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Thread: Frustrated....

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Frustrated....

    As some of you know, I bought a new 503CWD-II with the 40mm IF lens a few weeks ago. I had to send it back to Hasselblad USA service shortly after getting it because the 40mm IF lens would not trigger the shutter/back at all when mounted on the 503CWD-II (the 40mm worked fine on my 501CM, as did all my other V-series lenses on the 503CWD).

    I got the camera back from Hasselblad on Friday. The good news is that the 40mm lens and camera seems to work fine now....at least, the shutter trips and an image is taken.

    My frustration is this....the CFV-II back is now not fitting tightly on the 503CW camera body. When I first used the camera this morning, I immediately noticed an odd "clicking" sound when I picked it up and mounted it on my tripod. What I've discovered is that I can hold the back while it's mounted on the camera and wiggle it from left to right, which makes a metallic clicking sound, and I can see it move a fraction of an inch. I'm quite sure this was NOT happening before I sent it to Hasselbald for service.....I certainly would have noticed it and asked them to check this out when they worked to sort out the problem with the 40mm IF lens and camera.

    I've tried a film back on the 503CWD and it does the same thing now. All of my 3 Hasselblad film backs are solid as a rock when mounted on my 501CM and 553ELX.

    This very, very slight looseness in the back to camera interface probably will have no effect on the image, but I'll have to say, it's bugging me.

    Generally speaking, I don't think I'm a picky sort of person...but having spent almost $13,000 on this camera and just getting it back from Hasselblad service, well I'm wondering now if I should contact them about this little "problem" at the risk of having to send it back again, or just live with it.

    Yeah, I'm a little frustrated with this.....any thoughts as to what I should do?

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

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    Re: Frustrated....

    on mine, i have to release the lock button to let the sliding release business engage the back on the prongs properly

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    on mine, i have to release the lock button to let the sliding release business engage the back on the prongs properly
    Yes, I've done the same on mine.....no matter what I do, there is still a very slight looseness in the back/camera connection now, resulting in this metallic clicking sound. I even tried using different finders on it (no effect). Does your camera/back fit tightly together with no looseness?

    Gary

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Bummer Gary. Any play in the back is almost certainly not a good thing...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary

    Have you tried the CFV on the 501 and if so does it do the same thing?

    I had some metallic clicking with a film back on my 501 until I learned the trick of assuring the release was off until the back was securely seating.

    I never noticed any issues with either the film or digital back on my 501 with regard to image quality.

    Nonetheless i would send it back to hasselblad with a request for rapid turnaround and I think they will take good care of you. My interactions with them have proven them to be a top quality service organization. Wish Leica were half as good!

    Woody

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Sounds like the mounting pins loosened up or latch
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Bummer Gary. Any play in the back is almost certainly not a good thing...
    I'm worried that might be the case, but I didn't know if a very, very slight amount of looseness is within the range of acceptable tolerances or not. It doesn't look like there is more than a fraction of a millimeter of movement...but it's just enough to feel, hear and see, which is disturbing/annoying, even for me.

    With equipment like this, you want to feel that it is "solid as a rock", not "loosey, goosey".

    Gary

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary sorry to say even the slightest looseness can be deadly with a digital back in regard to image quality. May want to call Hassy and see what they say and what can be done.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Frustrated....

    My CFV-II back is rock solid fit on the 203FE, but can be slightly wiggled on the 503CW that came with the back, and has a little less play on my older 503CW ... none of them have any shooting issues at all. None.

    Same thing with the first version of the CFV I had.

    If it bugs you that much, send it back. I wouldn't, it's got nothing to do with actual image making .... with the cavet that I'm not there to experience yours and how much play it may have.

    What you do not want is it being too tight. Then you won't be able to get the darn thing to release.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Gary sorry to say even the slightest looseness can be deadly with a digital back in regard to image quality. May want to call Hassy and see what they say and what can be done.
    Thanks Guy, Jack and everyone.....I think I will call Hasselblad on Monday. I wasn't sure whether to contact them about something that might seem very picky and be within the range of acceptable tolerances.

    I did try the CFV back on my 501CM and it fits a little tighter....not as snugly as my film backs, but more so than it does on the 503CWD body. It's probably just a very slight adjustment to the hooks or something that is required. Unfortunately, a little adjustment is also what Hasselblad said was required to sort out the 503CWD & 40mm IF lens problem....just a very slight adjustment because the tolerances were so close. It would be nice if they got everything adjusted before the camera was sold or sent to the customer the first time...oh well, I guess nothing's perfect.

