharp results handheld.

 

[jusuplus]

I did forget to say that i shoot cars for finnish magazine too. I got my rangers with me allways so light is no problem. Weddings are some sort of hobby for me now but ringflash saves the day for there too. But compraring price at p40+ ,p45+ and p65+ is it worth it get p65+ ? and what hassel has to offer in that price range ?

 

[shlomi]

Facing the same decision I got an Aptus II 8, which is equivalent to P40+.
I preferred the newer generation electronics, and I am very happy with my decision.
With P40+ you also get sensor plus, which gives you very good low light sensitivity.

I don't know the Hasselblad offering, but if your style allows to be always mounted, then Phase is a good choice. The Hasselblad system is closed and good lenses are very expensive. With Phase you have a lot more choices of components and upgrades. My impression is that Hasselblad is the choice for those working handheld and/or shooting moving subjects. If your shooting environment is all static, then there is no reason to stay away from Phase.

 

[jusuplus]

i shoot most of the time hand held cause i have to change picture angle, but is it a problem for phase ?

 

[shlomi]

For me it is a problem, maybe other people have better experiences.

I would say HH -> Hass, or even stay with Canon.