    I'm sure I'll get this all sorted out eventually and will have many years of enjoyment and excellent images to look forward to in the years ahead with this camera. It's just a little frustrating to start off this way.

    Thanks again.

    Gary

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    My CFV-II back is rock solid fit on the 203FE, but can be slightly wiggled on the 503CW that came with the back, and has a little less play on my older 503CW ... none of them have any shooting issues at all. None.

    Same thing with the first version of the CFV I had.

    If it bugs you that much, send it back. I wouldn't, it's got nothing to do with actual image making .... with the cavet that I'm not there to experience yours and how much play it may have.

    What you do not want is it being too tight. Then you won't be able to get the darn thing to release.
    I should have waited to hear from you Marc.....I think you have more experience with this camera and back that anyone.

    I think I'll try to get out tomorrow and shoot 20-30 images and see how they look, before I make that call to Hasselbald.

    I don't want to be picky about this....it was just a noticeable difference between how snugly the CFV back fit on the 503CWD when I got it originally vs when it came back from Hasselblad service on Friday and how my film backs fit on the other bodies. I had not experienced this "looseness" with any of my film backs on the 501CM or 553ELX before....the solid feel of the Hasselblad cameras and lenses was always something that impressed me and which I enjoyed.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 23rd August 2008 at 17:47.

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary

    May I make a suggestion. It is better to lose your camera and back to Hassy service for a week or two than to go through the next 10 years being "bugged" by this loose fit. Send it back to hassy, regardless of whether you see image degradation or not. Once the back is "tuned" to the body you will stop thinking about it, forever. But I agree with Marc, the last thing you want is a back to body fit which is so tight you can't release it easily. Now there is a problem

    Woody

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    Re: Frustrated....

    As the head of tech services and support of a similar company I can tell your dealer will want to at least hear from you that you have the problem.

    They can help tell you decide whether it goes in for repair, whether its within tolerance, or exactly what tests you can do to decide.

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    As the head of tech services and support of a similar company I can tell your dealer will want to at least hear from you that you have the problem.

    They can help tell you decide whether it goes in for repair, whether its within tolerance, or exactly what tests you can do to decide.

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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    Doug,

    Yes, Steve Hendrix at PPR has been terrific in helping me get the original problem with the camera and 40mm IF lens sorted out. He contacted Hasselbald for me and arranged for me to ship the camera back to Hasselblad USA service in New Jersey (at Hasselblad's expense) etc. I just got the camera back on Friday, was happy to see that the original problem had been fixed and then noticed this little problem. I suppose I should have just called Steve, instead of posting here, but as my original note indicated.....I was feeling pretty frustrated at the time and frankly, wondered if I was overreacting or not. I appreciate hearing from all of you re your experience and thoughts.....I'll call Steve on Monday an see what he thinks I should do.

    Thanks again everyone.....I'm sure I'll get this sorted out one way or another and be a happy MFDB shooter very soon.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Steve Hendrix sent me a note today re this slight looseness in my CFV back on the 503CWD. He checked a CFV back there at PPR on a 503CX and it did the same thing. So, based on this info and Marc's experience noted above, I'll consider it "within spec" and just accept it as one of those quirks of life (or Swedish engineering and manufacturing). I wish it weren't the case, but I'll try not to let it distract me from enjoying the camera and (hopefully) capturing some decent images in the years ahead.

    I need to remember that perfection is not always achievable. Life is full of little annoyances which need to be kept in perspective. Sometimes, that's hard to do. Guess I'm more picky than I was willing to admit.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary,

    if it makes you feel any better I had a touch of lateral give' betwen my Leaf back and my H1 when I was using this combination. after a lot of testing and sweating - I proved to myself that in fact it didnt negatively imact on the sharpness of the images or the qualty of the files I was getting.

    Make a few nice pics and you wil feel like the system is a friend with a foible.it really is a very nice set-up and I was very tempted to make this system my second back.

    Cheers

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    Re: Frustrated....

    If the looseness bugs you (it would probably bug me too) why not just stick a tiny bit of gaffers tape or a folded piece of paper between the back and the body to snug it up a bit and get rid of the rattle. Also, I wouldn't worry about being overly picky in this crowd... I suspect most of us are.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Thanks Peter and David....good thoughts and suggestions which I will take to heart. I might just try that gaffer's tape suggestion David and see if this does the trick for me. I just know that metallic click is going to bug me every time I pick up the camera....for awhile anyways.

    Gary

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    It would bug me sorry to say.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    One caution on the gaffer tape thing --- it might push your back too far, enough to alter the proper plane of focus...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Frustrated....

    One tape that folks use to shim lens adapters is metallic duct tape (the real heating system stuff) - apparently it's a consistent 0.001" thick. Try one layer at a time on the camera side?

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Steve Hendrix sent me a note today re this slight looseness in my CFV back on the 503CWD. He checked a CFV back there at PPR on a 503CX and it did the same thing.
    If Steve isn't worried then I'd go with the gaffers tape and try to forget about it. He knows his stuff.

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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  23. #23
    thsinar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary,

    If it can give you some kind of relief, then I can tell you that I have shot many different MF bodies, among them Hasselbald V bodies, with digital backs: some did fit perfectly, some others very tightly and then some wiggled, more or less. It did in most cases not affect the focus, in some rare cases it did (obviously those with the most loose attachment): in these cases the camera body had to be sent in for some adjustments and overhaul, or then we (Sinar) used to provided customized adapters. Therefore I would simply run some tests and see if this is the case.

    What wonders me in your case, is that you had a body with back which seemed to match perfectly. And then you get it back and it moves. This seems odd to me and should not be the case.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    If Steve isn't worried then I'd go with the gaffers tape and try to forget about it. He knows his stuff.

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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    Hey Doug

    Does Steve know more now that he is a Phase rep? LOL

    Woody

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    Re: Frustrated....

    since it seems the common out of whack element is the 503 body, i would ask for another one. for over $10k, a misfit is unacceptable, and they certainly are able to get it right on most bodies.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Gary,

    What wonders me in your case, is that you had a body with back which seemed to match perfectly. And then you get it back and it moves. This seems odd to me and should not be the case.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    That troubled me also when I got the camera/CFV/40mm lens back from Hasselblad service last week. I understand that they had to make some adjustments to the camera, back or lens (or maybe all 3) in order to get the 40mm lens to work with the 503CWD body and CFV back properly. I assumed that this adjustment in someway just slightly lessened the degree to which the back is snugged up to the camera by those two prongs/hooks at the top. I am sure I would have noticed the metallic clicking noise during the week I used the camera, before I sent it into service. When I pulled it out of the box from Hasselblad service and went to put it on a tripod to test the 40mm & camera, I noticed the clicking sound almost immediately.

    I trust the advice and experience of Steve and Marc, so I'm really not worried now about this having any affect on the image quality (and I haven't seen anything in the images to indicate it does). It is after all, just a fraction of a millimeter movement in the back, sort of a clockwise/counterclockwise rotational movement. If it wasn't for that darn clicking sound I hear almost everytime I pick it up or put it on a tripod now, I might have never noticed the small amount of movement/looseness.

    My wife is MUCH too understanding and polite to say this to me, but she's probably thinking "if it's not affecting the image, just get over it and move on". I've certainly taken up too much bandwidth on the forum with this one already....sorry folks.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

  27. #27
    tetsrfun
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    Re: Frustrated....

    After reading this, I checked mine. When the back is nearly in place and the small button is pushed, the "click" (cl-unkkk) is not subtle.

    Steve

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    since it seems the common out of whack element is the 503 body, i would ask for another one. for over $10k, a misfit is unacceptable, and they certainly are able to get it right on most bodies.
    Every 200 series body I've used with the CFV (3) has been tight as can be. Every 503CW and 501CM showed some play with the CFV ... but not very much. So sending in the 503CW camera for an exchange won't guarantee an air tight fit.

    Again, I'm not there to see how much play there is, so your mileage may vary.

    With many backs that fit multiple cameras, (in this case: 200 series, 500 series, SWCs, Arc bodies, viewcameras,) it was not uncommon to use shims to zero in the backs.

    Send the CFV back AND the 503CW camera into service and tell them you want it to NOT have any play in it. But then don't try to sell it to a 200 series camera owner later

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey Doug

    Does Steve know more now that he is a Phase rep? LOL

    Woody
    He knows the same amount. I'm just more willing to point it out now :-).

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    He knows the same amount. I'm just more willing to point it out now :-).

    Doug Peterson
    I'm almost ready to follow Steve Hendrix's example and jump to Phase One.......

    No, no.....just kidding. The 503CWD is a great camera. Can't go wrong with 9 micron photosites and Zeiss optics, right?

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Learning to relax and not sweat the small stuff.......

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    Re: Frustrated....

    No need to apologize for the length of the thread. As great as some gear is, sometimes little things, the technical itches you can't scratch, become exceptionally annoying over time and detract from the pleasure of use.

    It depends on your personality of course, but I know it would annoy the crap out of me until I'd resolved it - regardless of how over-the-top the IQ.

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I'm almost ready to follow Steve Hendrix's example and jump to Phase One.......

    No, no.....just kidding. The 503CWD is a great camera. Can't go wrong with 9 micron photosites and Zeiss optics, right?

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Learning to relax and not sweat the small stuff.......
    Gary

    No matter if the images are not affected. If you are bugged about the wiggle then send it back to Hassy and have them shim it or whatever it takes to make you happy. This is a $12,500 investment we are talking about here and you should be deriving pleasure from it. I am sure Hassy can have it back to you withing two weeks, particularly if Steve, or Doug Chapman his replacement at PPR paves the way for you.

    Woody

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    Re: Frustrated....

    I certainly would send it back to Hasselblad. Even if you bought a Phase One back I do not think you would tolerate something that did not exactly right. I would think that if the back is moving that it might cause wear between the back and the camera.

    Jason

  34. #34
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary, the back should not move at all. I use a 503CW with a Phase one P20 and the back fits perfectly. It doesn't move a single milimeter. That's the way it must be.

    Certainly, Hasselblad is doing you a really bad service. So send the camera back to them so they provide you with what you've paid for.

    I think I could write a whole article about how bad Hassselblad is doing certain things but I'll stop here.

    I won't tell you what to do but if you're still in the position of being able to return the kit I'd do it and I'd switch to phase. I was in the same stage when chosing a square back and I went with Phase One because their realibility. This system is rock solid and stable.

    Just my opinion...

    /Samuel

  35. #35
    thsinar
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    Re: Frustrated....

    hi Samuel,

    with all due respect (and we know and respect each other), I don't think that this is a reason to switch to another brand.
    And to the contrary to what you are experiencing with your combo, there are differences between the different MF bodies, being it Hasselblad or others, from a same model: I have experienced it x-times, with different MF body brands, and with different back brands. Sometimes it did fit perfectly, sometimes too tight, and then more than often wobbling a bit.

    This is actually not due to the back, but to the camera body: all backs are made under very tight tolerances, up to 1/1000th of a mm, concerning adaption and mechanical parts. MF bodies which were made for film have much less tighter tolerances.

    As I said, this can be adjusted, respectively corrected. I would hope that Hasselblad, if contacted because of such, would be flexible enough to either fix this or exchange the 503 body.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Axelsson View Post
    Gary, the back should not move at all. I use a 503CW with a Phase one P20 and the back fits perfectly. It doesn't move a single milimeter. That's the way it must be.

    Certainly, Hasselblad is doing you a really bad service. So send the camera back to them so they provide you with what you've paid for.

    I think I could write a whole article about how bad Hassselblad is doing certain things but I'll stop here.

    I won't tell you what to do but if you're still in the position of being able to return the kit I'd do it and I'd switch to phase. I was in the same stage when chosing a square back and I went with Phase One because their realibility. This system is rock solid and stable.

    Just my opinion...

    /Samuel

  36. #36
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    hi Samuel,

    with all due respect (and we know and respect each other), I don't think that this is a reason to switch to another brand.
    And to the contrary to what you are experiencing with your combo, there are differences between the different MF bodies, being it Hasselblad or others, from a same model: I have experienced it x-times, with different MF body brands, and with different back brands. Sometimes it did fit perfectly, sometimes too tight, and then more than often wobbling a bit.

    This is actually not due to the back, but to the camera body: all backs are made under very tight tolerances, up to 1/1000th of a mm, concerning adaption and mechanical parts. MF bodies which were made for film have much less tighter tolerances.

    As I said, this can be adjusted, respectively corrected. I would hope that Hasselblad, if contacted because of such, would be flexible enough to either fix this or exchange the 503 body.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Thierry,
    Of course it's not a reason to switch. I name switching because Gary himself was thinking about it and I'm using a 503 with a Phase back.

    But digital backs and cameras are designed with medical precision and a back that moves is obviously not a good or conmon thing.
    Hasselblad is not doing a favor to none sending a defective package.

    But the worst thing is that this is the low end kit, and this shows how much they care about it. They still haven't announced the CWD II at their website (or I can't find it)...


    /Samuel

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    hi Samuel,

    with all due respect (and we know and respect each other), I don't think that this is a reason to switch to another brand.
    And to the contrary to what you are experiencing with your combo, there are differences between the different MF bodies, being it Hasselblad or others, from a same model: I have experienced it x-times, with different MF body brands, and with different back brands. Sometimes it did fit perfectly, sometimes too tight, and then more than often wobbling a bit.

    This is actually not due to the back, but to the camera body: all backs are made under very tight tolerances, up to 1/1000th of a mm, concerning adaption and mechanical parts. MF bodies which were made for film have much less tighter tolerances.

    As I said, this can be adjusted, respectively corrected. I would hope that Hasselblad, if contacted because of such, would be flexible enough to either fix this or exchange the 503 body.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Good response Theirry. I have experienced exactly the same thing with different backs and different cameras.

    My Kodak ProBack 645C on my Contax 645 was adjusted so poorly that I couldn't achieve close focus with the 80/2 and once had a Leaf back that locked on the Mamiya camera ... in both cases back and camera body had to be sent in for adjustment. Kodak argued with me saying it was Kyocere's fault, but Leaf was so fast to act it was like they sent the "Flash" to get it and bring it back. Finally Kodak relented and adjusted everything perfectly.

    I called my dealer about another subject and also asked him about this issue and his response was exactly the same as Thierry's ... it can, and does, happen with all of them ... including Phase One backs on any number of different cameras.

    He also said that you used to be able to do micro adjustments to the grip prongs (top/back) of the 500 camera, but I looked and don't think that is possible any longer as access is now blocked from inside the body.

    Again, on mine it's very minor and has zero effect on the images ... it might, if you gripped the body and back and torqued them while shooting with your third hand ... otherwise mine fits perfectly flush.

    Just send both back to Hasselblad to be "married" better I personally wouldn't ask for a new body since even a remote chance of a repeat would really be frustrating.

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    Re: Frustrated....

    If a digital back is moving around on a body, then doesn't it also have the possiblity of causing more then normal wear on the Camera body and the Back? I would think that would be something to consider as well.

    Jason

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Quote Originally Posted by ComicDom1 View Post
    If a digital back is moving around on a body, then doesn't it also have the possiblity of causing more then normal wear on the Camera body and the Back? I would think that would be something to consider as well.

    Jason
    Man, if it's "moving around" that much I'd express that sucker back to Hasselblad immediately.

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Glad to know I'm not the first one to have experienced this little problem.

    I truly was "just kidding" when I mentioned jumping ship to Phase One. I've got too much invested in Hasselblad gear, besides which, the 503CWD-II kit with the 40mm IF lens was a terrific value and I know it's capable of delivering outstanding images. I'm quite sure I will be very happy with it, over the long run.

    I really don't think the slight amount of movement (a fraction of a millimeter, just enough to notice) is going to have any affect (or is it effect?, I can never remember) on either the image or any wear and tear on the back or camera.

    It's just one of those annoyances, something you notice that you wish wasn't there....especially on a very expensive piece of otherwise finely engineered and built equipment.

    It's certainly not far enough out of adjustment that I would want to have it exchanged for another body or back (best I can tell from reading the posts above, it's probably just needs an adjustment to the prongs on the body to snug up the back). I'd worry about getting a replacement camera that once again didn't work properly with the 40mm IF lens!

    So I think I will call PPR or Hasselblad next week and see what they suggest.....who knows, maybe it's a relatively simple thing for Hasselblad service to sort out for me. I guess I'm just a little apprehensive, based on past experiences with other equipment, cars etc......you send it in to be repaired, one thing gets fixed and then something else is out of whack or not working when it's returned.....just as happened this time when I sent the 503CWD & 40mm lens in to be adjusted initially. I'm probably just being a little paranoid, if you know what I mean.

    What's that saying...."Better the devil you know than devil you don't."? That's kind of how I'm feeling about this right now.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Last edited by bensonga; 30th August 2008 at 23:15.

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    Re: Frustrated....

    Gary

    When you call PPR ask for David Chapman now that Steve is gone. David has been at PPR for 19 years and is their digital sales manager. I have spoken to him recently and he is anxious to get started transferring the relationships from Steve to himself.

    Woody

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